Alternative GAA Season Structure: The McNamee System

[omaghjoe]

I like it, well thought out and tries to address all the issues around at the moment. I would agree with a previous post that I like how the championship lasts all summer but I'm sure I could live through it and also maybe this would put the focus back on the club game lasting all summer. Defo worth a shot.

One thing that I would say would be a big obstacle to its introduction is that it is a huge shift from the current system. That was the thing about the backdoor it just sort of piggy backed on top of the straight knockout system so it was easy to implement, as big a change as this will have the old stuck in their ways types (and there is alot around...this is Ireland!) up in arms even tho they won't be able to explain why.

But good job, now whats the next step?...have you gave Jarlath a call yet?

[ONeill]

Seems fair but this bothers me:

- A QF win is worth 2 Championship Entry Points.
- A SF win is worth 4 Championship Entry Points.
- A Final win is worth 6 Championship Entry Points.

Because so many Ulster sides reside in Divs 1-2, a quarter final in Ulster is equivalent to other provincial finals.

I agree with this; may be better to award two points for a win in the championship, regardless of the stage. You could go a stage further and give an extra point if you beat a team two divisions above you or two if they are three above you. Similarly only one point for a win if the winning team is two divisions higher and nothing if Mayo beat London or Leitrim of if Donegal beat Antrim.

See the key thing about the original proposal is that there is next to no complexity or contortion involved... and I'd suggest that the quest for absolute equality such as in the comment quoted here, just adds unnecessary confusion - with minimal to no gains to arise.

For example, given that the leagues would be over before some teams plays in the provincials, which season would we grade teams by? Are Westmeath with 0 points and relegated to D2 really worth more weighting than a D2 team that's recently won promotion with 6 victories out of 7?

I get a continued sense from reading these suggestions that Ulster teams would be penalised as a result of the strength of that province. This folks might actually be true, but in 5 years time it might be the opposite; it might be Leinster that enjoys a golden period of competitiveness. Look at the longer picture and stop trying to find ways of guaranteeing that 7 Ulster side make the last 16. As mentioned previously, if they do the business in the league, then a QF knockout won't matter; they'll still be through to the last 16. This, in my opinion, should play into the hands of a dominant province, and not penalise them.

But that's not the case. Say Donegal win 2 D1 games (probably staving off relegation) and are knocked out in the preliminary round by Monaghan. But Leitrim win all 7 d4 or d3 games and make their provincial final having defeated London and Sligo.

[thewobbler]

I'm finding your logic a bit flawed here O Neill.

Are you suggesting that (in this example) a Donegal team that faces a relegation battle in the league, and gets dumped out of Ulster in round 1, would be hard done by if they weren't awarded a place in the AI Championship?

Personally I don't see it. The system is designed to reward form. In this particular instance Donegal have no form.

They'd probably find it more galling if your example was tweaked as Liatroim winning just 3 D4 games then making the Connacht final was to get them a place (with 12 championship points).

But I'd argue all day and night that in this example it's still clear that Donegal don't deserve a place; they've still lost 6 out of 8 games this year. Chanpionship form suggests liatroim might just about deserve one (although going in as 15th or 16th seed, thy probably won't be around for long)

[Ball Hopper]

Excellent work Wobbler. Feg packets must be a lot bigger than in my day!!  A few minor tweaks might be needed.  Champions should automatically make the following year's 16 and provincial champs must also be guaranteed a slot. Kerry or Cork could lose all 7 league games, winning Munster with no quarter final game would leave them short on points with just 10.

Your example shows Westmeath going from Div 1 to no championship football...no incentive to go for promotion out of Div 2 it would seem. That is a problem.

How about adding one more series of games...those seeded 9 to 16 playoff with those 17 to 24. A Div 1 team should be guaranteed no worse than a 24 seed would fix the Westmeath issue.  I suppose you could add another weekend before that where 17 to 24 play 25 to 32...everyone is in the hunt then. No replays is a good step. Finish it all by Aug 31 must be the rule.

Should provincial championships be seeded based on league position?  Ulster's prelim game would be Fermanagh/Antrim this year to be the 8 seed, or were Armagh behind Fermanagh after the 7 league games?  The others are guaranteed your points from a provincial QF.  1 v 8, 2 v7, etc for the rest of the Ulster championship.

Let the debate continue, Irish papers please copy.

[thewobbler]

Excellent work Wobbler. Feg packets must be a lot bigger than in my day!!  A few minor tweaks might be needed.  Champions should automatically make the following year's 16 and provincial champs must also be guaranteed a slot. Kerry or Cork could lose all 7 league games, winning Munster with no quarter final game would leave them short on points with just 10.

Your example shows Westmeath going from Div 1 to no championship football...no incentive to go for promotion out of Div 2 it would seem. That is a problem.

