New Saints

[The Iceman]

Without organized religion then we'd all just be making up our own rules as we went along.

Or, we'd have some kind of political system where laws are made and enforced.

I'm talking about from a spiritual perspective. If you are a subscribing Christian but claim to not need organized religion then you are making up your own rules as you go along. Jesus gave us a church as the pillar and foundation of spiritual truth. First came the church then came the bible.

Not sure what he did but JP II's attributed Miracles are well documented.

And about as water-tight as Derry's defence in Croke Park yesterday. Like seriously, it's a case of "we can't explain it, so it must be a miracle, and it must be down to JP II".

From a spiritual perspective their reasoning is sound. They who's and why's of miracle's ultimately don't have to weigh up to your standards. Again I'm not entirely happy with his appointment but I leave that as it may be...

Well if your responses are all "from a spiritual perspective", there's little point in me countering with logic.

My thoughts exactly

[magpie seanie]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

[The Iceman]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

where do these beliefs and opinions come from though Seanie? How are they formed?

[johnneycool]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

where do these beliefs and opinions come from though Seanie? How are they formed?

Probably ingrained indoctrination/brainwashing through your formative years at school, home or wherever the catholic church spun its web of control.

[magpie seanie]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

where do these beliefs and opinions come from though Seanie? How are they formed?

Sorry - I don't follow. What beliefs and opinions are you on about? If it's my own then they were formed from my experiences. Largely influenced by my upbringing as a practising catholic - the vast majority of which was very good. However, some of the rubbish Rome comes out with and the way the abuse situations have been handled can't be ignored. This doesn't represent what the church should be in my opinion.

[The Iceman]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

where do these beliefs and opinions come from though Seanie? How are they formed?

Sorry - I don't follow. What beliefs and opinions are you on about? If it's my own then they were formed from my experiences. Largely influenced by my upbringing as a practising catholic - the vast majority of which was very good. However, some of the rubbish Rome comes out with and the way the abuse situations have been handled can't be ignored. This doesn't represent what the church should be in my opinion.

i meant the idea that you dont have to attend mass to worship god or be part of organized religion. where does that come from?

[muppet]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

where do these beliefs and opinions come from though Seanie? How are they formed?

Sorry - I don't follow. What beliefs and opinions are you on about? If it's my own then they were formed from my experiences. Largely influenced by my upbringing as a practising catholic - the vast majority of which was very good. However, some of the rubbish Rome comes out with and the way the abuse situations have been handled can't be ignored. This doesn't represent what the church should be in my opinion.

i meant the idea that you dont have to attend mass to worship god or be part of organized religion. where does that come from?

It comes from the Church Iceman. Manmade rules.

[Maguire01]

Of all Catholic rituals, canonisation is nonsense

So former popes John XXIII and John Paul II are saints for their 'miracles'. At such times I sympathise with intelligent Catholics

Simon Jenkins
theguardian.com, Monday 28 April 2014 10.18 BST

Two new saints were declared at the weekend. Amid euphoric scenes in Vatican Square, Pope Francis defied his modernisation drive by canonising two of his recent predecessors. The world's press indulged the occasion as one of universal joy. Even if they did regard it as barking mad, they thought it bad form to rain on someone else's parade.

Of all Catholic rituals, sanctification drips with medieval nonsense. A prospective saint is nominated, investigated by a committee and, if displaying "heroic virtues", is tested for a miracle. Since a miracle is an act of God answering a prayer, it must be medically "inexplicable", putting some pressure on the doctors concerned. Only martyrs do not need miracles for saintliness.

This leads to beatification, followed by canonisation if a second miracle is "scientifically proven" within five years of the candidate's death. Apparently the potency of saintly intercession wanes after a period. These rules can be waived if the candidate is a huge celebrity, like Mother Teresa. The committee was clearly keen on John XXIII and John Paul II, even if it seemed a trade union stitch-up for popes to move so briskly from office to sanctity. It is an echo of Britain's House of Lords.

