Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[ExiledGael]

Well said

[snatter]

Evil Genus,

The GAA has made it perfectly clear that they would only consider the Maze

Prove it.
All you have to go on is media speculation and alleged quotes from NIO spokesmen to NI soccer fans.
To have chosen the Maze, the GAA must have considered the Belfast locations before rejecting them. Common sense really.

As for the Maze location, it is itself a compromise on the GAA's part.
Think about it, the GAA could have stormed in and reminded everybody that we are the future anchor tenant, that we will provide most money to maintain the venue in future.
It could have demanded that it be in Armagh, Dungannon, or somewhere handier, on current figures for the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO WILL EVER USE THE STADIUM.
That it didn't shows a level of grace and compromise lacking in any input from NI soccer fans.

Think even harder - Look at those 2005 attendance figures again.
Do you really expect NI soccer fans to be able to demand that the stadium be located where they want, and to hell with the wishes of those who will use it most?
What makes an insignificant but vocal rump who attract 35k a year really think that they can dictate to an organisation that attracts 500 000 in the same year?
Jumped up little farts, the lot of you. Your over exposure in themedia has you thinking that you're more important than you really are.

[SammyG]

as already stated on this thread, the proposed capacity is a variable 35k / 45k.
I would imagine that the GAA would retain 35k capacity when it suited, and increase it to 45k partially seated when needed.

Can you please stop repeating this nonsense? You've already admitted that this is nothig more than a potential marketting proposal, with no plans or budget to actually implement it. And that's without looking at the actual issues of how you move stands around?

Imho, all these matches would be well suited to a new 35/45k multi sports stadium.

How many do you think will actually be played at the Maze and when do you think the GAA will be prepared to let us have a list of proposed matches, as they have refused so far?

The new stadium factor for the first few years genberally leads to increased attendances (as seen at Croker and Millenium).
The extra capacity gives all three associations a valuable marketing tool in opening up their games to new audiences.

Interesting that you choose  Croker and the MS as examples. Can you tell me whether those two stadia are in city centre locations and conform to all the accepted wisdom of stadium design or if they're in a field in the middle of nowhere?  

The NI soccer brigade in particular should have more confidence in their ability to draw a crowd.

The issue of 'drawing a crowd' is totally irrelevant. The Maze is an unsustainable white elephant, whether we draw a crowd or not.

Look at those soccer figures - they're pitiful.

Full to capacity with an extra 4 or 5K looking for tickets is hardly pitiful.

A new stadium, in a new neutral location might draw out thousands of new fans who wouldn't want to go to the village.

100% agree, who's mentioned anybody going to the Village? No-one is seriously suggesting staying at WP and all the Belfast options are totally neutral.

Somebody on the board said recently that the NI jersey has sold 40k copies - surely the soccer marketing men should be able to translate that into bums on seats for you. If not, why not, what's the problem?

Totally nonsensical argument on so many levels.

You should have more confidence in yourselves and stop sniping at an organisation that has managed to make their games attractive family days out.
Accept the reality that GAA is currently more popular, move on, and start taking a good hard look at yourselves.

Totally agree, for all the problems with the GAA, marketing is not one of them. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion though.

[SammyG]

Prove it.
All you have to go on is media speculation and alleged quotes from NIO spokesmen to NI soccer fans.
To have chosen the Maze, the GAA must have considered the Belfast locations before rejecting them. Common sense really.

Nonsense the GAA vetoed Belfast, out of hand. They said that the only option acceptable to them was the Maze.

As for the Maze location, it is itself a compromise on the GAA's part.
Think about it, the GAA could have stormed in and reminded everybody that we are the future anchor tenant, that we will provide most money to maintain the venue in future.

More lies, the IFA will be the anchor tennant not the GAA. The GAA will only use the stadium when required.

It could have demanded that it be in Armagh, Dungannon, or somewhere handier for the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO WILL EVER USE THE STADIUM.

A stadium in Armagh or Dungannon would make more sense than one in a field in the middle of nowhere.

That it didn't shows a level of grace and compromise lacking in any input from NI soccer fans.