How about adding one more series of games...those seeded 9 to 16 playoff with those 17 to 24. A Div 1 team should be guaranteed no wtorse than a 24 seed would fix the Westmeath issue.  I suppose you could add another weekend before that where 17 to 24 play 25 to 32...everyone is in the hunt then. No replays is a good step. Finish it all by Aug 31 must be the rule.

Should provincial championships be seeded based on league position?  Ulster's prelim game would be Fermanagh/Antrim this year to be the 8 seed, or were Armagh behind Fermanagh after the 7 league games?  The others are guaranteed your points from a provincial QF.  1 v 8, 2 v7, etc for the rest of the Ulster championship.

Let the debate continue, Irish papers please copy.

No, no stop. Cease and desist. You've plastered my rare fillet steak in fish sauce. You're making homer Simpson's car.

We don't need 24 teams in the AI. The system is devised as a quality control measure, not as a series of back doors to allow for freakish fluctuations in performance.

If a team goes 0 and 7 in the league, I couldn't give a damn if they win their provincial final by 50 points; the only logical conclusion is that their entire province is dismal that current season.

Last year's winners getting a bye? Why? It's all about this season.

Westmeath's incentive is the same as every other footballer in Ireland - to play to their best of their abilities.

[ONeill]

I'm finding your logic a bit flawed here O Neill.

Are you suggesting that (in this example) a Donegal team that faces a relegation battle in the league, and gets dumped out of Ulster in round 1, would be hard done by if they weren't awarded a place in the AI Championship?

Personally I don't see it. The system is designed to reward form. In this particular instance Donegal have no form.

They'd probably find it more galling if your example was tweaked as Liatroim winning just 3 D4 games then making the Connacht final was to get them a place (with 12 championship points).

But I'd argue all day and night that in this example it's still clear that Donegal don't deserve a place; they've still lost 6 out of 8 games this year. Chanpionship form suggests liatroim might just about deserve one (although going in as 15th or 16th seed, thy probably won't be around for long)

But it's punishing teams with stiffer opposition. Donegal would hammer Leitrim by 20 points if they met but Leitrim progress further because they played 9 games against D3 or D4 opposition (league and SFC) whilst Donegal scrapped out narrow defeats to Kerry/Mayo etc.

So, effectively, in order to gain enough points it might be in a county's interest (not all...the middlin brigade) to stay in D3 or D2 and avoid a wipe out in a higher league.

Tyrone won 1 game in D1 (Mayo), drew with Dubs, Kerry and Derry, and lost by a point to Cork. Then they exited to Donegal in the SFC prelim. Fermanagh won 5 D3 games and beat Antrim in the SFC. Or Longford won 6 D4 games. Surely there's an imbalance there that better sides, with better footballers, sit it out because they were mixing it with the heavyweights since Feb.

You want the best gaelic footballers in the latter stages, not a D4 side in great form by beating other D4 sides.

[DuffleKing]

A possible tweak is a different mechanism for earning points which includes an award of points for a loss and the division which a league loss comes in denotes a weighted "loss" award

[rrhf]

I'm finding your logic a bit flawed here O Neill.

Are you suggesting that (in this example) a Donegal team that faces a relegation battle in the league, and gets dumped out of Ulster in round 1, would be hard done by if they weren't awarded a place in the AI Championship?

Personally I don't see it. The system is designed to reward form. In this particular instance Donegal have no form.

They'd probably find it more galling if your example was tweaked as Liatroim winning just 3 D4 games then making the Connacht final was to get them a place (with 12 championship points).

But I'd argue all day and night that in this example it's still clear that Donegal don't deserve a place; they've still lost 6 out of 8 games this year. Chanpionship form suggests liatroim might just about deserve one (although going in as 15th or 16th seed, thy probably won't be around for long)

But it's punishing teams with stiffer opposition. Donegal would hammer Leitrim by 20 points if they met but Leitrim progress further because they played 9 games against D3 or D4 opposition (league and SFC) whilst Donegal scrapped out narrow defeats to Kerry/Mayo etc.

So, effectively, in order to gain enough points it might be in a county's interest (not all...the middlin brigade) to stay in D3 or D2 and avoid a wipe out in a higher league.

Tyrone won 1 game in D1 (Mayo), drew with Dubs, Kerry and Derry, and lost by a point to Cork. Then they exited to Donegal in the SFC prelim. Fermanagh won 5 D3 games and beat Antrim in the SFC. Or Longford won 6 D4 games. Surely there's an imbalance there that better sides, with better footballers, sit it out because they were mixing it with the heavyweights since Feb.

You want the best gaelic footballers in the latter stages, not a D4 side in great form by beating other D4 sides.

A d4 side - what a smashing idea.  Let's buy some land in balls bridge.

[thewobbler]

Yeah but the problem is O'Neill, there can't be a perfect system.

