Lucinda Creighton - the answer to all our problems !!

[trileacman]

Another new political party - Social Democrats. headed by Catherine Murphy, Róisín Shortall and Stephen Donnelly

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0715/714894-social-democrats/

Having three leaders is a little strange to say the least but from that RTE article, their policies are:

- will abolish water charges and pause the water-metering programme if in Government
- in favour of a two-to-one division in favour of spending over taxation in the budget.

We'll spend twice the amount we earn?  WTF?[/list]

[armaghniac]

If they're looking at a "Nordic" model then it's higher taxes that will be paying for it but your services would be expected to be proportionately better also

What's the tax rate in the nordic countries? When you factor in USC, PAYE, PRSI, VAT etc etc, is there much room for a hike?

There is quite a bit of room to go for taxes generally, whatever about specific rates

[Hardy]

Another new political party - Social Democrats. headed by Catherine Murphy, Róisín Shortall and Stephen Donnelly

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0715/714894-social-democrats/

Having three leaders is a little strange to say the least but from that RTE article, their policies are:

- will abolish water charges and pause the water-metering programme if in Government
- in favour of a two-to-one division in favour of spending over taxation in the budget.
- favour repealing the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution.
- increase taxation to fund a Nordic child care system, they said they would extend paid paternity leave and establish child clinics.
- favours the abolition of the Official Secrets Act
- currently working on a number of policies, including in relation to health and childcare.
- increase paid parental leave to 12 months initially – would cost €360m a year if it was to be introduced all in one go, but numbers on the live register would drop because people would be needed to fill parental vacancies. For each person removed from the live register, it saves the Government €20,000.
- Universal access to healthcare for everyone. She added that they believe in the current Programme for Government, but that it has not been delivered.
intend to intend to contest as many seats as possible and are appealing for people who share the same values, goals and ambitions to make a better Ireland for the future.
- will apply a whip on confidence votes and budgets, but will have a free vote on other occasions[/list]

All grand, but how will they pay for all of this.

Especially the caring for Nordic children bit?

[Rossfan]

Very disappointed they didn't include that it will only rain at night .

[Canalman]

Sod all that relevant stuff. I want to know their views on the 1922 treaty. Pro or anti ?

[AZOffaly]

Sod all that relevant stuff. I want to know their views on the 1922 treaty. Pro or anti

Both

[Bord na Mona man]

Sod all that relevant stuff. I want to know their views on the 1922 treaty. Pro or anti ?

They're anti everything surely?

[magpie seanie]

If they're looking at a "Nordic" model then it's higher taxes that will be paying for it but your services would be expected to be proportionately better also

What's the tax rate in the nordic countries? When you factor in USC, PAYE, PRSI, VAT etc etc, is there much room for a hike?

There is quite a bit of room to go for taxes generally, whatever about specific rates

What is "tax revenue" for the purposes of this chart? It simply cannot include USC. This must be purely for Income Tax and if so it's worthless.

[armaghniac]

What is "tax revenue" for the purposes of this chart? It simply cannot include USC. This must be purely for Income Tax and if so it's worthless.

A very Irish response as Irish people are convinced that they are crucified with taxes, without any real evidence of this. Irish GDP has some issues, but even adjusting for that Ireland is a bit like the UK and the Irish government taxes and spends significantly less than European governments generally. Now that is fair enough if people are happy with that, but some demand European style services with US style taxes, in Ireland even the left wing propose tax cuts, although only for the "workers".

[muppet]

What is "tax revenue" for the purposes of this chart? It simply cannot include USC. This must be purely for Income Tax and if so it's worthless.

A very Irish response as Irish people are convinced that they are crucified with taxes, without any real evidence of this. Irish GDP has some issues, but even adjusting for that Ireland is a bit like the UK and the Irish government taxes and spends significantly less than European governments generally. Now that is fair enough if people are happy with that, but some demand European style services with US style taxes, in Ireland even the left wing propose tax cuts, although only for the "workers".

As you suggest, GNP would be a better comparison, but you didn't answer Seanie's question.

I will add a further one.

Does it include all of our other 'latent' taxes?

Also you would need to compare unemployment rates. Less revenue versus GDP/GNP is great, but not if it is being generated by a relatively smaller section of the particular society. In that case the scope for increasing tax (if Ireland was the example used) is to either increase taxation on that small section of society, or tax the poor by bringing those outside the tax net into it. Best of luck with that!

[armaghniac]

What is "tax revenue" for the purposes of this chart? It simply cannot include USC. This must be purely for Income Tax and if so it's worthless.

