Championship Draw 2014

[J OGorman]

Antrim could defo get to an Ulster final, no real big hitters on our side of the draw, that might bring in a good manager now with a host of players making their way back

Spot on MR2.  First up it's Fermanagh, well they're shite too.  After that Donegal/Derry.  I'd prefer Donegal as we've a win agin them in recent memory (in Bealach Feidh too!) whereas I can only remember a draw agin Derry in 2000.  So the form book says we've a better chance against the Tir Chonaill men.  Then it's the final against whoever comes out of the weak side of the draw. Hopefully Cavan can fulfil their potential as we've a daycent record against them recently.  I'd go for Antrim v Cavan (the traditional Ulster Final).  We really should be seeded.

You Antrim boys are some craic. Seems you missed the fact that McGuinnesses Donegal simply don't compare to that of John Joe Doherty when we couldn't buy a win home or away. The Antrim loss in Ballybofey was pretty much the low point of the past 30 odd years of Donegal football. What made it worse than losing to Ulsters minnows was the man that was in charge of ye. Even accepting the fact that we kicked 19 wides that day and went on to reach a Quarter final, it's still an unforgiveable blot on JJ Dohertys copybook. Couldn't see a repeat if you paid me to. Whoever wins Donegal v Derry appears in the Ulster final as underdogs to a team who deserves to win it given what they've been through on the other side of the draw.

I think they may be taking the piss a little here. 

Donegal perspective on the draw J70? Do you expect a battle in the bogside or something similar to the hiding you gave Derry a couple of years ago in Ballybofey!!

I'm telling you what boys, this could be a clinker. How do Donegal react after MayoGate? Hunger there for another rattle? Cant see any retirements. Derry, how are we progessing under Brian and the Paddy posse? Cruciate's a plenty? 1 more year for Paddy B? Good cover in midfield? Big big test for both teams on the easier side of the draw. In Celtic Pk of all places too, who'd have thunk it?!

[Rossfan]

If you want 4 groups of 8 and the provincial championships as well, there is one solution.
You could have qualifying rounds to get into the Ulster and Leinster championships with losers playing in Munster and Connacht.

So Down and Tyrone would compete to see who plays in the last 8 of Ulster and losers would play in Connacht. Depending on draw it could be any team in Ulster competing in Connacht on a given year.
As the most northern in Leinster the losers of Westmeath v Louth would also play in Connacht.

The losers of Wicklow v Laois and Longford v Offaly would play in Munster.

This would leave 4 groups of 8 in each province and each team has a chance of winning their home provincial championships as well.

I thought you were. serious for a minute but now I see clearly this is just a pisstake.
Good joke 

[Farrandeelin]

time I remember Longford playing Offaly was 1997 I think and we got a hiding in Tullamore.....might get home advantage this time around but prize of playing Wexford yet again is hardly that enticing! Leinster just another cake walk for the Dubs it would seem unfortunately

If I recalls Offaly 5-13 Longford 0-09

I didn't go to that one. Thankfully. Offaly were on fire that year under Lyons.

Yeah and they took a bit of a slapping in the AI semi. One of our better AI semis and we did the now familiar September splits. Of all of the magnificent 7 failures that is the one that still f**ks my mind up the most - even more so than a couple of weeks ago.

I was only 10 at the time moy, but my dad reckons the same.

[AZOffaly]

That was the one where a mediocre Kerry team, inspired by Maurice Fitz, won it, despite Maurice accidentaly breaking Billy O'shea's leg. What was the name of the lad that was left on Maurice all day, holmes was it? He got an awful roasting..

If ye had let us beat ye that year, I reckon we could have taken Kerry because Cathal Daly would have followed Maurice everywhere.

[J70]

Antrim could defo get to an Ulster final, no real big hitters on our side of the draw, that might bring in a good manager now with a host of players making their way back

Spot on MR2.  First up it's Fermanagh, well they're shite too.  After that Donegal/Derry.  I'd prefer Donegal as we've a win agin them in recent memory (in Bealach Feidh too!) whereas I can only remember a draw agin Derry in 2000.  So the form book says we've a better chance against the Tir Chonaill men.  Then it's the final against whoever comes out of the weak side of the draw. Hopefully Cavan can fulfil their potential as we've a daycent record against them recently.  I'd go for Antrim v Cavan (the traditional Ulster Final).  We really should be seeded.