The same way the FA Cup 3rd round will always see a few all-premiership ties, or there'll be a conference in the NFL with 3 genuine Super Bowl contenders, or there's always a group of death in the RWC and the Heineken and the World Cup. Unless you can find a completely impartial human being to handpick the draw, then the finer points always come down to an element of fate and luck.

The problem with weighting knockout games is that it doesn't change this one iota. There will always be an element of chance depending on the form of the competitors. My preference is that every team knows before the first ball is kicked that it's entirely up to them if they make the last 16. That's the beauty of league football.

By the way, with the weighting suggested, there is pretty much zero chance of any more than 6 teams from Divisions 3 and 4 getting through. It weighte to favour the top sides.

[ONeill]

Yeah but the problem is O'Neill, there can't be a perfect system.

The same way the FA Cup 3rd round will always see a few all-premiership ties, or there'll be a conference in the NFL with 3 genuine Super Bowl contenders, or there's always a group of death in the RWC and the Heineken and the World Cup. Unless you can find a completely impartial human being to handpick the draw, then the finer points always come down to an element of fate and luck.

The FA Cup is a cup competition. Teams like Millwall and Cardiff can reach the final. The GAA season should see the best teams battle it out - not a lottery or secondary competition like the English FA Cup. If a conference has 3 Super Bowl contenders, they'll probably go as far as it's possible in the post-season.

Your system sees top sides handicapped because of their standing. Derry could lose all 7 D1 games narrowly and still be far too good for any D4 or most (probably all) D3 sides but have to sit it out. I'm not happy seeing our best gaelic footballers twiddling their thumbs (county-wise) because they're a heavyweight.

The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.

[Rufus T Firefly]

The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.

This. A thousand times this.

I love the Ulster Championship but it has to go in the interests of the greater good. It's never lost on me how the provinces continue to hold such a grip - whether it is the outrageous contortions that go into having a meaningful Leinster Hurling Championship, or the oft trotted out alternative that is four football groups of eight based on North, South, East and West.

And by the way Wobbler - I doff my hat to your effort - the best yet to try and retain the provinces and also have a fair Championship. But even then the efforts needed to retain the provincials leads to a complex series of mathematical formulas. 

[highorlow]

Jimmy's robbing ideas?

His IT article today is strangely familiar to wobblers idea for the championship structure.

Let the debate continue, Irish papers please copy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fsport%2Fgaelic-games%2Fjim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993

[Hardy]

Your system sees top sides handicapped because of their standing. Derry could lose all 7 D1 games narrowly and still be far too good for any D4 or most (probably all) D3 sides but have to sit it out. I'm not happy seeing our best gaelic footballers twiddling their thumbs (county-wise) because they're a heavyweight.

They are not a top side if the lose all seven league games. They're losers. And if the league actually meant something, as it would in this system, how could you argue for a seven-time competitive loser getting a place in the All-Ireland series?

The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.

The reform of the system comes down to GAA politics and politics is the art of the possible. It is obvious that the provincial system will not be abolished, however logical the case for it. It's the turkeys/Christmas argument, as well as the stranglehold the holy cow of Tradition has on the development of the games.

Politics is also the art of compromise. Settling for nothing less than the ideal is a recipe for failure to achieve anything. This is by far the best accommodation of the political realities I've seen in any reform proposal and, to my mind, it compromise very little to achieve a hell of a lot.

[Hardy]

the efforts needed to retain the provincials leads to a complex series of mathematical formulas. 

Complex? Hardly.

[Esmarelda]

Your system sees top sides handicapped because of their standing. Derry could lose all 7 D1 games narrowly and still be far too good for any D4 or most (probably all) D3 sides but have to sit it out. I'm not happy seeing our best gaelic footballers twiddling their thumbs (county-wise) because they're a heavyweight.

They are not a top side if the lose all seven league games. They're losers. And if the league actually meant something, as it would in this system, how could you argue for a seven-time competitive loser getting a place in the All-Ireland series?

The only way is to abandon the ridiculously uneven provincial systems.

The reform of the system comes down to GAA politics and politics is the art of the possible. It is obvious that the provincial system will not be abolished, however logical the case for it. It's the turkeys/Christmas argument, as well as the stranglehold the holy cow of Tradition has on the development of the games.

Politics is also the art of compromise. Settling for nothing less than the ideal is a recipe for failure to achieve anything. This is by far the best accommodation of the political realities I've seen in any reform proposal and, to my mind, it compromise very little to achieve a hell of a lot.

Perhaps not but take Westemeath a couple of years ago. They get promoted to division 1 and struggle in the top division and lose all seven games. I'd have thought it harsh not to play in the tournament at the expense of someone in Division 4.

I might have to start a Rossfan fan-club as nobody seems to take any notice of his much better proposal, in my opinion.