Tyrone v Mayo - 9th Feb in Omagh - Deferred coverage on TG4

[Lar Naparka]

I had expected Horan and the team to take the league seriously this year and go flat out to win it, same as Gavin and the Dubs last year.
The win set them up nicely for the championships and the rest, as we say, is history.
Coming off the back of two AI final defeats, Mayo badly need a good morale booster to overcome the feelings of self-doubt and indecisiveness that must be affecting them now. Right now, there's a real possibility of relegation and that would knock our hopes of winning Sam for years to come. You can only go to the well for water so many times...
I know its only February and we've a long list of injuries. Many of those we've seen in the first two league games won't be in the reckoning when the championships begin and so on and so forth.
But Kildare and Tyrone are hardly at full strength either and the same goes for Kerry and the Dubs and just about every other team in the land. From what I've seen so far, Adam Gallagher is the only newcomer who seems likely to make it onto the championship side. The same also goes for those who've been on the fringe.
With so many of last year's regulars missing, I'd thought their replacements would fight like mad to force their way onto the championship side. This doesn't seem to be happening. Sure, many of them will improve as the league goes on but right now, Adam seems the only one likely to strengthen the panel in the summertime.
I think Zulu has been right all along when he says that we don't have the forwards to win an AI and I don't blame Horan for all of this. He can only work with what he's got and his options are limited.
If I had to name the top twenty forwards I've seen in recent years, only Andy and Cillian would be on the list and neither is likely to be fully fit when the championships come around. Mayo got half the All Star awards for the backs and not a single one for the forwards. That tells its own tale.

I'm not a pessimist by nature but when I try to look into the future, I don't like what I see.

I don't think Mayo could realistically have gone all out for a league title. For a few reasons.
This panel has already had 3 longish years where incremental progress was made. The priority is to get it right in summer. A sustained slog from Feburary would be difficult. Castlebar s run and the catalogue of injuries also made a league shot highly unlikely. This is division one and few counties have unlimited numbers of players who can perform at this level, let alone go on and win it. Open to contradiction but I reckon Dublin had their championship team, or close to it, for most of the league last year. If we survive in Div one and Adam G continues his form it will be alright under the circumstances. We were never going to find much more anyway. If Pardons recovers and lives up to his ability it will also be an addition. My worry is that our Summer form might level off whereas in fact we need to push and find another 10%.

Ah, there's nothing there I disagree with. It's a case of Hobson's choice for Horan-damned if he does and double damned if he doesn't. BTW, I've no desire to knock Horan or his team. When you consider where Mayo football is now with where it was when he took over, the transformation has been nothing short of miraculous.  Of course, a sustained effort in the league would be difficult but it would beat a drop into Div 2 any day.
My main point here has been that it's gonna be hard to get the team moving again when the championship begins and there's no basis for groundless optimism.
Losing an AI final must be hard on anyone but losing two in succession must be far worse. I think tiredness for a fit athlete is more mental than physical and a bit of silverware at the end of the league campaign or indeed a sustained run would work wonders for the team's morale. The last thing that's needed now is a drop into Div 2. That's not a certainty of course but from what I've seen to date, it's certainly a possibility.
Horan badly needs to find a good forward or two if Mayo are to have any chance of going the full way this year.  Adam Gallagher is looking good and Kevin Mac is showing some signs of a return to form although he seems uncomfortable in his new position. I think Tom Parsons would be a massive addition if he finds his old form and remains injury free. That's two big "ifs." Same goes for Andy and Cillian- both are vital to the cause if Mayo are to go the distance.
That's another pair of them little friggers. "If" is a small word but it carries more clout than any other word of its size.
Look, I'm not saying we're bunched before we begin but I can see no reason for complacency on anybody's part. We'll never get the extra 10% you speak of if the team continues playing the way it had been doing of late.

[larryin89]

I think as we stand , we are in a far worse place than people in the main are thinking. It's all well and dandy saying things like it's only league or  sure didn't we lose league  games last year. I have an awful feeling this year is going to be a disaster (probably the year we'll win it) .

I think we've been found out, we don't have the footballers to mix it up a bit.

Going to have a tenner on both Ross and Galway to win Connacht out of me dole every week till it starts up.

[Syferus]

Start the minors. All of them. They know how to win All-Ireland finals. That'll sort it.

[larryin89]

Haha that's mad , just put a hundred yoyos on Ross to win Connacht about an hour ago as I won a few quid today and fak me they've gone from 14s to 11s since I out it on.

