Time for Joe to go??

[HiMucker]

If everyone is doing it, does it make right?

The fact is if it was the first minute or the last minute cavanagh would have done the exact same thing; even if it was punishable by red. Thats the mindset that has to be changed. If ye were a coach could ye look at a 14 year old in the eye after he pulled a wee lad down going in on goal? I feckin guarantee ye that ye might be happy inside but would ye let it known in public by shouting 'Well done Mickey, good man ye boy ye!' in front of all the parents and other coaches. What ye would all do is turn away, head down with a wry smile and say under yer breath ' feck mickey, happy days ya wee cert ye'  .Ye would he embarrassed to let everyone know of how people potray ye.

i don't know what point you are trying to make. If its that not everyone is honest and plays to the letter of the rules then I agree with you.  That's why we have refs.  If those rules are not a deterrent to particular fouls then they need looked at.  if Sean cav knew he would have received a straight red I don't think he would have done it, and if it had Been in the first minute of the game and that was the punishment he def wouldn't have done it.  I would agree with others that the black card would have been of no deterrent whatsoever

[theticklemister]

That second piece was what I think a lot of people who support such ongoing fouling  would stand if they were an underage coach.

A black card is a great idea in principle but as people have said it would not have stopped Cavanagh or other people doing what they have done or doing at present. It might cause havoc at club level though.It is a step in the right direction however and must be given a chance. Cavanaghs tackle was done as a split second decision however and if it is engrained in people's mindsets as it seems to be, it will take a while to remove it .

[AZOffaly]

That second piece was what I think a lot of people who support such ongoing fouling  would stand if they were an underage coach.

A black card is a great idea in priciple but as people have said it would not have stopped Cavanagh or other people doing what they have done or doing at present. It might cause havoc at club level though.It is a step in the right direction however and must be given a chance. Cavanaghs tackle was done as a split second decision however andbif it is engrained in people's mindsets it will take a wile to remove it .

And has ALWAYS been engrained in people's mindset as long as I've been playing or involved. "Bring Him Down" has been roared many, many times over the years in similar situations. I've had it done to myself many times. They'd have been better off letting me shoot.

[Mike Sheehy]

Lets be very clear when we say "everybody is doing it" , there is a distinction to be made between those who proactively ramp up the cynicism and those who reactively respond to increased cynicism. I dont care what anybody says,the likes of Tyrone and Donegal are far more culpable than the likes of Kerry or Mayo for the level of cynicism in the game.

Brolly may be going over the top in personalizing it. On the other hand its good that somebody in Ulster finally has the balls to call out Mickey Harte. Its a pity Brolly waited till the damage was done.

Make no mistake, It is ethically correct to use the "lance Armstrong" approach to fixing the sport i.e to go after the main perpetrators first. Make some attempt to establish a level playing field for those whose main priority, god forbid, is to actually play Gaelic football.

I knew you'd be in Mike I don't know if you saw on the other thread, but I did a bit of watching back on the two games to see which teams were committing the most 'Black Card' fouls, as awarded by the ref (not in my opinion of what was a foul or not). When the ref gave a free, or took retrospective action, I looked at the incident and measured it against the new definition of 'cynical fouls'.

Tyrone committed 8 such fouls, including Cavanagh's, and including a trip by Clarke on a Monaghan man when Tyrone had the ball.
Kerry were next up, with 7, 5 of which occured in the second half including a harsh one on Galvin.
Monaghan were next with 6
Cavan were last with 3, 2 of which came in the last 5 minutes or so and were frustration fouls as opposed to momentum breaker.

As I pointed out, there were a further 11 instances (6 Kerry, 5 Cavan) in that game of what I would term cynical fouls but would not merit a black card because the player never hit the deck. The drag backs and bear hugging.

I'm a great fan of Kerry football, as you know, and as the Tyronies never tire of telling me when I'm standing up for Dromid or whoever, but one thing about Kerry is that they are never slow in learning from and adapting tactics that others have used to beat them in the past. This Kerry team is as adept at employing the cynical momentum breaker as any team in Ireland, Tyrone included.

Yes, and why does everybody seem to ignore this crucial fact ? We adapt. How culpable are we though ?

If somebody burgles your home twice and the third time they do it you go over and steal back what they have stolen...how culpable are you exactly ?

Is there anyone on this board that can honestly say that the more cynicism there is in the game the more its suits the likes of Kerry ? ...or Mayo ?..(who have obviously said "f**k this nice guy shit" ......and who can blame them ?)

Everybody knows the opposite is true. We would do much better in a cleaner, less cynical game.

[The Biff]

While I feel Joe went a little too far by personalising his criticism of Sean Cavanagh, I do agree with his main point.  Such cynical fouling is NOT within the rules of the game.  The problem is the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent to the offence.  The Black Card may or should become a better deterrent, but only if Referees are instructed to apply it throughout the field of play, and early in the game too.  The Black Card=>"Sent Off" impact will only be truly felt when a team has run out of replacement options.

