Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[Donagh]

I know I'm being pedantic here Fiodoir, but I'll just point out that Poots did not describe this as a "national" stadium as the BBC report suggests, but as a "multi-sports stadium". Poots is on message even if the BBC aren't.

[nifan]

I really wish they would stop rattling on about the olympics, whatever the views on the stadium there are many more important issues than this.

[SammyG]

Having said the above, the DUP seem to show increasing political maturity!!!!

19 June:

"A new national stadium at the Maze will proceed if an alternative is not proposed by the end of this month, the minister in charge has insisted. Edwin Poots said the process "cannot go on indefinitely".

Not his call to make. There is no way on earth, that he will have been through all the required processes/accountability/VFM checks by the end of the month. And after all that he then has to get Robinson's department to sign the cheque.

The plan is for a 35,000-seater stadium for soccer and rugby, and the provision of more seats for GAA fans.

More fairytales. This was proposed by Poots, but there have been NO DETAILS of how this could be achieved in terms of either the mechanics of doing it or the costs involved.

Mr Poots, the minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure, met developers proposing a Belfast site, but was not satisfied that their plans were viable.

Interesting that he is prepared to accept the Maze plans with no viable business case but not the BCC proposals. 

He said the Maze/Long Kesh Site was the only site able to accommodate "a potentially viable shared Stadium for all the sports involved - soccer, rugby and gaelic games".

He added: "A multi-sports stadium must be delivered to meet the 2012 Olympics timetable, it must be supported by the governing bodies of the relevant sports, be economically viable and be consistent with government's wider objectives of a shared future."

More lies. The Maze is not included on the list of Olympic sites and even if it was, there is no way that the budget would be approved on the basis of a couple (at most) of Under 21 football matches at the Olympics, when numerous other venues already exist.

[Donagh]

I don't see why Robinson would have a problem signing the cheque – it's not his money i.e. was the money for this not previously allocated by the NIO? It doesn't affect the money given to the Assembly. If the money is not spent it isn't used. Also, regarding required processed, checks ete, did we not elect these clowns to cut through all of that excessive bureaucratic bullshite?

[snatter]

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on Today at 11:34:00 AM
The plan is for a 35,000-seater stadium for soccer and rugby, and the provision of more seats for GAA fans.
More fairytales. This was proposed by Poots, but there have been NO DETAILS of how this could be achieved in terms of either the mechanics of doing it or the costs involved.

Wrong Sammy - the only fairytale here is in your head.
I have  told you time and time again that the design specification passed to the architects HOK is for a variable 35k seated / 45k seated & standing capacity.
The job of the architect is to prouce a design based on the specification.
The architects are currently producing their design and will deliver shortly.
All three sports bodies will decide to proceed / bolt on the basis of the proposed design and agreement on satisfactory business terms.

As a GAA fan, I applaud the DUP ministers maturity on insisting that any stadium must be acceptable to all sports bodies, across our divide.

Afaik, the Belfast backers have made no meaningful attempt to engage the GAA or cater for their needs. I can't recall them ever acknowledging the existence of the GAA. Imho, ignoring the most attended sports in NI, exposes that their intention was always to create a mini "orange dome".

Well done in sticking to the governments cross community "shared space" agenda. Its economic madness to develop duplicate facilities for different sports that could easily share.

[Evil Genius]

Afaik, the Belfast backers have made no meaningful attempt to engage the GAA or cater for their needs. In fact, I can't recall the existence of the GAA even being mentioned by them. That alone, ignoring the most attended sports in NI, exposes that their intention was always to create a mini orange dome.

There is much in your post with which I disagree, but the above is so outrageous I cannot let it pass without comment.

The facts are these. Originally, there were four sites considered, three in Belfast, plus the Maze. Both soccer and rugby were happy to consider Belfast, but all three sites were vetoed by the GAA. I would guess this was partly because some of the sites were difficult for GAA fans due to locality, access etc, but also because a Belfast stadium would detract from Casement.

Therefore, since the Government insisted that they would only spend our taxes on a shared stadium, the IFA is too skint to resist and Ulster rugby doesn't much care either way, we were left with the Maze as a fait accompli. Not only that, but with the original plan being for a 28,000 seater stadium, the GAA also made it clear that they would not consider anything less than a 40,000 capacity - hence the increase to 42,000 - despite this being more than soccer or rugby required. (I don't blame the GAA for negotiating their case from a position of strength, btw, though I do feel the Government could have been more even-handed between the three sports).