[Dubhaltach]

Would a few of last years Mayo Minor team come into the reckoning after the U-21 campaign is  over? A few classy forwards in that side like Doherty and Conroy, full of confidence. But still a big step up from Minor to Senior in one year, but worth a shot if they perform well with the u21s

Too soon for them imo. But we may well get something out of the U21 campaign.
I can see Zulu s point about forwards an all but come summer if we get injured players back we will have options. Personally I think we ve kicked too much ball into the ff line fairly aimlessly last 2 finals. We should be running the ball. I select on the basis of gaining primary possession and keeping it. We should play to our strengths, one of which is pace. When we ran at teams last year we got scores from a spread of players.

eh...look back and see how Andy's goal came about, Also look at Brogan's sucker punch in the first half for that matter!

That goal in the final came from a long ball in, one of the few we kicked all day! What let us down was our failure to move away from our traditional style of play, i.e. short passing up the field. We had more than enough possession to win that match yet time after time we attempted to walk the ball from one end of the pitch to the other. The final once again proved that you cant win an all Ireland with this method and its high time we move away from it.

I see the old soundbites about Mayo having no marquee forwards are alive and well. In actual fact Andy, Freeman and Cillian are inside forwards as good as what's out there, the problem is we don't kick early ball into them. By the time any of them usually get the ball, the area is congested, they've no space and they're trying to beat around 6 opposition defenders. The other problem with 'running the ball' is that our half back line gets caught in the opposition half far too often, this leads to an acre of space in front of our full back line. How many times was poor Ger Caff left isolated one on one against Brogan in our three games against the Dubs last year. Brogans goal in the first half of the final being the perfect example of what im on about.

Historically, ourselves and Donegal were renowned for this short passing style of play. I believe its no coincidence that the first Donegal team to fundamentally alter their style also went on to win an all Ireland!

[highorlow]

id hate to start a row with you or anybody else but I'm curious to know what "rubbish" you find in my last post.

You mention feelings of self-doubt and indecisiveness.

You mention relegation after two tough away league games which are our first 2 competitive matches of the year (you have to disregard the FBD nonsense). You say if relegation would happen it would knock our hopes of winning Sam for years to come. (we must have been relegated in '52.....)

My post response was not just targeted at the above subjective statements but also meant to be including the other doom merchants who take an over the top view of the league form.

Horan is the best manager we have had in decades, keep the faith, and anyhow shur we can only improve from now once the cobwebs have been shaken off.


   

[moysider]

Would a few of last years Mayo Minor team come into the reckoning after the U-21 campaign is  over? A few classy forwards in that side like Doherty and Conroy, full of confidence. But still a big step up from Minor to Senior in one year, but worth a shot if they perform well with the u21s

Too soon for them imo. But we may well get something out of the U21 campaign.
I can see Zulu s point about forwards an all but come summer if we get injured players back we will have options. Personally I think we ve kicked too much ball into the ff line fairly aimlessly last 2 finals. We should be running the ball. I select on the basis of gaining primary possession and keeping it. We should play to our strengths, one of which is pace. When we ran at teams last year we got scores from a spread of players.

eh...look back and see how Andy's goal came about, Also look at Brogan's sucker punch in the first half for that matter!

That goal in the final came from a long ball in, one of the few we kicked all day! What let us down was our failure to move away from our traditional style of play, i.e. short passing up the field. We had more than enough possession to win that match yet time after time we attempted to walk the ball from one end of the pitch to the other. The final once again proved that you cant win an all Ireland with this method and its high time we move away from it.

I see the old soundbites about Mayo having no marquee forwards are alive and well. In actual fact Andy, Freeman and Cillian are inside forwards as good as what's out there, the problem is we don't kick early ball into them. By the time any of them usually get the ball, the area is congested, they've no space and they're trying to beat around 6 opposition defenders. The other problem with 'running the ball' is that our half back line gets caught in the opposition half far too often, this leads to an acre of space in front of our full back line. How many times was poor Ger Caff left isolated one on one against Brogan in our three games against the Dubs last year. Brogans goal in the first half of the final being the perfect example of what im on about.

Historically, ourselves and Donegal were renowned for this short passing style of play. I believe its no coincidence that the first Donegal team to fundamentally alter their style also went on to win an all Ireland!

Good debate but I ll stick to my guns.

There was a horrendous stat out there ( some other poster might remember it exactly) that Donegal in 2012 scored something like 2-6 from Mayo kicking ball into a ff line that could not win it and Donegal counter-attacking. Played into Donegal's hands.

We scored a heap of goals and points last year from our running game.

Freeman was the only ff in final last year that looked like he could win early ball but was hauled off for some reason.

I m all for early ball into ff line but we dont win enough of it. If we had a Murphy or a Sheehan or Brogan or Cooper that would be the way to go. In our squad we dont have that go-to unmarkable forward yet. But there s more than one way to win at football.

[Lar Naparka]

id hate to start a row with you or anybody else but I'm curious to know what "rubbish" you find in my last post.

