26 counties poll for local elections.

[magpie seanie]

Jaysus, we are one f**king stupid electorate, as if we didn't already know ...

A. Vote for the lads that crippled the country
B. Vote for the lads that are making us pay property tax, water charges, USC, that couldnt get us a good deal with the EU, and that are reducing public service levels
C. Vote for the lads who would make an economic recovery an impossbility
D. Vote for an Independent who will find it difficult to do anything other than disrupt those who try to govern.
E. Don't vote

It is the electorate in Camp A, B, C, D or E who are the f*uckin stupid ones??

A and B are a subset of C.

[AZOffaly]

I didn't vote FF this time either, but are Fine Gael and Labour really that much better? I voted for the local Labour Candidate in the Council elections, but would I vote for Alan Kelly again in the GE? I don't know. I voted SF in the European election.

[Billys Boots]

Well my view is that economic revovery is not under any one party's direct control - putting structures in place to make it more likely is all that can be done, and I think it is being done by the incumbents.  Whether any of the rest of them can or could do so is undetermined, but I don't think any of them could do it less painfully for everyone - so then it becomes a question of who should take most/more of the pain.  If taxes are not increased, then services must be decreased.  So:

A = FF; they got us here and shouldn't be trusted ever again (in my view); the party should fold and they should hitch their collective wagons to whichever 'ideology' fits their worldview today/tomorrow/whenever.  For the sake of our collective mental health, FF should never be on a ballot paper ever again.

B=FG/Lab; schooled in Social Democrat economics, they'll always look the same - boring, play the percentages, safe fiscal and economic policies and practices. What you see is what you get - will get us out of a mess and be hated and punished for it.  This is mainly why I think the electorate are f*cking stupid.

C=SF; the golden children - no experience, nice pictures and well able to spin; should be able to attract the rump of FF to paint a rosy picture for the masses.  Their early performance in Govt in NI doesn't set them apart yet in terms of delivery of promises - will be interesting to see how they get on in local government.  I won't be holding my breath.

D=Indies; the 'get out of jail' card - containing everything from far-left to far-right, the splitters to the nutters, but also some sensible people.  I tend to vote independent for local elections because they can be relied on to be forced into action in relation to local issues (i.e. can't hide behind party HQ 'policy'). 

E.  No comment.

[Hound]

Jaysus, we are one f**king stupid electorate, as if we didn't already know ...

A. Vote for the lads that crippled the country
B. Vote for the lads that are making us pay property tax, water charges, USC, that couldnt get us a good deal with the EU, and that are reducing public service levels
C. Vote for the lads who would make an economic recovery an impossbility
D. Vote for an Independent who will find it difficult to do anything other than disrupt those who try to govern.
E. Don't vote

It is the electorate in Camp A, B, C, D or E who are the f*uckin stupid ones??

A and B are a subset of C.

Nope, C is Sinn Fein (and possibly include the AAA).

Economy is definitely improving under B, but no getting away from the fact that its a painful process and mistakes have been made.

At least now that C is a viable alternative in terms of voting power, they will have to come up with proper costed and published economic policy, which should mean they ditch some of the populist nonsense and come up with realistic taxing and spending policies (the major thing being to hopefully confirm they won't touch the 12.5% corporation tax rate).

[Maguire01]

But will option C bank all the difficult adjustments made to date or reverse them?

[AZOffaly]

Well my view is that economic revovery is not under any one party's direct control - putting structures in place to make it more likely is all that can be done, and I think it is being done by the incumbents.  Whether any of the rest of them can or could do so is undetermined, but I don't think any of them could do it less painfully for everyone - so then it becomes a question of who should take most/more of the pain.  If taxes are not increased, then services must be decreased.  So:

A = FF; they got us here and shouldn't be trusted ever again (in my view); the party should fold and they should hitch their collective wagons to whichever 'ideology' fits their worldview today/tomorrow/whenever.  For the sake of our collective mental health, FF should never be on a ballot paper ever again.

B=FG/Lab; schooled in Social Democrat economics, they'll always look the same - boring, play the percentages, safe fiscal and economic policies and practices. What you see is what you get - will get us out of a mess and be hated and punished for it.  This is mainly why I think the electorate are f*cking stupid.

C=SF; the golden children - no experience, nice pictures and well able to spin; should be able to attract the rump of FF to paint a rosy picture for the masses.  Their early performance in Govt in NI doesn't set them apart yet in terms of delivery of promises - will be interesting to see how they get on in local government.  I won't be holding my breath.

D=Indies; the 'get out of jail' card - containing everything from far-left to far-right, the splitters to the nutters, but also some sensible people.  I tend to vote independent for local elections because they can be relied on to be forced into action in relation to local issues (i.e. can't hide behind party HQ 'policy'). 

E.  No comment.

Decent summary, although I think if FF can prove they have cleaned house, including the likes of Micheal Martin, then they can be rehabilitated. FG and Labour have done some good work, but largely implementing the same policies that FF themselves said would have to happen when the 'Oh Shit' moment occured. Also FG and Labour, especially FG can hardly he said to have been a voice for restraint back in the boom times. I recall FG front benchers roaring at various Finance ministers for not spending enough.

Finally, I don't accept that you have to INCREASE taxes, or else DECREASE services. You can look at value for money, because it's bullshit to say that we are getting the services we already pay for. Increasing taxes to pay back the Germans is not my idea of a public service either.

I also refrain from the smugness of calling the electorate stupid, unless you decide that every electorate everywhere are stupid. In which case the phrase 'people are stupid' is more appropriate, and no less smug.