Anyhow, entirely separately from this, a number of private developers saw the opportunity to build a multi-use sports stadium in Belfast, on a couple of possible sites. Belfast City Council considered these, then plumped for the "Durnien" proposal at Ormeau Park. Durnien has made it quite clear that he wishes to build a stadium which would be financially viable on its own terms, without the need for subsidy from the taxpayers. He has no particular axe to grind as to which sports are staged in the stadium, but Gaelic sports were never going to be a possibility, since the GAA had itself specifically ruled out any stadium in Belfast when the Maze was being considered.

And in any case, the proposed site is probably not big enough to stage Gaelic games, but is perfectly adequate for soccer or rugby. Further, his proposed capacity of around 25,000 is exactly in tune with soccer's ideal requirements, as is the Belfast location. (Ditto its suitability for Ulster Rugby, as an "overflow" for occasional big games when Ravenhill's 12,000 capacity is too small) This is why he offered this stadium for those two sports - if there was greater demand for e.g. Pro-Celebrity Log Rolling, I've no doubt he'd stage that instead.

As for your disgraceful slur about this being a "mini orange dome", the primary activity which he envisages will financially justify his proposal is to be greyhound racing. Somehow, I can't see him restricting the racing only to Protestant dogs...

P.S. The Ormeau Park Proposal has received support from across the Chamber in Belfast City Council which is, as you know, a democratically elected and accountable body. By contrast, those orignally behind the Maze proposal were unelected and unaccountable Government appointees, none of them from Northern Ireland.

[SammyG]

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on Today at 11:34:00 AM
The plan is for a 35,000-seater stadium for soccer and rugby, and the provision of more seats for GAA fans.
More fairytales. This was proposed by Poots, but there have been NO DETAILS of how this could be achieved in terms of either the mechanics of doing it or the costs involved.

Wrong Sammy - the only fairytale here is in your head.
I have  told you time and time again that the design specification passed to the architects HOK is for a variable 35k seated / 45k seated & standing capacity.
The job of the architect is to prouce a design based on the specification.
The architects are currently producing their design and will deliver shortly.
All three sports bodies will decide to proceed / bolt on the basis of the proposed design and agreement on satisfactory business terms.

You seem to be confusing two different issues. What you say is 100% correct but it does not have any correaltion to what Poots said. There are no current proposals for a stadium with variable capacity.

As a GAA fan, I applaud the DUP ministers maturity on insisting that any stadium must be acceptable to all sports bodies, across our divide.

I have no idea what you mean by 'across the divide'. Football and rugby are 100% cross-community in terms of players, supporters, administration etc.

Afaik, the Belfast backers have made no meaningful attempt to engage the GAA or cater for their needs. I can't recall them ever acknowledging the existence of the GAA. Imho, ignoring the most attended sports in NI, exposes that their intention was always to create a mini "orange dome".

Not just a ridiculous slur (how can a venue for cross-community sports bodies be an 'orange dome') but also factually incorrect. The Durnien proposals are open to all and they have stated that they will welcome GAA (or any other sports) and that they will build a financially viable stadium with no requirement for public money. The GAA refused to even discuss Belfast as an option.

Well done in sticking to the governments cross community "shared space" agenda. Its economic madness to develop duplicate facilities for different sports that could easily share.

The arguments are nothing to do with any 'shared space agenda', they are to do with the complete lack of financial viablility. The Maze proposals do not add up and can't be made to add up.

[snatter]

Originally, there were four sites considered, three in Belfast, plus the Maze. Both soccer and rugby were happy to consider Belfast, but all three sites were vetoed by the GAA.

I disagree with your assertion that the GAA vetoed anything.
They are alleged (NIO officials talking to NI soccer fans) to have said that all three Belfast sites put to them were unsuitable.
To date, no detailed explanation has emerged from the GAA re the actual reason.
There has been speculation that the GAA were unconvinced that their supporters would be able to travel to/from the sites without risking sectarian abuse.

I would guess this was partly because some of the sites were difficult for GAA fans due to locality, access etc, but also because a Belfast stadium would detract from Casement.

You can guess what you like, but as stated above, most speculation centres on perceived risk for GAA fans on Belfast.

For the record, the only elements within the GAA on record as being concerned about the impact on Casement are Antrim GAA, who as its proprietors might be expected to take that reaction. GAA HQ, Ulster Council and Down GAA officials are all on record as endorsing the Maze.