You Antrim boys are some craic. Seems you missed the fact that McGuinnesses Donegal simply don't compare to that of John Joe Doherty when we couldn't buy a win home or away. The Antrim loss in Ballybofey was pretty much the low point of the past 30 odd years of Donegal football. What made it worse than losing to Ulsters minnows was the man that was in charge of ye. Even accepting the fact that we kicked 19 wides that day and went on to reach a Quarter final, it's still an unforgiveable blot on JJ Dohertys copybook. Couldn't see a repeat if you paid me to. Whoever wins Donegal v Derry appears in the Ulster final as underdogs to a team who deserves to win it given what they've been through on the other side of the draw.

I think they may be taking the piss a little here. 

Donegal perspective on the draw J70? Do you expect a battle in the bogside or something similar to the hiding you gave Derry a couple of years ago in Ballybofey!!

We've no reason (or right) to expect a repeat of the 2012 game. After this season, Donegal have a lot to prove, and with the changes in the backroom, who knows what to expect. Is McGuinness the tactical genius who (the implosion post-Tyrone this year excepted) always gets his changes and moves during games right, or did Rory Gallagher contribute a lot to that particular aspect of our recent success? And what of Derry? They certainly can't be any worse than they were that day! Presumably they'll be much better. We'll see where we stand after the league. McBrearty will be a year older, Ryan McHugh will presumably be weaved into the team as well. Ryan Bradley has emigrated, but (IMO) a superior replacement, Ciaran Bonner, has rejoined the panel (although I'm skeptical of this - he couldn't consistently meet Brian McIvor and John Joe Doherty's disciplinary requirements - can he provide the dedication McGuinness demands?). Bonner is big, a good score taker and ideal for the fast-breaking, running game McGuinness favours, so hopefully he'll stay and still be up to intercounty standard.

[J70]

Antrim could defo get to an Ulster final, no real big hitters on our side of the draw, that might bring in a good manager now with a host of players making their way back

Spot on MR2.  First up it's Fermanagh, well they're shite too.  After that Donegal/Derry.  I'd prefer Donegal as we've a win agin them in recent memory (in Bealach Feidh too!) whereas I can only remember a draw agin Derry in 2000.  So the form book says we've a better chance against the Tir Chonaill men.  Then it's the final against whoever comes out of the weak side of the draw. Hopefully Cavan can fulfil their potential as we've a daycent record against them recently.  I'd go for Antrim v Cavan (the traditional Ulster Final).  We really should be seeded.

You Antrim boys are some craic. Seems you missed the fact that McGuinnesses Donegal simply don't compare to that of John Joe Doherty when we couldn't buy a win home or away. The Antrim loss in Ballybofey was pretty much the low point of the past 30 odd years of Donegal football. What made it worse than losing to Ulsters minnows was the man that was in charge of ye. Even accepting the fact that we kicked 19 wides that day and went on to reach a Quarter final, it's still an unforgiveable blot on JJ Dohertys copybook. Couldn't see a repeat if you paid me to. Whoever wins Donegal v Derry appears in the Ulster final as underdogs to a team who deserves to win it given what they've been through on the other side of the draw.

I think they may be taking the piss a little here. 

Donegal perspective on the draw J70? Do you expect a battle in the bogside or something similar to the hiding you gave Derry a couple of years ago in Ballybofey!!

I'm telling you what boys, this could be a clinker. How do Donegal react after MayoGate? Hunger there for another rattle? Cant see any retirements. Derry, how are we progessing under Brian and the Paddy posse? Cruciate's a plenty? 1 more year for Paddy B? Good cover in midfield? Big big test for both teams on the easier side of the draw. In Celtic Pk of all places too, who'd have thunk it?!

In terms of retirements, all I've heard so far is that Ryan Bradley has emigrated. Ross Wherity too. Christy Toye is recovered and back in the provisional panel, but he's 30 now. Ciaran Bonner too, but he hasn't played for the county in four or five years and always had disciplinary problems. If his head is right and he's still up to it, he'll improve the team, IMO with his running and score taking. Our half-forward line was poor this year.
Anthony Thompson's brother, Leon, was a promising corner forward for us in 06-07, but got a bad injury. Apparently he's in the new panel too, whether or not he makes it next year.

[rodney trotter]

Wouldn't have to do an open draw just adjust a few provinces which would make sense Geographically. And have an even number.

Then they would be regions not provinces. Or do you envisage a Westmeath v Donegal "Connacht"(sic) Final someday?
I'm sure Carlow and Kilkenny would "love to join " the new Southern Region and still Kerry and Cork would walk to the last 8/12.
Would the sticks crowd then have different regions?
Ráiméis of the highest order as is the nonsense of an "open draw" with no Provincials.
Anyway aren't the Qualifiers a semi open nationwide draw?

