Down Club Hurling & Football

[SHEEDY]

Totally dejected after that today. Where do we go from here? the last 20 mins were pathetic, kildare ran through us at will. The thing is we're getting used to it now. Big changes needed.

[knockitdown]

James gone? Anyone confirm?

[whitegoodman]

I have always been a supporter and defender of James but I think the time has prob come for him to call it a day.  The fiasco of the boys going on holiday and today's performance would indicate that he has prob lost the dressing room at this stage.

Who could replace him is a very difficult question.  McCorry  would be ideal but I think he is too smart to take it with the current shape Down are in.  Dawson would be a risky appointment and would divide a lot of opinion.  After that I am really struggling to think of potential replacements if James decides to go.

On the players you could see numerous retirements now especially if James goes.  McVeigh, Dan McCartan, Gordon, Ambrose, Benny, Doyle could all call it a day now and you couldn't blame them for the years service they have given.  If there is a new manager it might be better for a fresh start and try and build with the younger lads.

[A man from Down]

Very dissapointing yesterday lads. When the draw was made i felt it was the perfect tie in that it would tell us where we were at. Theres no point in playing 4th division teams all the way to Croke Pk only for the likes of Dublin, Mayo or Cork to show us the gulf in class.  Wee James has been brilliant for us, he took Down Football from a bad place right up to the top table contesting major finals only to just fall short of a trophy. However looking in it seems that the boys just aren'nt playing for him. Its hard to know exactly where the problem lies but right now Down football is struggling. The underage teams of the past few years have been dismal whilst the best club side in the county produce only one regular starter.

Its heartbraking that most of the very best underage players from the best underage sides from the past 15 or so years have been largely unavailable. There will be retirements no doubt but I'd hope that Benny and Gordon particularly stay on. Forget his age Benny is one of the top 5 players in Down club football and also arguably our best performer this summer in whatever role he was asked to play. With big Dan, hes the best midfielder in the county by far and still is'nt 30 yet and having missed a couple of years with injury probably does'nt have as many miles on the clock as we'd think.

For now all we can say is thanks to the mangement and players who have put the work in this year and hopefully we can somehow improve and give division 2 a rattle next year rgardless of whoevers in charge or selected to play.

[Mourne Rover]

Dan Gordon is 31, and Benny is a year older, so they are not quite pensioners yet. The problem is that injuries have taken their toll, and committing for another year is a big decision. Whoever is in charge should start talking to them as soon as possible, because there are clearly going to be other retirements and we need a hard core of experienced players within what will be a pretty young squad when we start in division two in February.

[whitegoodman]

It would be beneficial if a couple of the older heads could stay on.  Gordon and Benny would be ideal but I think Benny has always maintained that once James stood down he would be be doing the same so it remains to be seen if he can be persuaded to stay on.

Ambrose is a strange one as he went from being a vital member of the team to see Damian Turley coming on ahead of him in the half forward line and Conor Toner coming on at midfield.  Maybe the injuries are finally catching up on him but it seems very strange that he has fallen so far down the pecking order.

[Brick Tamlin]

Yesterday was waiting to happen for a while now.
Being touted as favourites from alot of quarters and from watching that game some of our players must have thought it was a matter of just showing up.
Bad day for the players, the management and the supporters.

Young Cunningham in goals is a fine keeper and im sure he will get better with experience but he is no Cluxton or Morgan when it comes to stroking over the dead balls. Also it was killing us how many times we failed to retain possession from our own kickouts. The days of booting it long and high (regardless if you have Dan Gordon in the middle) are truly done and gone. Why why why were we not kicking the ball to the sidelines 40-50 yards and allowing our men to run onto the ball to collect rather than having it launched down their throats forcing them to collect above their heads . I dont blame the goalie solely here but also the management and the players. Players werent exactly demanding the ball kicked into space. And when they did a la Conor Toner the kick wasnt made, thus rendering his run useless and also taking him out of the play whenever the kick was aimed down the middle. It just looked as though we had no kickout strategy at all for retaining our own restarts.

Defensively i thought we had our match-ups wrong as well as our tactics. Whenever Kildare had the ball we completely retreated into space in our defence. Yes we did make some interceptions and cut out some supply but whenever we have 3 spare men trottin back to fill gaps its cat looking especially whenever they dont tangibly influence play, force a tackle, hit the ball carrier or get involved in the play in some way. Too many times in first half we had players back marking space and Kildare still scored at will. If they had their boots on the would have been easily in double figures by half time.
In comparison to Kildare their defensive approach was alot better. They relied on sheer hunger, guts and determination to get themselves up our players holes on every occasion. See Emmet Bolton or Ollie Lyons. They epitomised Kildare's hunger and attitude on sunday, Bolton especially. Playing on the edge all day and risking the long walk off he snarled and bullied his way through the game and wasnt going to cow down to anyone in red jersey. He clearly got inside Poland's head and got the better of him, and his influence also rubbed off on other defenders which saw Conor McGinn, Poland, Lavery and O'Hare (Actually nearly all our forwards) bullied and outmuscled on more occasions than i care to remember.