Therefore, since the Government insisted that they would only spend our taxes on a shared stadium, the IFA is too skint to resist and Ulster rugby doesn't much care either way, we were left with the Maze as a fait accompli. Not only that, but with the original plan being for a 28,000 seater stadium, the GAA also made it clear that they would not consider anything less than a 40,000 capacity - hence the increase to 42,000 - despite this being more than soccer or rugby required. (I don't blame the GAA for negotiating their case from a position of strength, btw, though I do feel the Government could have been more even-handed between the three sports).

I imagine most people in NI have no objection to developing shared facilities, minimising wasteful sectarian duplication of facilities.

Re capacity, it is clear to all but the most blinkered that gaelic football, as the most attended Northern Irish sport, requires a stadium that will accomodate the crowds that it attracts.
Surely the capacity should be as large as required to cater for all three sports. The proposed 35k seated / 45k seated & standing capacity sounds sensible and has been agreed by all three governing bodies.

Are you seriously suggesting that the stadium should have been limited to the crowds that NI soccer attracts?  To illustrate, look at the 2005 attendance figures:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here are the latest full year attendance figures that I could find:

2005 Ulster Teams Championship attendances.
(NOTE that these exclude the qualifier series matches).

USFC: Armagh V Tyrone 61000
USFC: Replay Armagh V Tyrone 32000
USFC: Derry V Armagh 27633
USFC: Donegal V Armagh 25622
USFC: Tyrone V Cavan 23441
USFC: Armagh V Fermanagh 23107
USFC: Replay Armagh V Donegal    18227
USFC: Tyrone V Down 18200
USFC: Replay Tyrone V Cavan 16492
USFC: Monaghan V Derry 16314
USFC: Cavan V Antrim  10500
USFC: Replay Cavan V Antrim 3865
 
AIQF: Tyrone V Dublin 78514
AIQF: Armagh V Laois 32187
AISF: Tyrone V Armagh 65858
AIF: Tyrone V Kerry 82112

Note that these are official figures.
Earlier round games in particular will probably show figures lower than the real attendances - Non-paying kids aren't taken into account.

--------------------------------


Northern Ireland figures:

Competitve NI soccer matches played in the same period.

Northern Ireland V Azerbaijan   11909
Northern Ireland V England      14069
Northern Ireland V Wales      13451

JJB Irish Cup Final 2005 Portadown V Larne  5,431

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyhow, entirely separately from this, a number of private developers saw the opportunity to build a multi-use sports stadium in Belfast, on a couple of possible sites. Belfast City Council considered these, then plumped for the "Durnien" proposal at Ormeau Park. Durnien has made it quite clear that he wishes to build a stadium which would be financially viable on its own terms, without the need for subsidy from the taxpayers. He has no particular axe to grind as to which sports are staged in the stadium, but Gaelic sports were never going to be a possibility, since the GAA had itself specifically ruled out any stadium in Belfast when the Maze was being considered.

A few points:
Pure fantasy to describe the Durnien proposal as a privately financed when the prime city centre site it needs is to be gifted by the council for free. How much would Ormeau Park be on the open market? Tens if not hundreds of millions I guess.
Thats one hell of a subsidy for starters. Gifting this land without providing for the most popular games in Northern Ireland would expose BCC to legal action on equality grounds.

Disregarding the above, it would be up to the developer to persuade a potential client that the the development was suitable for them.
Afaik, Durnien made no attempt to persuade the GAA to consider his development.
The fact that the site is too small anyway (as you admit below) suggests that there never was any intention to accomodate gaelic games.

And in any case, the proposed site is probably not big enough to stage Gaelic games, but is perfectly adequate for soccer or rugby. Further, his proposed capacity of around 25,000 is exactly in tune with soccer's ideal requirements, as is the Belfast location. (Ditto its suitability for Ulster Rugby, as an "overflow" for occasional big games when Ravenhill's 12,000 capacity is too small) This is why he offered this stadium for those two sports - if there was greater demand for e.g. Pro-Celebrity Log Rolling, I've no doubt he'd stage that instead.

As for your disgraceful slur about this being a "mini orange dome", the primary activity which he envisages will financially justify his proposal is to be greyhound racing. Somehow, I can't see him restricting the racing only to Protestant dogs...
P.S. The Ormeau Park Proposal has received support from across the Chamber in Belfast City Council which is, as you know, a democratically elected and accountable body. By contrast, those orignally behind the Maze proposal were unelected and unaccountable Government appointees, none of them from Northern Ireland.