No since Kk don't have a football team, Wexford or Laois could be thrown in to make it competitive.
I'm talking about Football, there is a Hurling thread for the "stick crowd"
. A stick crowd play in Leinster Hurling and another from Ulster but that is a different scenario.

You should relax though. Its only a thought.

[Rossfan]

Wouldn't have to do an open draw just adjust a few provinces which would make sense Geographically. And have an even number.

Then they would be regions not provinces. Or do you envisage a Westmeath v Donegal "Connacht"(sic) Final someday?
I'm sure Carlow and Kilkenny would "love to join " the new Southern Region and still Kerry and Cork would walk to the last 8/12.
Would the sticks crowd then have different regions?
Ráiméis of the highest order as is the nonsense of an "open draw" with no Provincials.
Anyway aren't the Qualifiers a semi open nationwide draw?

No since Kk don't have a football team, Wexford or Laois could be thrown in to make it competitive.
I'm talking about Football, there is a Hurling thread for the "stick crowd"
. A stick crowd play in Leinster Hurling and another from Ulster but that is a different scenario.

You should relax though. Its only a thought.

We Connacht folks don't want any lesser breeds polluting our Championshipín.

[J OGorman]

Antrim could defo get to an Ulster final, no real big hitters on our side of the draw, that might bring in a good manager now with a host of players making their way back

Spot on MR2.  First up it's Fermanagh, well they're shite too.  After that Donegal/Derry.  I'd prefer Donegal as we've a win agin them in recent memory (in Bealach Feidh too!) whereas I can only remember a draw agin Derry in 2000.  So the form book says we've a better chance against the Tir Chonaill men.  Then it's the final against whoever comes out of the weak side of the draw. Hopefully Cavan can fulfil their potential as we've a daycent record against them recently.  I'd go for Antrim v Cavan (the traditional Ulster Final).  We really should be seeded.

You Antrim boys are some craic. Seems you missed the fact that McGuinnesses Donegal simply don't compare to that of John Joe Doherty when we couldn't buy a win home or away. The Antrim loss in Ballybofey was pretty much the low point of the past 30 odd years of Donegal football. What made it worse than losing to Ulsters minnows was the man that was in charge of ye. Even accepting the fact that we kicked 19 wides that day and went on to reach a Quarter final, it's still an unforgiveable blot on JJ Dohertys copybook. Couldn't see a repeat if you paid me to. Whoever wins Donegal v Derry appears in the Ulster final as underdogs to a team who deserves to win it given what they've been through on the other side of the draw.

I think they may be taking the piss a little here. 

Donegal perspective on the draw J70? Do you expect a battle in the bogside or something similar to the hiding you gave Derry a couple of years ago in Ballybofey!!

I'm telling you what boys, this could be a clinker. How do Donegal react after MayoGate? Hunger there for another rattle? Cant see any retirements. Derry, how are we progessing under Brian and the Paddy posse? Cruciate's a plenty? 1 more year for Paddy B? Good cover in midfield? Big big test for both teams on the easier side of the draw. In Celtic Pk of all places too, who'd have thunk it?!

In terms of retirements, all I've heard so far is that Ryan Bradley has emigrated. Ross Wherity too. Christy Toye is recovered and back in the provisional panel, but he's 30 now. Ciaran Bonner too, but he hasn't played for the county in four or five years and always had disciplinary problems. If his head is right and he's still up to it, he'll improve the team, IMO with his running and score taking. Our half-forward line was poor this year.
Anthony Thompson's brother, Leon, was a promising corner forward for us in 06-07, but got a bad injury. Apparently he's in the new panel too, whether or not he makes it next year.

Young Bradley off to Perth to meet up with the half of Buncrana?? That town is getting it extremely tight :-(

[Syferus]

Wouldn't have to do an open draw just adjust a few provinces which would make sense Geographically. And have an even number.

Then they would be regions not provinces. Or do you envisage a Westmeath v Donegal "Connacht"(sic) Final someday?
I'm sure Carlow and Kilkenny would "love to join " the new Southern Region and still Kerry and Cork would walk to the last 8/12.
Would the sticks crowd then have different regions?
Ráiméis of the highest order as is the nonsense of an "open draw" with no Provincials.
Anyway aren't the Qualifiers a semi open nationwide draw?

No since Kk don't have a football team, Wexford or Laois could be thrown in to make it competitive.
I'm talking about Football, there is a Hurling thread for the "stick crowd"
. A stick crowd play in Leinster Hurling and another from Ulster but that is a different scenario.