Then the real test will come when some aggrieved county lodges an appeal to a ref's black card show.  Will the CCCC or whichever Appeals Committee applies have the gumption to stand behind the ref and back him.  That I am much less sure of.

[AZOffaly]

I think I actually believe this. I do think Kerry would prefer everyone to set up 15 v 15 and go at it like the bejaysus, but it's also equally untrue to say that 'Kerry wouldn't do that sort of thing', which you also here.

They might prefer the more open way, but are happy enough to do whatever it takes, and I don't think that should be news to anyone really. All good sides have that element to them. Adapt or die.

[AZOffaly]

While I feel Joe went a little too far by personalising his criticism of Sean Cavanagh, I do agree with his main point.  Such cynical fouling is NOT within the rules of the game.  The problem is the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent to the offence.  The Black Card may or should become a better deterrent, but only if Referees are instructed to apply it throughout the field of play, and early in the game too.  The Black Card=>"Sent Off" impact will only be truly felt when a team has run out of replacement options.

Then the real test will come when some aggrieved county lodges an appeal to a ref's black card show.  Will the CCCC or whichever Appeals Committee applies have the gumption to stand behind the ref and back him.  That I am much less sure of.

I don't think ANYONE has said it is within the rules of the game to pull a lad down. I certainly haven;t said it.

What I've said a couple of times is that

a) Sean Cavanagh is not the first, and pretty fecking far from the only, player that has done this or would do this.
b) It has happened in every era.
c) Focussing on this particular example actually takes away from the really insidious negative shite that happens out the field.

By Brolly somehow insinuating that THIS type of last ditch fouling is somehow unique to Tyrone, Sean Cavanagh or recent years is frankly bullshit. In fact in his own video there are similar tackles from Galway and Armagh defenders.

But the crusade should be against the other fouls. The push me pull you fouls, the drag backs, the fouls designed to kill momentum, stop the game, allow defensive systems to be set up. That's what I hope the black card goes after, not some lad making a last ditch desperation lunge to prevent a goal. That's always been there and I think will always remain.

And I've also said on another thread, I think, that I would have no problem if what Cavanagh did specifically (i.e. deny a clear goalscoring opportunity) was an automatic red card.  However that's not the case at the moment, and it's crazy to castigate Cavanagh for something that 'should' be in the rule book.

[Dinny Breen]

It's funny to see the media eulogise Roscommon's minor victory yesterday and praise them for closing out the game. They did this by packing their defence and cynically fouling. Ironically the sending off was for 2 yellows, he gave the 2nd yellow for a rugby tackle but it was very harsh, it was just an awkward attempt at playing the ball from behind. Wonder was Brolly's comments in the ref's head?

BTW it was all within the framework of the rules and I have no issue with it but just disappointed to see it at minor level.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Yes, and why does everybody seem to ignore this crucial fact ? We adapt. How culpable are we though ?

Here's an innocent, holier-than-thou, little piece of adaptation, eh?
(And never mind that Murphy might well have been seriously injured as a result thereof!)

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/kennelly-admits-final-marker-was-premeditated-26574621.html

[AZOffaly]

Yes, and why does everybody seem to ignore this crucial fact ? We adapt. How culpable are we though ?

Here's an innocent, holier-than-thou, little piece of adaptation, eh?
(And never mind that Murhpy might well have been seriously injured as a result thereof!)

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/kennelly-admits-final-marker-was-premeditated-26574621.html

That's a different type of incident again Fear. That was straight out of the 1980s

[Wee Roddy]

Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.

[omagh_gael]

Walter, Guarantee it was Brolly. Watched the highlights earlier.

[Dinny Breen]

Walter, Guarantee it was Brolly. Watched the highlights earlier.

That game was riddled with cynical fouls, this a better example.

The Dubs Ciaran Walsh hauls down Seamus Downey through on goals

[Stall the Bailer]

Has there been a bigger frenzy about a player committing a yellow card offence and getting the yellow card?

There were many worse fouls over the weekend that was not highlighted.
For example, we heard little about;
A Donegal player stamping on a player
A Tyrone player picking up season ending injury.
Two other players being sent off in the same Tyrone – Monaghan game.
There was also no comment on similar fouls in other games.

And little talk about other big stories like, the All Ireland champions being defeated comprehensively.

It seems there is a lot of sheep out there who hang on every word from Joe.
He orchestrates and all his sheep, they bleat and bleat even louder if it is Tyrone.

All over a yellow card offence.
What will Brolly do if Sean commits a red card offence?

GAAboard meltdown...?

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Walter, Guarantee it was Brolly. Watched the highlights earlier.

There's an incident Joe is running through and just gets a shove in the back at 2:10mins in