From an offensive viewpoint it was a poor day at the office and a poor return from a talented group of players. When 32 yr old Benny Coulter is your best attacker it simply isnt good enough. He was as good as you could hope for and led the fightback after half time on his own nearly. Not enough players weighed in to support or hurt the scoreboard. Laverty was kept in check by an able marker and when he is quiet like that he is made look very average. Donal O'Hare doesnt do enough from open play and the further he roams from the square the less effective he becomes.

Why bring on Ryan Johnson and replace him 15mins later? Why bring Damian Turley (a corner back) on in his place into the half forward line? Where has Aidan Carr gone to? Why wasnt Jerome Johnson used after making an impact in most previous games he played. Is Ambrose or Doyle not fit to play any part at all? Why invite Shea McArdle onto the squad in the last week or so and him only off a plane from a year in spain? To the casual observer some of the stuff that has went on this year is baffling.

Id expect alot of the older heads on that panel to step down after this year and id also expect the management to go too.
James got us to an All Ireland Final where a kick of the ball was the difference in the 2 teams. He also got us to Div1 where we were well able to compete at that time. I dont see many more being able to do that right away but i do think its time for a different voice and set up. McCorry/Dawson would be my choices. But cant see the county board goin for that.

On another note id be concerned at how development of younger players within our county are being catered for.
From what ive heard and seen, the management of the development squads would leave alot to be desired.
Armagh have Paul McGrane & Denis Holywood overseeing the 'Orchard Academy' whereby everything is structured properly with all age brackets catered for properly with fully qualified and experienced coaching personnel in place, with all age groups singing from same hymn sheet, all aiming in one direction. The benefits will be clear to see in the next 8 years id wager.

[Gabriel]

The most depressing thing about that defeat yesterday was that it was going to arrive sooner or later. The facile victory over Leitrim just prolonged the inevitable. There has been no direction, drive or purpose behind Down's entire year, never mind the championship. It was obvious from our league performances that it was going to be a short summer, and the further we progressed through the qualifiers the bigger our final tanking was likely to be. Why have we been capable of producing a maximum of 10-15 blistering minutes of football per game? We still have enough good footballers in the team to be playing above the level we are currently at but can't help but feel that this is the point of no return for James and a few of the older boys.

[Mourne Rover]

James was given a three-year term when he took on the Down job at the start of 2010, and, as he was generally understood to have extended this by a further three years at the end of 2012, he is unlikely to face any pressure from the county board. He has been a successful manager by any standards, turning a squad which was going nowhere into All Ireland finalists and first division regulars, and he is entitled to take his time and decide if he wants to give it another season. It is a draining role, and he may well feel that he needs a break, but the list of credible successors is not a long one at this stage.

Our performance yesterday was largely in line with our form all year, which has mixed flashes of optimism with long periods of mediocrity. Our league displays were mixed at best, and we would have been relegated instead of Armagh had it not been for Poland's injury time goal at the Athletic Grounds.

In the championship, we had a dire first half and an excellent second in Omagh, a flat effort throughout in the reply, a training run against Leitrim and, apart from the first ten minutes after the break, we were mainly sub-standard against Kildare. Some mistakes were obviously made over team selections and tactics, but our squad lacked quality in a number of areas.

There were not many positives along the way, but we did at least bring in five players new to championship football who can hopefully be expected to improve - Michael Cunningham, Ciaran McCartan, Niall Donnelly, Conor Toner and Ryan Johnston. Against that, another five relatively young players with a fair degree of potential - Danny Savage, Shane Harrison, Connaire Harrison, Jamie O'Reilly and Darragh O'Hanlon - were all involved with the squad at different times but never kicked a ball in the championship. A further five experienced players - Paul McComiskey, Ryan Mallon, Kallum King, Shea McArdle and Keith Quinn - were not available for a range of reasons other than injury.

If many or most of these 15 names feature in 2015 to replace some of the veterans who may retire, it is possible that we can be more competitive next spring in what could be a tough second division for us. Our u21s and minors of recent years have not thrown up many additional options, so our problems may go deeper than the identity of our manager. 