You mention feelings of self-doubt and indecisiveness.

You mention relegation after two tough away league games which are our first 2 competitive matches of the year (you have to disregard the FBD nonsense). You say if relegation would happen it would knock our hopes of winning Sam for years to come. (we must have been relegated in '52.....)

My post response was not just targeted at the above subjective statements but also meant to be including the other doom merchants who take an over the top view of the league form.

Horan is the best manager we have had in decades, keep the faith, and anyhow shur we can only improve from now once the cobwebs have been shaken off.

If you read Zulu's last post (#224) you'll find that he has pinpointed Mayo's problems in a concise and coherent manner. That's something I have been unable to do- so far at any rate.
I agree 100% with what he has to say and I think there's no point in rehashing his argument here. IMO, they stand up to criticism and can't be refuted.
However, I have referred to a few other issues and I'll raise them again as I think you've missed my meaning.
James Horan is the best Mayo manager I have seen and I've been following Mayo for more than 50 years.  If he can't land an AI, I don't see anyone who could take over when he retires and go on to win one; not in the near future anyway.
I said relegation was a possibility and it's the last thing Mayo needs right now. Losing two AIs in succession must put tremendous pressure on the players but losing their premier division would add to their problems. After all, Mayo were never relegated since the present league format was adopted, not even under John O'Mahony.
Coupled with two AI defeats, losing first division status is hardly the ideal way to set of in search of Sam once again.
IMO, the rubbish you speak off is coming from those who feel there's no need to worry and everything will click into place once the championship begins.
Moysider said Mayo will need a 10% improvement if they are to have a realistic chance of winning this year and I totally agree with that. But where will than elusive 10% come from?
It is unlikely to come from the forwards unless Horan can work some miracle. To paraphrase Zulu, would Mickey Harte, Eamonn Fitzgerald, Jim Gavin or any other manager for that matter, swop his forwards for James Horan's?
It's time for a reality check and shake off the complacency; there will be no fairytale ending to this year's campaign unless Horan somehow manages to get that elusive 10%

[highorlow]

I see the old soundbites about Mayo having no marquee forwards are alive and well. In actual fact Andy, Freeman and Cillian are inside forwards as good as what's out there, the problem is we don't kick early ball into them. By the time any of them usually get the ball, the area is congested, they've no space and they're trying to beat around 6 opposition defenders. The other problem with 'running the ball' is that our half back line gets caught in the opposition half far too often, this leads to an acre of space in front of our full back line. How many times was poor Ger Caff left isolated one on one against Brogan in our three games against the Dubs last year. Brogans goal in the first half of the final being the perfect example of what im on about.

Good first post Dubhaltach. I mentioned a similar thing on another forum. We need to mix direct football with our blitz running game. As we all know the blitz tactic only works if you take your chances during the phase of possession and then force the opposition half forwards into a defensive role.

We started off well in the 1st two league games but without taking our goal chances, the opposition backs are getting wise to us in relation to our style. In any case the level of fitness for that running game needs to be at its peak, so I wouldn't be too concerned until later in the league. It's probably a blessing in disguise that those early goal chances were missed in these first few games as the cracks would be papered over otherwise.

I would be confident this weakness is now obvious to the management and we should expect a more direct style or more of a mix against Kerry. Anyhow the black card will play right into our hands during the summer as I believe it will benefit naturally running teams like us.

[Bod Mor]

I would be confident this weakness is now obvious to the management and we should expect a more direct style or more of a mix against Kerry. Anyhow the black card will play right into our hands during the summer as I believe it will benefit naturally running teams like us.

It might play into our hands but you have to take into account we could be affected by the black card as well. There was an emphasis last year on the tackle and on turning the ball over, something which Donie Buckley was passionate about. You'd wonder if that good work done last year would have to be re-assessed this year with the black card brought in.
Discipline will be key this year. I'd like to see this team tried out in a few league games:

Hennelly
Cunniffe
Cafferkey
Barrett
Drake
Boyle
Keegan
B Moran
S O'Shea
R Feeney
Higgins
A Gallagher
E Regan (if possible) or M Sweeney
Freeman
A Moran

I know I'm leaving Clarke, Vaughan, McHale, Gibbons, O'Shea, Dillon, Carolan, McLoughlin, C O'Connor, D Coen, Conroy, Varley, Doherty out there as well.
At least we would be able to see who from this bunch can step up to the mark.
I think we need to seriously look a Centre back and I don't think any of our forward spots are really nailed down.
What about this forward line come championship:
Carolan/R Feeney Higgins A.Gallagher
E Regan Freeman A.Moran

[Tubberman]

I would be confident this weakness is now obvious to the management and we should expect a more direct style or more of a mix against Kerry. Anyhow the black card will play right into our hands during the summer as I believe it will benefit naturally running teams like us.