I make no apology for describing the durnien proposal an "orange dome". If you deliberately exclude the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, then that is what it will be perceived as.
It is the exclusion of a whole section of the northern irish community that is the real disgrace. Especially if the council ever gifted them 10's of millions.

[Donagh]

There is much in your post with which I disagree, but the above is so outrageous I cannot let it pass without comment.

God forbid you could ever leave anything without comment 

[his holiness nb]

There is much in your post with which I disagree, but the above is so outrageous I cannot let it pass without comment.

God forbid you could ever leave anything without comment 

Quality Donagh!

[Evil Genius]

There is much in your post with which I disagree, but the above is so outrageous I cannot let it pass without comment.

God forbid you could ever leave anything without comment 

Quality Donagh!

And God forbid that either of you could "play the ball", rather than "the man"...

[Donagh]

And God forbid that either of you could "play the ball", rather than "the man"...

If you want to play by those rules, take your ball and fcuk off over to Slugger.

[stew]

A very sad day, but not the end of the fight. The Maze plans will have to be approved by the full executive not just Poots and there are already a significant number of NOs and a small number of UNDECIDEDs, who will all have to vote to spend up to £400 million on a vainty project and then go back, to their constituents and explain why there local school/hospital/youth club/library is closing.

feckin brilliant news this, I could not be happier. 

[Evil Genius]

Originally, there were four sites considered, three in Belfast, plus the Maze. Both soccer and rugby were happy to consider Belfast, but all three sites were vetoed by the GAA.

I disagree with your assertion that the GAA vetoed anything.
They are alleged (NIO officials talking to NI soccer fans) to have said that all three Belfast sites put to them were unsuitable.
To date, no detailed explanation has emerged from the GAA re the actual reason.
There has been speculation that the GAA were unconvinced that their supporters would be able to travel to/from the sites without risking sectarian abuse.

I would guess this was partly because some of the sites were difficult for GAA fans due to locality, access etc, but also because a Belfast stadium would detract from Casement.

You can guess what you like, but as stated above, most speculation centres on perceived risk for GAA fans on Belfast.
For the record, the only elements within the GAA on record as being concerned about the impact on Casement are Antrim GAA, who as its propietors might be expected to take that reaction. GAA HQ, Ulster Council and Down GAA officials are all on record as endorsing the Maze.

Therefore, since the Government insisted that they would only spend our taxes on a shared stadium, the IFA is too skint to resist and Ulster rugby doesn't much care either way, we were left with the Maze as a fait accompli. Not only that, but with the original plan being for a 28,000 seater stadium, the GAA also made it clear that they would not consider anything less than a 40,000 capacity - hence the increase to 42,000 - despite this being more than soccer or rugby required. (I don't blame the GAA for negotiating their case from a position of strength, btw, though I do feel the Government could have been more even-handed between the three sports).

I imagine most people in NI have no objection to developing shared facilities, minimising wasteful sectarian duplication of facilities.

Re capacity, it is clear to all but the most blinkered that gaelic football, as the most attended Northern Irish sport, requires a stadium that will accomodate the crowds that it attracts. Surely the capacity should be large enough to cater for all three sports.
Are you seriously suggesting that the stadium should have been limited to the crowds that NI soccer attracts? 

Anyhow, entirely separately from this, a number of private developers saw the opportunity to build a multi-use sports stadium in Belfast, on a couple of possible sites. Belfast City Council considered these, then plumped for the "Durnien" proposal at Ormeau Park. Durnien has made it quite clear that he wishes to build a stadium which would be financially viable on its own terms, without the need for subsidy from the taxpayers. He has no particular axe to grind as to which sports are staged in the stadium, but Gaelic sports were never going to be a possibility, since the GAA had itself specifically ruled out any stadium in Belfast when the Maze was being considered.

A few points:
Pure fantasy to describe the Durnien proposal as a privately financed when the prime city centre site it needs is to be gifted by the council for free. How much would Ormeau Park be on the open market? Tens if not hundreds of millions I guess.
Thats one hell of a subsidy for starters. Gifting this land without providing for the most popular games in Northern Ireland would expose BCC to legal action on equality grounds.

