Down Club Hurling & Football

[Tomorrow is another day]

Interesting result.

Carryduff are definitely relegated with Shamrocks and Glassdrumman pretty much 99% likely in the relegation play offs and the third team either Darragh Cross or Kilclief with Darragh Cross the most likely.


As for the promotion play offs - An Riocht are in the final and Ballyholland are in the semi but who they will play in the semi is still up for grabs. After tonights result Attical would be favourites again but Annaclone, Ballymartin, Downpatrick and even Kilclief all still have a chance to make 3rd place.

Fascinating league

[DownFanatic]

League table for O Neills Down SFL Division 3

Team P W L D P+ P- P+/- Pts

Tullylish  21 15 3 3 338 234 104 33
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Glenn  21 16 3 2 309 215 94 33
Drumgath  21 14 5 2 260 235 25 30
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Dundrum  21 11 6 4 297 232 65 26
Bredagh  21 12 8 1 312 235 77 25
St Johns  21 11 7 3 259 257 2 25
Ardglass  20 9 8 3 296 248 48 20
Saul  21 8 10 3 243 278 -35 19
---------------------------------------------------------
Teconnaught  21 7 12 2 215 227 -12 16
St Pauls  20 4 14 2 222 318 -96 10
Drumaness  21 4 16 1 237 301 -64 9
--------------------------------------------------------
Aghaderg  21 1 20 0 160 368 -208 2


Remaining Fixtures:

Round 21:
St Pauls v Ardglass

Round 22:
Ardglass  - - St Johns   
Glenn  - - Dundrum   
Drumaness  - - St Pauls   
Bredagh  - - Drumgath   
Teconnaught  - - Tullylish     
Saul  - - Aghaderg 

[norabeag]

Fascinating end to season in Div 2.
If Downpatrick win their two games they would be on 24 pts and third place and Kilclief could end up on 24 points as well yet if both lose their two games one of them could be in the mire

[When We Win]

Fascinating even more because if you look at past results and the host of teams on 21 points then even Attical could be playing for their survival should they get beaten by Downpatrick and results go with other teams. It amazing that no one between third and ninth are safe. And even a team in the middle of that mix is even more safe than Attical based on previous results. Now why would they want to relegate anyone from this division when we have this sort of entertainment. It going to be an interesting two weeks.

[Mid Down Gael]

Jesus its great to be sobered up. The last 3 days have been what dreams are made off for the gaels off Kilcoo. A brilliant minor team cantered to a county title and after many years off heartbreak we finally got our hands on the Frank OHare cup. Thanks to all fellow posters for their support and for recogonising our wonderful achievement. It is such a wonderful feeling to see this happen. Bring on ST. Eunans.

[6th sam]

Fascinating end to season in Div 2.
If Downpatrick win their two games they would be on 24 pts and third place and Kilclief could end up on 24 points as well yet if both lose their two games one of them could be in the mire

Agree with you,norabeag,fascinating,but certainly nerve wracking for the clubs involved.
This again highlights the deficiencies in our current league structures,which have not been addressed by the recent changes.
League position should reflect a teams overall consistency over a season.The promoted teams should be teams that are best equipped to have a decent campaign in the division above,the following year.The relegated teams should be those who have proved over a season that they can't cut it in that division.I'm sure RGU and Kilclief would be browned off,if despite knocking on the door of promotion,their season hinges on their performances over a few saturdays in autumn.If they get dragged into relegation play-offs,and lose 1 match,they will be competing in a league,well below their standard.
Essentially we now have 2 championship type competitions in Autumn,and the rest of the year is almost meaningless.
Loughinisland are a perfect example of this.With their county men,they are a top championship side,without them they will always struggle in Division 1 under the current league system.Having struggled for most of the year,they could survive in Div 1,by virtue of 1 play-off win.Dundrum are another example.Without Paul Mccomiskey they are midtable div 3 at best.With him they are potential intermediate champs,but the reality is he only got to play 1 meaningful match with his clubmates in 2009-does that help develop Dundrum or Paul McComiskey?
In my opinion we would be better having a competitive  league,when county players may not be available(like magniers league in rugby)and then an extended championship (like heiniken cup) from ?August to October,depending on the progress of county teams in the summer.This allows all clubs the opportunity to re-integrate their county players into their club team,for meaningful fixtures.During the year,as many county players as possible should be available to play for their clubs,excluding the 9 day rule,and even then, only the top 25 county players.
This would revitalise the league proper,invigorate the championships,and reduce tensions between county and club managers.
Championship and league grading would be completely seperate-reflecting a team's strength with and without county players respectively.