At such times I can sympathise with intelligent Catholics. Loyal to their tribe, they wrestle with virgin birth, papal infallibility, transubstantiation and much nonsense about sex. They explain away the rituals of the church as clothing God's relationship with humans in familiar metaphors and ceremonies; some punitive, some heart-warming, like sainthood. The Congregation for the Causes of Saints – which oversees the canonisation process – should be seen as merely conducting a Vatican X Factor.

I am less indulgent. There is a notorious potency to the narratives of religious faith, throughout history a means by which elites have ruled the lives of the gullible. At a time when more death and destruction is being perpetrated in the name of religion than for many decades past, sensible people should guard against nonsense in its name, however ostensibly harmless.

Western atheists may deride what they see as authoritarian and intolerant aspects of Islam, the Hindu worship of deities in animal form, voodoo or the zanier tenets of oriental mysticism. It sees them as holding back the march of reason and civilisation, indeed of democracy and peace. The Catholic predilection for saints is the same. Religion may be a comfort to millions, to be respected as such, but it is also a menace to millions and as such deserves no respect at all.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/28/catholic-rituals-canonisation-nonsense-popes-john-xxxiii-john-paul-ii

[The Iceman]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

where do these beliefs and opinions come from though Seanie? How are they formed?

Sorry - I don't follow. What beliefs and opinions are you on about? If it's my own then they were formed from my experiences. Largely influenced by my upbringing as a practising catholic - the vast majority of which was very good. However, some of the rubbish Rome comes out with and the way the abuse situations have been handled can't be ignored. This doesn't represent what the church should be in my opinion.

i meant the idea that you dont have to attend mass to worship god or be part of organized religion. where does that come from?

It comes from the Church Iceman. Manmade rules.

My point is that these opinions weren't just made up by Seanie or you. These opinions surely are founded in your interpretation of the bible.
If you believe in God and you believe you can go it alone then good luck to you.
If you believe in God I would think your best shot at His promise of Salvation is to follow the rules put in place by His Son and that live on in the teachings of the church today as well as the sacraments.

[magpie seanie]

Ok - I get you now. My "interpretation of the bible" - possibly a bit too formal of an explanation. Would be the feeling I have from all I have experienced and learned. Just feels right to me. For me, sitting in a beautiful peaceful, place and appreciating it and how lucky I am is worth 100 masses. It might be different for others and that's perfect too.

[johnneycool]

People attend mass to worship God, don't they? God is like one organisation, the church the other. I figured you'd get that.

Really, God is an organisation?

Who else is in His organisation?

You don't have to attend mass to worship God. I actually think blindly following a formulaic appoach to spirituality is the opposite of worship.

where do these beliefs and opinions come from though Seanie? How are they formed?

Sorry - I don't follow. What beliefs and opinions are you on about? If it's my own then they were formed from my experiences. Largely influenced by my upbringing as a practising catholic - the vast majority of which was very good. However, some of the rubbish Rome comes out with and the way the abuse situations have been handled can't be ignored. This doesn't represent what the church should be in my opinion.

i meant the idea that you dont have to attend mass to worship god or be part of organized religion. where does that come from?

It comes from the Church Iceman. Manmade rules.

My point is that these opinions weren't just made up by Seanie or you. These opinions surely are founded in your interpretation of the bible.
If you believe in God and you believe you can go it alone then good luck to you.
If you believe in God I would think your best shot at His promise of Salvation is to follow the rules put in place by His Son and that live on in the teachings of the church today as well as the sacraments.

Did Jesus hold weekly masses, I never knew that?

Were they Saturday evening ones or Sunday morning ones?

[muppet]

My point is that these opinions weren't just made up by Seanie or you. These opinions surely are founded in your interpretation of the bible.
If you believe in God and you believe you can go it alone then good luck to you.
If you believe in God I would think your best shot at His promise of Salvation is to follow the rules put in place by His Son and that live on in the teachings of the church today as well as the sacraments.

Iceman I have posted a question here many times that none of the devout will tackle.