It might play into our hands but you have to take into account we could be affected by the black card as well. There was an emphasis last year on the tackle and on turning the ball over, something which Donie Buckley was passionate about. You'd wonder if that good work done last year would have to be re-assessed this year with the black card brought in.
Discipline will be key this year. I'd like to see this team tried out in a few league games:

Hennelly
Cunniffe
Cafferkey
Barrett
Drake
Boyle
Keegan
B Moran
S O'Shea
R Feeney
Higgins
A Gallagher
E Regan (if possible) or M Sweeney
Feeney
A Moran

I know I'm leaving Clarke, Vaughan, McHale, Gibbons, O'Shea, Dillon, Carolan, McLoughlin, C O'Connor, D Coen, Conroy, Varley, Doherty out there as well.
At least we would be able to see who from this bunch can step up to the mark.
I think we need to seriously look a Centre back and I don't think any of our forward spots are really nailed down.
What about this forward line come championship:
Carolan Higgins A.Gallagher
E Regan Feeney A.Moran

You are leaving out Cillian O'Connor from the championship starting 15. Sorry, but that's just madness.

[Bod Mor]

I would be confident this weakness is now obvious to the management and we should expect a more direct style or more of a mix against Kerry. Anyhow the black card will play right into our hands during the summer as I believe it will benefit naturally running teams like us.

It might play into our hands but you have to take into account we could be affected by the black card as well. There was an emphasis last year on the tackle and on turning the ball over, something which Donie Buckley was passionate about. You'd wonder if that good work done last year would have to be re-assessed this year with the black card brought in.
Discipline will be key this year. I'd like to see this team tried out in a few league games:

Hennelly
Cunniffe
Cafferkey
Barrett
Drake
Boyle
Keegan
B Moran
S O'Shea
R Feeney
Higgins
A Gallagher
E Regan (if possible) or M Sweeney
Feeney
A Moran

I know I'm leaving Clarke, Vaughan, McHale, Gibbons, O'Shea, Dillon, Carolan, McLoughlin, C O'Connor, D Coen, Conroy, Varley, Doherty out there as well.
At least we would be able to see who from this bunch can step up to the mark.
I think we need to seriously look a Centre back and I don't think any of our forward spots are really nailed down.
What about this forward line come championship:
Carolan Higgins A.Gallagher
E Regan Feeney A.Moran

You are leaving out Cillian O'Connor from the championship starting 15. Sorry, but that's just madness.

Sorry, i had assumed he was injured! Swap him with Regan so.

[rosnarun]

That 10% is easily found by getting more out of each player and playing players in theior correct positions .

heres another reason not to be too worried  without pulling any names out of left field this one i think would beat the team that played last sonday
                  Clarke
cuinneffe  A feeney      barrett
Riche feeney vaughan k rodgers
S ose Barry moran
Dillon c connor J doherty
M conroy D Kirby Freeman

[rosnarun]

I would be confident this weakness is now obvious to the management and we should expect a more direct style or more of a mix against Kerry. Anyhow the black card will play right into our hands during the summer as I believe it will benefit naturally running teams like us.

It might play into our hands but you have to take into account we could be affected by the black card as well. There was an emphasis last year on the tackle and on turning the ball over, something which Donie Buckley was passionate about. You'd wonder if that good work done last year would have to be re-assessed this year with the black card brought in.
Discipline will be key this year. I'd like to see this team tried out in a few league games:

Hennelly
Cunniffe
Cafferkey
Barrett
Drake
Boyle
Keegan
B Moran
S O'Shea
R Feeney
Higgins
A Gallagher
E Regan (if possible) or M Sweeney
Feeney
A Moran

I know I'm leaving Clarke, Vaughan, McHale, Gibbons, O'Shea, Dillon, Carolan, McLoughlin, C O'Connor, D Coen, Conroy, Varley, Doherty out there as well.
At least we would be able to see who from this bunch can step up to the mark.
I think we need to seriously look a Centre back and I don't think any of our forward spots are really nailed down.
What about this forward line come championship:
Carolan Higgins A.Gallagher
E Regan Feeney A.Moran

You are leaving out Cillian O'Connor from the championship starting 15. Sorry, but that's just madness.

Sorry, i had assumed he was injured! Swap him with Regan so.

whose the feeney at full forward alan? or is richie going to double up?

[moysider]

Picking teams is a bit of crack but it will be months yet before we know where we stand. But a few interesting scenario ahead.

Everybody fit can both O Shea and Big Barry be started? Or do we go with more mobility if gibbons and parsons are playing well?

Will there be cover for Barrett and Cunniffe?

If fully recovered and on form do Andy, Dillon, McLoughlin and Cillian start? I think they do.