My strongest objection,is the fact that the league winner has to be involved in playoffs.If An Ríocht fail to win play-off final,it will be ridiculous, as they have proved they are too good for div 2 over the course of the year.Similarly if Bosco,had lost their playoff,it would have made a mockery of their dominant season.Why is it OK to directly relegate the last team,but not directly promote the first team?
The ironic thing about this time of year is that there is more talk about the permutations and combinations and complications,than the actual football itself!

[6th sam]

Jesus its great to be sobered up. The last 3 days have been what dreams are made off for the gaels off Kilcoo. A brilliant minor team cantered to a county title and after many years off heartbreak we finally got our hands on the Frank OHare cup. Thanks to all fellow posters for their support and for recogonising our wonderful achievement. It is such a wonderful feeling to see this happen. Bring on ST. Eunans.

When and where is st eunan's match?

[county colours]

Head to heads are used before scoring difference GY. As far as I know Shams beat the Duff both home and away, so Carryduff are down.

Is this definately the case because i know in the past that score difference was used first???

[thewobbler]

A number of things 6th Sam.

1. The league structures aren't perfect, but after the 132 games will be played only one of them will have been a dead rubber, with neither team having anything to play for (Shamrocks v Ballyholland) and in total less than half-a-dozen games with a half a dead rubber, one team having nothing to play for (all in the next 2 series). That is quite remarkable, and something that most sporting leagues in the world would love to have. Nearly every single game in the league series is competitive.

2. Your argument is full of holes. You claim that the league is meaningless up until September. Well it that's the case, how come An Riocht and Ballyholland aren't in the same position as RGU and Kilclief? The most consistent teams over 22 games have no chance of relegation, simple as that.

3. Club football is about club football, not county football. If you spend your whole summer waiting for county players to come back before making it "meaningful", you will simply destroy the game as a sporting activity for the 1,000+ club players in our county. Gaelic Games are summer sports, leave it that way. Your comment on "depending on progress of the county teams in the summer" is downright derogatory to club footballers.

4. Why the league winner has to be involved in play-offs? Well it's quite simple. Finishing top of your section does not make you the league winner, but it does put you in the best position to win the league. Why do so many people have difficulty understanding this? That is your reward for being consistent over the season. Let me tell you this, beating the 2nd/3rd/4th most consistent teams at a neutral venue when they are at full strength is a much better indicator of your team's worthiness for the next tier up, than consistently beating weak teams over the course of a season is.   

[6th sam]

A number of things 6th Sam.

1. The league structures aren't perfect, but after the 132 games will be played only one of them will have been a dead rubber, with neither team having anything to play for (Shamrocks v Ballyholland) and in total less than half-a-dozen games with a half a dead rubber, one team having nothing to play for (all in the next 2 series). That is quite remarkable, and something that most sporting leagues in the world would love to have. Nearly every single game in the league series is competitive.That's part of the problem,the nature of our leagues,and the implication of promotion and relegation,means that the championship is relegated to 2nd place for a number of teams.

2. Your argument is full of holes.A very loose statement-equally it could be argued that the current system is full of holes. You claim that the league is meaningless(fair point-probably an exaggeration on my part) up until September. Well it that's the case, how come An Riocht and Ballyholland aren't in the same position as RGU and Kilclief? The most consistent teams over 22 games have no chance of relegation, simple as that. My point is that the most important attribute of a promoted team ,should be their ability to consistently be competitive in the league above.Perhaps our playoff system is the reason why we have so many yoyo teams in our leagues.St.johns and Glenn for example have been well equipped for div 3,on the back of direct promotion from div 4.

3. Club football is about club football, not county football. If you spend your whole summer waiting for county players to come back before making it "meaningful", you will simply destroy the game as a sporting activity for the 1,000+ club players in our county. Gaelic Games are summer sports, leave it that way. Your comment on "depending on progress of the county teams in the summer" is downright derogatory to club footballers.If you knew my background ,you would not question my loyalty to the club player.On the contrary my desire is to have weekly matches for most club players,in a fixed fixture list drawn up in January.Try telling John Hayes that last week's Magniers clash with Leinster was meaningless,or indeed the non-internationals in the Ulster/Leinster/Munster squads that they are playing in a sham league.I want more club football not less.I just feel that this autumnal fixture chaos ,could be improved upon.The unpredictability or absence of fixtures for most teams in August/September,is avoidable.I thought it was interesting to read the recent article on Liam Doyle who was keen to get injury treatment started,but was going to delay that until after the playoffs.I would argue that the lack of a close season for the likes of Liam,Dan Gordon,Ronan Murtagh,who have been involved in playoffs most seasons,has effected their fitness and freshness for club and county football.I would love to see Down club football start in March and finish late October with County finals weekend.Giving all players a predictable close season,for recovery,holidays etc.