[snoopdog]

problem is though these performances happen regularly for down. qualifier against Derry last year as another example. I wonder sometimes if down need some  one to get into their minds a bit like McGuiness has done with Donegal. too often down go missing when they should be fully tuned in.  On another option for manager if wee James goes , Conor deegan has been plying his trade in Dublin with skerries harps ballyboden St end as and now kilmacud crokes, might be worth consideration plus he would come in almost as an outside manager who would have no club or player loyalty

[redandblackareback]

Been saying for a while how inept some of our so called "star players" have been performing in big games, I agree with Brick about the performance of certain forwards, how Donal O Hare has retained his place is baffling to say the least, how the 3 boys that cleared off on holiday are back in the panel never mind actually playing is also baffling! Shea Mc Ardle who didn't even strip out for Burren in the championship a few weeks back is named as a sub is baffling! The phase out we are experiencing towards the end of games, Tyrone and very evidently Kildare considering we have one of the best sports scientists/conditioning men in Moyna employed is also baffling. Mc Cartan has to stay, no doubting that, there is simply no suitable candidate to replace him as senior manager but a more ruthless, disciplined approach needs to be adhered to from the beginning of next year, that would start with removing Jerome Johnston from the management team, impossible to remain impartial with two sons on the panel.

[supersub]

Been saying for a while how inept some of our so called "star players" have been performing in big games, I agree with Brick about the performance of certain forwards, how Donal O Hare has retained his place is baffling to say the least, how the 3 boys that cleared off on holiday are back in the panel never mind actually playing is also baffling! Shea Mc Ardle who didn't even strip out for Burren in the championship a few weeks back is named as a sub is baffling! The phase out we are experiencing towards the end of games, Tyrone and very evidently Kildare considering we have one of the best sports scientists/conditioning men in Moyna employed is also baffling. Mc Cartan has to stay, no doubting that, there is simply no suitable candidate to replace him as senior manager but a more ruthless, disciplined approach needs to be adhered to from the beginning of next year, that would start with removing Jerome Johnston from the management team, impossible to remain impartial with two sons on the panel.

But yet James can remain totally impartial with his two brothers knocking about the team? Nothing against James, just don't see your logic here.

[redandblackareback]

Been saying for a while how inept some of our so called "star players" have been performing in big games, I agree with Brick about the performance of certain forwards, how Donal O Hare has retained his place is baffling to say the least, how the 3 boys that cleared off on holiday are back in the panel never mind actually playing is also baffling! Shea Mc Ardle who didn't even strip out for Burren in the championship a few weeks back is named as a sub is baffling! The phase out we are experiencing towards the end of games, Tyrone and very evidently Kildare considering we have one of the best sports scientists/conditioning men in Moyna employed is also baffling. Mc Cartan has to stay, no doubting that, there is simply no suitable candidate to replace him as senior manager but a more ruthless, disciplined approach needs to be adhered to from the beginning of next year, that would start with removing Jerome Johnston from the management team, impossible to remain impartial with two sons on the panel.

But yet James can remain totally impartial with his two brothers knocking about the team? Nothing against James, just don't see your logic here.

Do you not think he can?? Everyone knows Eoin should be nowhere near the panel, I missed that point, your right but I think other posters raised that issue but Daniel deserves to be there, he's one of other better man markers but like Benny, Dan G, Mc Veigh he's not getting any younger but yes I ll take your point on board, he does have a personal interest but I think the issue is Eoin not Daniel.

[speculative]

Find it very hard to see the logic of retaining McCartan as manager. He has done a decent job and we have competed at a level that we had'nt in the years previous, but it now looks a bit stale.

IMO, I think the county board should do everything in their power to acquire McCrory, who is without doubt one of the best tacticians in Ulster. If not McCrory, I don't see why we should only appoint from within the county, why not look to an outsider, who will bring a fresh approach and impetus. Add in the fact there will be no favour shown toward any club or players due to personal ties, I think it's win win. Either way, decisions need to be made soon so the new prospective manager will have time to evaluate the club scene properly. We can't sit on our hands.

[supersub]

Been saying for a while how inept some of our so called "star players" have been performing in big games, I agree with Brick about the performance of certain forwards, how Donal O Hare has retained his place is baffling to say the least, how the 3 boys that cleared off on holiday are back in the panel never mind actually playing is also baffling! Shea Mc Ardle who didn't even strip out for Burren in the championship a few weeks back is named as a sub is baffling! The phase out we are experiencing towards the end of games, Tyrone and very evidently Kildare considering we have one of the best sports scientists/conditioning men in Moyna employed is also baffling. Mc Cartan has to stay, no doubting that, there is simply no suitable candidate to replace him as senior manager but a more ruthless, disciplined approach needs to be adhered to from the beginning of next year, that would start with removing Jerome Johnston from the management team, impossible to remain impartial with two sons on the panel.

But yet James can remain totally impartial with his two brothers knocking about the team? Nothing against James, just don't see your logic here.

Do you not think he can?? Everyone knows Eoin should be nowhere near the panel, I missed that point, your right but I think other posters raised that issue but Daniel deserves to be there, he's one of other better man markers but like Benny, Dan G, Mc Veigh he's not getting any younger but yes I ll take your point on board, he does have a personal interest but I think the issue is Eoin not Daniel.

I do, but likewise I think JJ can too. I don't have an issue with these relationships, I was just raising the point as I thought it odd to single out JJ when James has the same issue with connections in the panel - neither of which I think have a big effect in the overall picture.