What are you on about? We have studied the proposals and come to a decision, based on the information available, the GAA gave a take it or leave it ultimatum but somehow you twist it to be NI fans who won't compromise. 

Think even harder - Look at those 2005 attendance figures again.
Do you really expect NI soccer fans to be able to demand that the stadium be located where they want, and to hell with the wishes of those who will use it most?

Not at all and that is not what the argument is about (as you well know). The issues are about infrastructure and economic viability, the capacity is a minor inconvenience, rather than a major issue.

What makes an insignificant but vocal rump who attract 35k a year really think that they can dictate to an organisation that attracts 500 000 in the same year?
Jumped up little farts, the lot of you. Your over exposure in themedia has you thinking that you're more important than you really are.

More abusive bollix. 

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 08:22:18 PM
as already stated on this thread, the proposed capacity is a variable 35k / 45k.
I would imagine that the GAA would retain 35k capacity when it suited, and increase it to 45k partially seated when needed.

Can you please stop repeating this nonsense?

Sorry Sammy, I'm still right and you're still wrong. We've been here before:

SammyG - very forgetful, very thick or very stubborn?


As already stated, the most recent proposal for the Maze is for a 35000 seater for ifa / irfu games and a 42000 seated/standing capacity for GAA.
In the interest of correctness, the most recent proposal for the Maze is for a 35000 seater for ifa / irfu games and a 42000 seated/standing capacity for GAA.

And if you don't believe me:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6149096.stm

READ THE FIRST WORDS OF THE REPORT:
THE BBC HAS LEARNED THAT PLANS FOR A NEW SPORTS STADIUM AT THE MAZE HAVE BEEN REDRAWN

There's even a video (with sound) if you have trouble digesting printed words that you don't like.

Current Maze status:

The design team have taken the requirements and are now working on detailed plans to implement them:
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6288213.stm

You've already admitted that this is nothig more than a potential marketting proposal

Bollocks. I've said nothing of the sort. Again - Prove it.

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 08:22:18 PM
Imho, all these matches would be well suited to a new 35/45k multi sports stadium.
How many do you think will actually be played at the Maze and when do you think the GAA will be prepared to let us have a list of proposed matches, as they have refused so far?

Sammy,

how can the GAA give a definitive list when they don't know the teams in the matches.
You've been lurking here for so long, you're bound to know that the exact make up of any Ulster / All-Ireland match can't be determined in advance. If for example, Cavan were playing Monaghan in an Ulster Final, they might bow to local pressure and play it in Clones.
That being said, it is my opinion that in a typical year the Ulster Final, at least one Ulster SF, one Aussie rules, and at least one AIQ match would be played.
Imho, there's no question of the GAA not using it to the full. The Down secretary issued statements to that effect over a year ago.
I gave you a link to the comments many months ago.

Looking at the matches played in 2005, I would guess that the following would have gone to the maze:

USFC: Armagh V Tyrone   61000
USFC: Replay Armagh V Tyrone   32000
USFC: Derry V Armagh   27633
USFC: Tyrone V Cavan   23441
USFC: Armagh V Fermanagh   23107
USFC: Replay Armagh V Donegal      18227
USFC: Tyrone V Down   18200
USFC: Replay Tyrone V Cavan   16492
AIQF: Tyrone V Dublin   78514
AIQF: Armagh V Laois   32187

Even the semi (AISF: Tyrone V Armagh   65858) might have been given to Ulster.

Additionally factor in any aussie rules match.

[SammyG]

FFS Snatter this is getting boring. You are quoting the marketting proposal, it's in the BBC link that you provided. This is nothing more than a kite-flying exercise by Poots, there are NO PLANS AND NO BUDGET to make the stadium have different capacities at different times. There isn't even a discussion paper to look at options of how it might be done or any examples of any other stadia that have changing capacity.

Also as discussed (loads of times) the capacity issue is irrelevant the problem is infrastruture.

[GweylTah]

Don't want the GAA to have anything to do with the stadium anyway.

Is that because it would be being shared with foreign games?