I will naively ask it again.

Why follow the teachings of the Archbishop of Rome when the Papacy is based on a known forgery? This forgery was even accepted by the Vatican in the 1600s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

[give her dixie]

Spanish government to face court after policing award given to the Virgin Mary


Spain's government is being taken to court over a minister's decision to give the country's top policing award to a statue of the Virgin Mary.

The country's interior minister, Jorge Fernández Díaz, singled out an icon of the Virgin Mary, in Málaga, to receive the gold medal of police merit – which is normally reserved for police who have died in terrorist attacks.

Announcing the award in February, Díaz lauded the Virgin and her congregation for "maintaining a close collaboration with police, particularly during the acts celebrated in Holy Week, and for sharing police values such as dedication, caring, solidarity and sacrifice".

The award has infuriated secularists, who are demanding the medal be revoked, given that the Virgin and her congregation had "failed" to meet any of the minimum requirements.

"The norm specifies clearly that the medal is given to people not immaterial beings," said Francisco Delgado, of Secular Europe. "It's meant to recognise exceptional acts of service by police."

His group has joined forces with the Movement Towards A Secular State (Movimiento hacia un estado laico) to bring the interior minister to court. The case will be heard in June.

Although Spain's 1978 constitution enshrines the separation of church and state, the boundary between the two remains blurred, said Delgado, whose organisation was created in 2001 by a group of professors dismayed at the slow pace of Spain's transition to secularism.

"There are still so many ties to the church that Spain has never got rid of. The Spanish state still provides millions of euros a year to the Catholic church, there are Catholic schools financed heavily by the state."

This year the interior minister was taken to task by the opposition for saying that Saint Teresa was "making important intercessions" for Spain "during these tough times".

The Virgin Mary, in Málaga, is not the only Virgin to have been recognised by the minister. In 2012, the Guardia Civil's highest honour was granted to Zaragoza's Virgin of Pillar, the institution's patron saint. In the decree, Díaz said the award paid tribute to the "deep roots of the patronage of the Virgin of Pillar, which remains part of the heritage of the Guardia Civil".

Still, the medal awarded in February caught the national police by surprise.

José María Benito, from the police officers' union, told the online daily El Boletín: "Give the Virgin whatever you like, take her some flowers, make her the patron saint of our people, but don't give her a police medal, least of all one reserved for police officers who have lost their lives in an attack."As the government muddies the line between church and state, Delgado's group has consistently lodged complaints. However they had shied away from court action until now, said Delgado. "The little separation between political and judicial power in Spain means that the justice system often sides with politicians."

This time the clear-cut nature of this case emboldened them to take the risk, he said. "We thought it time the courts pronounced on these acts that seem to be more from the 18th century than the 21st." The case will be heard in June.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/29/spanish-govt-court-after-award-given-to-virgin-mary

[Banter Panther]

^Jeebus that's like something I'd write! A quare shtory Dixie 

[The Iceman]

My point is that these opinions weren't just made up by Seanie or you. These opinions surely are founded in your interpretation of the bible.
If you believe in God and you believe you can go it alone then good luck to you.
If you believe in God I would think your best shot at His promise of Salvation is to follow the rules put in place by His Son and that live on in the teachings of the church today as well as the sacraments.

Iceman I have posted a question here many times that none of the devout will tackle.

I will naively ask it again.

Why follow the teachings of the Archbishop of Rome when the Papacy is based on a known forgery? This forgery was even accepted by the Vatican in the 1600s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

Sorry muppet I really didn't think there was anything to defend. There is a difference between temporal and spiritual power - surely you see that?
The Catholic Church was founded on Christ, not on a forgery. What, exactly, do you believe the Church has "admitted" regarding the Donation of Constantine? Certainly it is a forgery of unknown origin. But, the Church's temporal power did not come from the document. Likewise, the Church made *no* pronouncement on faith or morals based on the document so it's spiritual power has nothing to do with it either.

Not sure what you are proving here or what needs to be defended?