Disregarding the above, it would be up to the developer to persuade a potential client that the the development was suitable for them.
Afaik, Durnien made no attempt to persuade the GAA to consider his development.
The fact that the site is too small anyway (as you admit below) suggests that there never was any intention to accomodate gaelic games.

And in any case, the proposed site is probably not big enough to stage Gaelic games, but is perfectly adequate for soccer or rugby. Further, his proposed capacity of around 25,000 is exactly in tune with soccer's ideal requirements, as is the Belfast location. (Ditto its suitability for Ulster Rugby, as an "overflow" for occasional big games when Ravenhill's 12,000 capacity is too small) This is why he offered this stadium for those two sports - if there was greater demand for e.g. Pro-Celebrity Log Rolling, I've no doubt he'd stage that instead.

As for your disgraceful slur about this being a "mini orange dome", the primary activity which he envisages will financially justify his proposal is to be greyhound racing. Somehow, I can't see him restricting the racing only to Protestant dogs...
P.S. The Ormeau Park Proposal has received support from across the Chamber in Belfast City Council which is, as you know, a democratically elected and accountable body. By contrast, those orignally behind the Maze proposal were unelected and unaccountable Government appointees, none of them from Northern Ireland.

I make no apology for describing the durnien proposal an "orange dome". If you deliberately exclude the most attended sport in Northern Ireland, then that is what it will be perceived as.
It is the exclusion of a whole section of the northern irish community that is the real disgrace. Especially if the council ever gifted them 10's of millions.

So much bullshit.

The GAA has made it perfectly clear that they would only consider the Maze i.e. they were not prepared to consider Belfast (irrespective of thier reasons). Therefore, Durnien (who, as Sammy has pointed out, would be prepared to include them) would have no opportunity to include them, since the GAA themselves has ruled it out. Why can't you comprehend that?

As for having a shared stadium, no-one I know in rugby or soccer has any objection to sharing with GAA or any other sport in principle. However, in practice, the greater pitch size for GAA means poor viewing for soccer/rugby; the enlarged capacity for GAA detracts from the atmosphere for soccer and rugby, and the location, whilst acceptable to GAA, which has a different support base, is not a good one for either of the other sports.

I am not suggesting that the capacity be restricted to soccer-sized crowds at the expense of GAA, merely pointing out that the three codes have differing needs which do not suit a "one size fits all" approach. They've found exactly the same in e.g. Australia, where they build separate facilities for RL/RU/Soccer and Aussie Rules/cricket, or the USA, where they separate e.g. American Football from Baseball. (And btw, your figures for NI international soccer are misleading, since UEFA imposes a maximum 14,000 limit on capacity, further reduced by the need for segregation, away fans etc)

As for the "value" of Ormeau Park, your contention about the "market value" of Ormeau Park is utter nonsense, since BCC cannot offer it on the open market for normal commercial development. Rather, it is preserved for leisure purposes. As such, Durnien is proposing to take a small, little-used corner of the park and present a modern multi-use stadium to the Council, available for a whole range of leisure activities, such as sports, cultural events and concerts. And in any case, how is the Maze site for "free", when the Government could easily sell it for e.g. development for low-cost social housing?

As for your suggestion that allowing Ormeau to be used for this purpose would leave BCC open to challenge on "equality" grounds is risible. Durnien's proposal is supported by elected representatives from both communities (also the local SDLP MP for the area); besides, they have a legal department to advise on all such matters - but perhaps you know better!

As for your contention that the Ormeau proposal would "exclude a whole section of the NI community", I've not heard such twisted logic in a long time - even on this forum. Quite simply, Durnien is proposing a stadium to stage a whole host of events and activities, all of which are entirely cross-community at every level. He's not envisaging e.g. swimming, equestrian sports, motor sports, cricket, hockey or athletics and the only reason he's not considering GAA is because the GAA itself has made it perfectly clear they don't want to be involved (as is their right). That said, it is pretty rich to cry "sectarianism" for not including the only major sport in NI which fails to garner any significant degree of cross-community participation or support, whilst including others which do...


P.S. That last comment is not meant as a "dig" at GAA, btw, but is merely stating the situation as it exists, in a (hopefully) non-perjorative manner.

[Evil Genius]

And God forbid that either of you could "play the ball", rather than "the man"...

If you want to play by those rules, take your ball and fcuk off over to Slugger.

So still no comment on what I actually posted, then. 

Anyhow, I'll f**k off when I'm good and ready - I hardly need your permission or instruction, thank you very much.