If your view is representative of GAA fans, then perhaps someone would tell the Ulster GAA, for  if there is hostility, disinterest or no need in the GAA in a new, shared facility, then it seems a mixture of spite and farce that GAA vetoes on size, location and pitch size (OK, that one's reasonable) are currently forcing this issue.

[snatter]

SammyG,

FFS Snatter this is getting boring. You are quoting the marketting proposal, it's in the BBC link that you provided. This is nothing more than a kite-flying exercise by Poots, there are NO PLANS AND NO BUDGET to make the stadium have different capacities at different times. There isn't even a discussion paper to look at options of how it might be done or any examples of any other stadia that have changing capacity.

you're right, it is boring but again, in the interest of correctness, I have to reaffirm that you wrong.
This capacity is not a marketing proposal - rather, these are redrafted specifications that have been agreed by all associations and have submitted to HOK.
HOK will very shortly produce their design proposal on the basis of a 35k / 42k capacity.
I read around the time of the assembly elections that it is due shortly.
We'll all find out what the proposal is then.
In the menatime, you can warp your thoughts any way you like.

SammyG,

funny - you say there are

no plans/details

to provide dual capacity of 42k/35k.
You then say that you agree with the BBC report, the first line of which says

THAT PLANS FOR A NEW SPORTS STADIUM AT THE MAZE HAVE BEEN REDRAWN

.....

The new plan will see a 35,000 seater venue for soccer and rugby, but some seats would be removed to allow up to 12,000 GAA fans to stand.

The government hoped the new plans will accommodate fans from all three sports.

So there you have it Sammy. Just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it untrue.

In fact posters, read the article yourselves and make your own minds up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6149096.stm


Plan for new Maze stadium redrawn

The BBC has learned that plans for a new sports stadium at the Maze have been redrawn after talks with the three sports who would use the arena.

They were changed after a meeting with officials from the three sports - GAA, soccer and rugby - who will use it.

The new plan will see a 35,000 seater venue for soccer and rugby, but some seats would be removed to allow up to 12,000 GAA fans to stand.

The government hoped the new plans will accommodate fans from all three sports.

The original capacity for the proposed all-seater stadium was 30,000.

It was then increased to 42,000 largely to accommodate the GAA, but soccer fans were outraged claiming Northern Ireland international games would rarely, if ever, attract attendances of that size.

They argued that the atmosphere at games would suffer from there being so many empty seats.

Compromise

Now, as a compromise, there will be a 35,000 seat capacity for soccer and rugby games - while the stadium will be re-configured for GAA with 5,000 seats taken out and up to 12,000 fans being allowed to stand as is the case at Croke Park.

When contacted by the BBC a spokesman for the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure said: "Following the recent meeting of the Maze/Long Kesh monitoring group with the three main sports all stakeholders involved in the development of the site agreed the way forward for the stadium plan.

"This included the incorporation of seating and standing flexibility into the stadium design process. The second round design bids are due back on the 28 November and government expect to appoint the preferred bidder by Christmas."

It also hoped to seek expressions of interests for naming rights for the new stadium next month.

A number of international companies are understood to be interested.

The minister responsible for the Maze, David Hanson, said recently that a decision on whether or not the stadium would go ahead will not be made until the end of 2007.

Demolition of the Maze site is expected to be completed in November 2007.

Belfast City Council has a rival plan to build a 25,000 seat stadium at Ormeau Park.

Developers have been asked to submit final bids by the end of February and the Council says its hopes to be in a position to select a preferred developer by May.

[SammyG]

Snatter

Ok I give up, you win,  if you believe it's agreed (as you clearly do), what is the plan, what is the budget, how will it work?

[snatter]

Interesting that you choose  Croker and the MS as examples. Can you tell me whether those two stadia are in city centre locations and conform to all the accepted wisdom of stadium design or if they're in a field in the middle of nowhere?

As compared to the Emirates and Twickenham, both inner city sites and both choked by appalling congestion on match days.
The big problem with Ormeau, and indeed anywhere in Ni is the lack of any meaningful public transport architecture.