I think the issue is the alternatives are so much the polar opposites of the central parties that it's a big jump to vote for them. It's easy to vote for Paddy Joe in the locals, but would you really send an independent to the Dail. The fact that more and more people are doing just that is indicative that people are NOT stupid, but they are struggling for a viable alternative that can make their message heard. I think SF are doing that now, and that's why they are eating up Labour. But FF and FG voters (essentially the same people I think, because the party policies are almost identical) would flock to a new, clean, party that espoused centre right or centre left thinking, but who was standing on a 'clean up the system' platform with clear proposals.

[Billys Boots]

I recall FG front benchers roaring at various Finance ministers for not spending enough.

You're kidding, right - I know you must be?

Increasing taxes to pay back the Germans is not my idea of a public service either.

The 'Germans' were the only ones with enough decency to help us out - I think that should read 'Increasing taxes to pay back the Fianna Fail mismanagement debacle is not my idea of a public service either'. 

I also refrain from the smugness of calling the electorate stupid

If anger and frustration comes across as smugness then I am very guilty indeed.

[AZOffaly]

I recall FG front benchers roaring at various Finance ministers for not spending enough.

You're kidding, right - I know you must be?

Increasing taxes to pay back the Germans is not my idea of a public service either.

I'm not kidding. Show me the joke.

[Billys Boots]

I recall FG front benchers roaring at various Finance ministers for not spending enough.

You're kidding, right - I know you must be?

Increasing taxes to pay back the Germans is not my idea of a public service either.

I'm not kidding. Show me the joke.

The joke is that 'experienced' politicans are claiming the 'he told me to do it' excuse beloved of primary school children.  The dog ate all those taxes we wasted, I mean, don't have any more. 

[AZOffaly]

I still don't get it? Are you saying that Fine Gael were not encouraging more spending back in the boom? I'm saying they both have very similar outlooks.

[Billys Boots]

I'm saying that politicians who are not holding the purse strings are liable (wrongly) to say anything to insinuate that those who are (holding the purse strings) are doing it badly - I draw your attention to the past week, for instance. 

[AZOffaly]

OK. I understand that. Opposition for opposition's sake. Which is bullshit. However, there is very little I've seen in either behaviour back then, election manifestos or even performance since coming into power, which would make me think that Fine Gael are anything other than Fianna Fail with blue colours, from the Civil War. If the Civil War never happened, I think Fine Gael and Fianna Fail would be the same party.

[Billys Boots]

If the Civil War never happened, I think Fine Gael and Fianna Fail would be the same party.

I used to think that but now I don't.  My reading of it is that FG are committed to the Social Democrat model - FF are committed to, em, being elected to do whatever tastes nice.  FF will target cuts/benefits to help those who keep them in power and who influence those who will keep them in power.  FG play the manual and hurt education, health and social welfare - in Scandinavia they've played this tune for the last god-knows-how long (> 50yrs) and they continue to grow at a nice even rate, and have the highest standard of living on the planet.  If they didn't have gobshites trying to sell papers/advertising they'd be the happiest people alive.  We, on the other hand ...

[magpie seanie]

Jaysus, we are one f**king stupid electorate, as if we didn't already know ...

A. Vote for the lads that crippled the country
B. Vote for the lads that are making us pay property tax, water charges, USC, that couldnt get us a good deal with the EU, and that are reducing public service levels
C. Vote for the lads who would make an economic recovery an impossbility
D. Vote for an Independent who will find it difficult to do anything other than disrupt those who try to govern.
E. Don't vote

It is the electorate in Camp A, B, C, D or E who are the f*uckin stupid ones??

A and B are a subset of C.

Nope, C is Sinn Fein (and possibly include the AAA).

Economy is definitely improving under B, but no getting away from the fact that its a painful process and mistakes have been made.

At least now that C is a viable alternative in terms of voting power, they will have to come up with proper costed and published economic policy, which should mean they ditch some of the populist nonsense and come up with realistic taxing and spending policies (the major thing being to hopefully confirm they won't touch the 12.5% corporation tax rate).

That's your opinion but I think it's highly questionable. I don't accept that the economic situtation is improving. Didn't we have Noonan on about 2 billion in tax hikes and cuts a few weeks ago? Austerity is paying bank debt but crippling ordinary people and by its very nature retards economic growth.

I do not accept that SF or whoever you mean in group C would "make make an economic recovery an impossbility". Interesting that you take the line of SF's policies not being costed - something SF vehemently deny. Brian Hayes saying it would not be possible to cost a "wealth tax" the other night seemed laughable to me. I agree that the 12.5% CT rate needs to be kept to attract inward investment and promote job creation but is it really correct for all companies to avail of this rate? In a country where we cannot afford medical cards for people who are dying or seriously ill, proper care for sick and disabled people is it right that a compnay employing 5 or 6 people gets the same tax incentive as a company employing 5/6000? It needs to be discussed at the very least.

What got us here was closed minds and groupthink. We need to get away from that and challenge "accepted wisdom". If it holds up then good but if it needs changing then change it. I think we have huge scope for recovery and sustainable economic and social growth if we have brave leadership who will try to do things on their merits and not in some pre-determined (by Europe) join the dots type approach. SF and others may well turn out to be no use but FF/FG/Lab have proven over the last 95 years that they are no use.

[AZOffaly]

Seanie, I think there's a small bit of obfuscation going on with regard to 'costings'. I mentioned on another thread that I heard Pat Rabbitte and Pearse Doherty going on about this yesterday, and Pat Rabbitte said that Sinn Fein have never costed a proper Budget. They have costed individual measures, but never a balanced budget. Pearse wasn't able to really take that argument apart. That makes me wonder.