4. Why the league winner has to be involved in play-offs? Well it's quite simple. Finishing top of your section does not make you the league winner, but it does put you in the best position to win the league. Why do so many people have difficulty understanding this? That is your reward for being consistent over the season. Let me tell you this, beating the 2nd/3rd/4th most consistent teams at a neutral venue when they are at full strength is a much better indicator of your team's worthiness for the next tier up, than consistently beating weak teams over the course of a season is.  Again,my point is that the league title is not the goal/reward most teams are after-promotion is the real reward,and ultimately promotion should be about stepping up to the next level,and hopefully pushing on.I have been involved in successful play-off campaigns from 4th to 1st positions,and can vouch for the fact that success from fourth does not leave you equipped for the following season.I fear I will never sell this concept to you wobbler,and have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in a war of words with you ,as I fear you and I are the only people in Down who have any real interest in it anyway.Maybe I don't understand that Down CB mentality of jealously guarding the status quo,in case the sky might fall in ,if we try to change our ways. .

[Mid Down Gael]

Jesus its great to be sobered up. The last 3 days have been what dreams are made off for the gaels off Kilcoo. A brilliant minor team cantered to a county title and after many years off heartbreak we finally got our hands on the Frank OHare cup. Thanks to all fellow posters for their support and for recogonising our wonderful achievement. It is such a wonderful feeling to see this happen. Bring on ST. Eunans.

When and where is st eunan's match?

In Newry on the first of November.

[When We Win]

No system is completely fair. However where we are at present is that the county board wanted to reduce the number of teams in Div 1. This has meant we are having to drop teams from the highly competitive div 2. If you look at results in this division anyone can beat anyone, with the exception probably of An Riocht who only lost games when half the team were on stag dos.

Obviously my opinion will count for nothing at this stage because i forgot to say it to the County Board.... but if the county board think the top team in Div 3 is capable of playing in div 2 then they should be proving it by going through a relegation/promotion playoff by playing a team from the div above. This should have been implimented to all divisions.

This will stop any yoyoing effect and the teams will be in the division they deserve to be in. There should be no complaints if they simply are not good enough to compete!!!

[RadioGAAGAA]

That's part of the problem,the nature of our leagues,and the implication of promotion and relegation,means that the championship is relegated to 2nd place for a number of teams.

Am I reading that right?

You want to abolish promotion/relegation?

Again,my point is that the league title is not the goal/reward most teams are after-promotion is the real reward,and ultimately promotion should be about stepping up to the next level,and hopefully pushing on.I have been involved in successful play-off campaigns from 4th to 1st positions,and can vouch for the fact that success from fourth does not leave you equipped for the following season.

Now you say promotion is the reward?

What do you want?

[Breakforball]

Congratulations to Kilcoo. Their achievements this year have been unreal.

McCorry was very modest after the game and said that all the groundwork for this win had been done years before hand. There's a lot of truth in that and I think that those pioneers of the mid 90's can look back with immense pride in what they created.

On another note, Ive never seen so much support for a club in Down from neutrals as I seen over the weekend regarding Kilcoo. From Mournemen to local rivals, everyone seemed to be rooting for them and Id say they will have a few extra supporters in tow come Ulster Championship time.

On behalf of "Break for Ball" I'd like to congratualte Kilcoo on their wonderous achievement at the weekend.

We were delighted to have them on a Team Building Weekend to Donegal during mid July. This was followed up with a Motivational Talk with John O'Mahony, one Saturday evening before their Semi-Final with Burren.

To be fair, Jim McCorry has left no stone unturned in bringing this championship to Kilcoo. Credit to all of them.

[wobbller]

Fair point Wobbler, i used to be very optimistic and positive, before Football became Handball, or maybe its just an age thing. Then again if you dont see the faults you cant fix them. But i will take your advice on board and also acknowledge the many good aspects of our association in Down, unfortunately most of these occur off the playing field, and dont seem to engender the interest they deserve on this forum

   I'd be interested as to what these aspects are?