Think again. The vast majority of fans who will use the Maze stadium (using latest 2005 attendance figures as quoted earlier), will be GAA fans originating from the rural south and western counties of Northern Ireland. It will lead to much less congestion if they don't have to travel into Belfast.

The numbers travelling from Belfast will be small and insignificant in comparison, eg for NI soccer matches

[snatter]

Snatter

Ok I give up, you win,  if you believe it's agreed (as you clearly do), what is the plan, what is the budget, how will it work?

I AM right regarding capacity specifications - have patience and wait for the HOK design proposal.
In the meantime, you can stop pedalling crap.

As for budget - my expectation would be that this won't differ from any other project - get teh design in, cost it, agree contributions, sign contracts if happy / walk away if not.

I'm sure many prooperty developers oon the forum could give more details, but that's the gist.

ps - I'm still waiting for you to prove your unfounded comments below, or withdraw them:

Quote
You've already admitted that this is nothig more than a potential marketting proposal

Bollocks. I've said nothing of the sort. Again - Prove it.

[SammyG]

Think again. The vast majority of fans who will use the Maze stadium (using latest 2005 attendance figures as quoted earlier), will be GAA fans originating from the rural south and western counties of Northern Ireland. It will lead to much less congestion if they don't have to travel into Belfast.

The numbers travelling from Belfast will be small and insignificant in comparison, eg for NI soccer matches

It doesn't matter if you're travelling from Belfast, Derry, Armagh, Dublin or London, there is no way of getting a crowd to the Maze and no budget or capacity to fix it. That is the whole crux of the issue.

[SammyG]

Snatter

Ok I give up, you win,  if you believe it's agreed (as you clearly do), what is the plan, what is the budget, how will it work?

I AM right regarding capacity specifications - have patience and wait for the HOK design proposal.
In the meantime, you can stop pedalling crap.

As for budget - my expectation would be that this won't differ from any other project - get teh design in, cost it, agree contributions, sign contracts if happy / walk away if not.

I'm sure many prooperty developers oon the forum could give more details, but that's the gist.

ps - I'm still waiting for you to prove your unfounded comments below, or withdraw them:

Quote
You've already admitted that this is nothig more than a potential marketting proposal

Bollocks. I've said nothing of the sort. Again - Prove it.

You've just proved it yourself. You've posted a marketting proposal and admitted that there are no details. 

[snatter]

Quote from: snatter on Today at 08:22:18 PM
The NI soccer brigade in particular should have more confidence in their ability to draw a crowd.
The issue of 'drawing a crowd' is totally irrelevant. The Maze is an unsustainable white elephant, whether we draw a crowd or not.
Quote from: snatter on Today at 08:22:18 PM
Look at those soccer figures - they're pitiful.
Full to capacity with an extra 4 or 5K looking for tickets is hardly pitiful.
Quote from: snatter on Today at 08:22:18 PM
A new stadium, in a new neutral location might draw out thousands of new fans who wouldn't want to go to the village.
100% agree, who's mentioned anybody going to the Village? No-one is seriously suggesting staying at WP and all the Belfast options are totally neutral.
Quote from: snatter on Today at 08:22:18 PM
Somebody on the board said recently that the NI jersey has sold 40k copies - surely the soccer marketing men should be able to translate that into bums on seats for you. If not, why not, what's the problem?

Totally nonsensical argument on so many levels.

Quote from: snatter on Today at 08:22:18 PM
You should have more confidence in yourselves and stop sniping at an organisation that has managed to make their games attractive family days out.
Accept the reality that GAA is currently more popular, move on, and start taking a good hard look at yourselves.

Totally agree, for all the problems with the GAA, marketing is not one of them. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion though.

The relevance was that Gwaytah had drawn attention to what  he perceived to be small attendances at teh Antrim v Derry match. He surmised that the GAA would have no need for a large capacity.

I had to highlight the full attendance 2005 figures, and in doing so, I wished to highlight that Gwaytah's problem with capacity possibly lay in the inability of NI soccer to market itself and get its support base to actually turn up and watch a match.