You should relax though. Its only a thought.

We Connacht folks don't want any lesser breeds polluting our Championshipín.

We'd take the Larries and Offaly if we're pushed, though. Lovely lads. Want-to-be Connacht men of the highest order.

[Itchy]

Not a great draw for Cavan but it could have been worse. I think our young lads with another year under our belt and lads like Gearoid McKiernan and Barry Reilly able to come back in that we can be a force again. Tough to beat Armagh away but I console myself by remembering that their players are no better than ours and their manager is a bit clueless. Looking forward to seeing the athletics ground, was never in it before.

[armaghniac]

The Athletics Ground is fine. In the last decade Armagh have a much better pitch and a much worse team.

[Fuzzman]

For years us Ulster folk have been highlighting how much easier it has been for Kerry to win the AI over the years than for us Ulster men. When I heard the talk this year of how the Munster council have made the decision to keep the big two apart I thought this really was unfair not only to the other Munster teams but also to the other provinces as some have much tougher runs of matches which often leads to more injuries which can take their toll on players for later in the year.

2013 Kerry lost in AI Semi final
Kerry 2.19 v Tipp 0.08      
Kerry 2.21 v Waterford 1.04
Kerry 1.16 v Cork 0.17   Munster Final
Kerry 0.15 v Cavan 0.09
Kerry 3.11 v Dublin 3.18

2013 Tyrone lost in AI Semi final
Tyrone 0.10 v Donegal 2.10   AI champs
Tyrone 1.27 v Offaly 0.08
Tyrone 0.12 v Roscommon 1.07
Tyrone 1.12 v Kildare 0.12
Tyrone 0.17 v Meath 2.09   Leinster finalists
Tyrone 0.14 v Monaghan 0.12   Ulster champs

2013 Donegal lost in AI quarter final
Donegal 2.10 v Tyrone 0.10
Donegal 0.12 v Down 0.09
Donegal 0.07 v Monaghan 0.13
Donegal 0.14 v Laois 0.08
Donegal 1.10 v Mayo 4.17


2014 Munster
Kerry v Clare/Waterford   Semi
Kerry v Cork Final
Either a 4th round qualifier or a 1/4 final spot


2014 Possible Tyrone path to Ulster final
Tyrone v Down preliminary Round
Tyrone v Monaghan First round v current Ulster champions 2013
Tyrone v Armagh/Cavan
Tyrone v Donegal/Derry

Last year Kerry played 5 matches to get to the AI semifinal where they almost beat Dublin. With the exception of the annual Cork match they met 3 other teams outside the top 10. They met Cork in the Munster final knowing that even if they lose they'll be into the last round of qualifiers and so would only have to play one more game to get to the same point. With this in mind they can more or less cruise through the championship, choosing to focus their efforts on late July & August. They never have to worry about being primed for a big match at the end of May or June.

On the other hand last year Donegal, reigning AI champs had to be in peak condition for what was expected to be an epic battle v Tyrone in round 1 of Ulster. Having put in such effort to win that game they then looked a little troubled with the challenge Down gave them. Then they had their third tough match in a row against Monaghan in the final which was a bridge to far and they lost their chance for an Ulster 3 in a row. It's a huge challenge to win Ulster 3 years in a row and this is why it's very rarely been achieved. How often have Kerry or Cork won Munster 3 times in a row?
In Ulster its the accumulation of matches that takes its toll on you. Kerry could argue they would have beaten Monaghan in the Ulster final but would ye if ye had been to war with Tyrone & then Down before that match?

Tyrone only played one more game that Kerry last year going down the qualifier route to get to the AI semi but when you consider they played the reigning AI champs in the first round, then the Leinster finalists in round 4 of the qualifiers and then the Ulster champions in the quarterfinals most would agree it was again a much harder route than Kerry's quite facile win over Cork.

Most Kerry (and Cork) people will just pass this off as the luck of the draw or just the way it is but for any fair minded neutral, it really is an unfair playing field. Most of us do just put up with it but I think this decision now to allow Kerry & Cork to be kept apart in the Munster semis is just a step too far. It more or less guarantees them both a place in the Munster final and thus a much shorter passage into the AI series, even for the loser.

Next year either Tyrone or Down will go out at the preliminary round in Ulster and then have to play 4 rounds of qualifiers to get to the AI quarters. Cork or Kerry will have to play 2 or else 3 games to get to the same stage. How can this be a fair competition?

Should Ulster choose their best two teams every few years and seed them the same way to allow them to have a better chance of winning the AI?
Would they be allowed to do this?