A very Irish response as Irish people are convinced that they are crucified with taxes, without any real evidence of this. Irish GDP has some issues, but even adjusting for that Ireland is a bit like the UK and the Irish government taxes and spends significantly less than European governments generally. Now that is fair enough if people are happy with that, but some demand European style services with US style taxes, in Ireland even the left wing propose tax cuts, although only for the "workers".

As you suggest, GNP would be a better comparison, but you didn't answer Seanie's question.

I will add a further one.

Does it include all of our other 'latent' taxes?

I am not familiar with the details of the OECD's work in this respect, but I'm sure they are competant.
But your question (and Seanie's) presumes that the OECD is leaving out taxes in Ireland's case while including them for everyone else, although they also have all these sorts of "latent" taxes (whatever a latent tax is). I'd say the OECD classification is consistent, so if Ireland is only collecting and spending three quarters are much as other places than this is accurate enough.

Also you would need to compare unemployment rates. Less revenue versus GDP/GNP is great, but not if it is being generated by a relatively smaller section of the particular society. In that case the scope for increasing tax (if Ireland was the example used) is to either increase taxation on that small section of society, or tax the poor by bringing those outside the tax net into it. Best of luck with that!

[muppet]

The link suggests it is a Eurostat source. Is that not different to the OECD or do they get their data from the OECD?

[muppet]

But back to my point, if Ireland is raising taxes from a smaller proportion of the community, i.e. the workers and in particular workers in the tax net, then the scope to increase is not as much as the graph might appear to show.

Also, latent taxes would be, for example, Water Charges, Household charges and (presumably) VAT etc. These are taxes raised from outside the workers group as well as from within.

Just comparing VAT rates from a few countries:

http://www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/european-vat-rates/eu-vat-rates/

Denmark VAT Rate

Standard VAT rate: 25% (Jan 1992)

Reduced VAT rates: none


Germany VAT Rate

Standard VAT rate: 19% (Jan 2007)

Reduced VAT rates: 7% foodstuffs, books, medical, passenger transport, newspapers, admission to cultural and entertainment events, hotels


Greece VAT Rate

Standard VAT rate: 23% (Jul 2010)

Reduced VAT rates: 13% foodstuffs, pharmaceuticals, medical, admission to cultural sporting and entertainment events

Reduced VAT rates: 6.5% (Jan 2011) books, newspapers, hotels


Ireland VAT Rate

Standard VAT rate: 23% (Jan 2012)

Reduced VAT rates: 13.5% medical

Reduced VAT rates: 9% newspapers, admission to cultural sporting and entertainment events, hotels, restaurants

Reduced VAT rates: 4.8% foodstuffs

Reduced VAT rates: nil% books, medical products, children's clothing

[armaghniac]

The link suggests it is a Eurostat source. Is that not different to the OECD or do they get their data from the OECD?

Good point. However, the ratios for the OECD are similar I haven't compared them exactly.

But back to my point, if Ireland is raising taxes from a smaller proportion of the community, i.e. the workers and in particular workers in the tax net, then the scope to increase is not as much as the graph might appear to show.

Unemployment in Ireland is about the Euro average and less tax was raised when we had little unemployment also.
And if some people in Ireland are not in the tax net that is a policy decision that Denmark has not made.

And these places do have significant latent taxes, but these "Social Democrats" launched today want to abolish water charges, which every nordic country has. http://cf.datawrapper.de/uj7l5/2/
What these "Social Democrats" fail to realise, or more likely know well but won't admit, that if you don't have water charges, USC etc then you can't have nordic services unless you had such a high marginal rate of income tax that no qualified person would work at weekends and any mobile person would leave.  Frauds, all of them.

[muppet]

The link suggests it is a Eurostat source. Is that not different to the OECD or do they get their data from the OECD?

Good point. However, the ratios for the OECD are similar I haven't compared them exactly.

But back to my point, if Ireland is raising taxes from a smaller proportion of the community, i.e. the workers and in particular workers in the tax net, then the scope to increase is not as much as the graph might appear to show.

Unemployment in Ireland is about the Euro average and less tax was raised when we had little unemployment also.
And if some people in Ireland are not in the tax net that is a policy decision that Denmark has not made.

And these places do have significant latent taxes, but these "Social Democrats" launched today want to abolish water charges, which every nordic country has. http://cf.datawrapper.de/uj7l5/2/
What these "Social Democrats" fail to realise, or more likely know well but won't admit, that if you don't have water charges, USC etc then you can't have nordic services unless you had such a high marginal rate of income tax that no qualified person would work at weekends and any mobile person would leave.  Frauds, all of them.

This is it exactly. Abolish most taxes means someone else has to pay and in this country that means PAYE workers.