Would anyone know what was Kerry's hardest run of games where they got to an AI final?
Wasn't it 2005 that Tyrone played 9 games and beat the Ulster, Leinster, Munster and AI champions all in the one year. We were lucky to avoid Mayo that year oh wait it was Galway in 05.

[blanketattack]

For years us Ulster folk have been highlighting how much easier it has been for Kerry to win the AI over the years than for us Ulster men. When I heard the talk this year of how the Munster council have made the decision to keep the big two apart I thought this really was unfair not only to the other Munster teams but also to the other provinces as some have much tougher runs of matches which often leads to more injuries which can take their toll on players for later in the year.

<SNIP>

Last year Kerry played 5 matches to get to the AI semifinal where they almost beat Dublin. With the exception of the annual Cork match they met 3 other teams outside the top 10. They met Cork in the Munster final knowing that even if they lose they'll be into the last round of qualifiers and so would only have to play one more game to get to the same point. With this in mind they can more or less cruise through the championship, choosing to focus their efforts on late July & August. They never have to worry about being primed for a big match at the end of May or June.

On the other hand last year Donegal, reigning AI champs had to be in peak condition for what was expected to be an epic battle v Tyrone in round 1 of Ulster. Having put in such effort to win that game they then looked a little troubled with the challenge Down gave them. Then they had their third tough match in a row against Monaghan in the final which was a bridge to far and they lost their chance for an Ulster 3 in a row. It's a huge challenge to win Ulster 3 years in a row and this is why it's very rarely been achieved. How often have Kerry or Cork won Munster 3 times in a row?
In Ulster its the accumulation of matches that takes its toll on you. Kerry could argue they would have beaten Monaghan in the Ulster final but would ye if ye had been to war with Tyrone & then Down before that match?

Tyrone only played one more game that Kerry last year going down the qualifier route to get to the AI semi but when you consider they played the reigning AI champs in the first round, then the Leinster finalists in round 4 of the qualifiers and then the Ulster champions in the quarterfinals most would agree it was again a much harder route than Kerry's quite facile win over Cork.

Most Kerry (and Cork) people will just pass this off as the luck of the draw or just the way it is but for any fair minded neutral, it really is an unfair playing field. Most of us do just put up with it but I think this decision now to allow Kerry & Cork to be kept apart in the Munster semis is just a step too far. It more or less guarantees them both a place in the Munster final and thus a much shorter passage into the AI series, even for the loser.

Next year either Tyrone or Down will go out at the preliminary round in Ulster and then have to play 4 rounds of qualifiers to get to the AI quarters. Cork or Kerry will have to play 2 or else 3 games to get to the same stage. How can this be a fair competition?

Should Ulster choose their best two teams every few years and seed them the same way to allow them to have a better chance of winning the AI?
Would they be allowed to do this?

Would anyone know what was Kerry's hardest run of games where they got to an AI final?
Wasn't it 2005 that Tyrone played 9 games and beat the Ulster, Leinster, Munster and AI champions all in the one year. We were lucky to avoid Mayo that year oh wait it was Galway in 05.

Ok, so if Kerry were in Ulster they might have had a few more trips through the qualifiers, but Kerry have a 100% record in the qualifiers anyway.
Kerry's biggest trek through the qualifiers was in '09 when they won the All-Ireland.

[Hound]

Next year either Tyrone or Down will go out at the preliminary round in Ulster and then have to play 4 rounds of qualifiers to get to the AI quarters. Cork or Kerry will have to play 2 or else 3 games to get to the same stage. How can this be a fair competition?

Should Ulster choose their best two teams every few years and seed them the same way to allow them to have a better chance of winning the AI?
Would they be allowed to do this?

I honestly don't believe the stage you enter the qualifiers matters a jot. Winning games helps to build momentum. Luck of the draw comes into it of course, no matter what stage you enter. The earlier you enter the better the chance of a handy draw.

Kerry and Cork being seeded in Munster doesn't help them one iota in my view. The stats would back this up. Cork and Kerry have met 12 times in Munster since the back door, 7 times in the final, 5 times in an earlier round.

The backdoor performance by the loser has been slightly better when losing in an early round, 3 times (out of 5) making the AI final and winning it twice.
The loser in a Munster final has got to the AI final 3 times (out of 7) winning it once.

In the 13 years of the backdoor system there have been 7 Cork-Kerry Munster finals, and only once has the winner gone on to win the All Ireland (Kerry in 2007).

So seeding absolutely doesnt help them win All Irelands (I'm not saying it hinders them either, just makes very little difference)