Time for Joe to go??

[BennyHarp]

I consider myself a bit of a purist. I love free flowing football. I love nice flowing moves with kick and hand pass, and I love great scoring. I also appreciate blocking, near hand tackling, a good shoulder etc etc. In all my years playing football I was never even booked.

Now if I found myself back there I'd probably have a nosebleed first, but would I have dragged down McManus in that situation? Absolutely. Would I deserve a red? Probably. Would I still do it in the same situation? Yes.

That's pretty much how I feel about too! I'm getting a bit worried that I'm beginning to agree with most of your posts AZ!

[Hound]

The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.

I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.

Given there was still a fair bit of time left, do you really think SeanC would have done the rugby tackle if he knew he'd get a red card and thus also miss any semi final?

Under the current rules, a trip or pull down of an opponent is a yellow card. But if the player's foulplay crosses the line (so to speak) and turns into "to behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent" then its a straight red. Cav's tackle wasn't very far from that line. If the ref have thought it dangerous play and given a straight red card, then the fallout would have been interesting.

[rodney trotter]

Roy Keane in a champions league semi final lifted a boy into the air and got a 2nd yellow card and missed the champions league final.


He knew what he was at and was happy to take his medicine for the sake of the team.


If next year Sean Cavanagh finds himself in the same situation, he'll do the very same thing.

What will Joe we have to cry about then ?

Roy keane was attempting to win the ball after a poor pass from Jesper Blomqvist. It  also happened in the centre of the pitch. It was a late tackle, but he was gong for the ball. It wasn't about to decide a goal being scored.

[omagh_gael]

In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind.  Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.

[AZOffaly]

I think he would Hound. We see it a lot in other codes. If Cavanagh felt he needed to do it, he would do it. The team comes first. Having said that, I'm sure the red card would factor into his thinking in some way, but again it's slightly tangential because as it stands it wasn't a red, and every player in Ireland (with a few noble exceptions) would have done the same thing. The thing about this incident is that it's almost instinctive in that situation. The one out the field is much more calculated. I wish Brolly highlighted that there 14 instances of deliberate black card type fouls in the game, or that Kerry had 7 of them in a comfortable win v Cavan (not to mention another 6 with I believe should be black card eligible as well).

If Brolly did his nut and focussed on lads like Peter Harte's tackle, or Duffy's from Monaghan, and said 'this is what we need to cut out' then he'd be right, because those fouls ARE much more prevelant today. Cavanagh's thing could have happened in any era at any level.

[AZOffaly]

In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind.  Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.

Did he have a pint with him afterwards?

[omagh_gael]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_EjyFFb9u0&feature=youtube_gdata_playerquote author=AZOffaly link=topic=23552.msg1262068#msg1262068 date=1375791684]

In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind.  Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.

Did he have a pint with him afterwards?
[/quote]

Na Joe was tee total. Tyrone circa 2012/13 drove Joe to drink.

You'll find said incident on YouTube. Derry Dublin 1993 GAA will take you there.

[Mike Sheehy]

Lets be very clear when we say "everybody is doing it" , there is a distinction to be made between those who proactively ramp up the cynicism and those who reactively respond to increased cynicism. I dont care what anybody says,the likes of Tyrone and Donegal are far more culpable than the likes of Kerry or Mayo for the level of cynicism in the game.

Brolly may be going over the top in personalizing it. On the other hand its good that somebody in Ulster finally has the balls to call out Mickey Harte. Its a pity Brolly waited till the damage was done.

Make no mistake, It is ethically correct to use the "lance Armstrong" approach to fixing the sport i.e to go after the main perpetrators first. Make some attempt to establish a level playing field for those whose main priority, god forbid, is to actually play Gaelic football.

[orangeman]

So Joe knows something we don't ? He's been talking to the men at the top since Saturday.


Colm Keys– 06 August 2013

TYRONE do not intend to take up Joe Brolly's scathing criticism of Sean Cavanagh on 'The Saturday Game' with RTE chiefs.




The Tyrone County Board have not had a relationship with the national broadcaster for the last two years over issues that relate to manager Mickey Harte.

Brolly delivered a stinging rebuke of Cavanagh over his deliberate pulling down of Monaghan attacker Conor McManus, preventing a clear goal chance at a critical time in Tyrone's All-Ireland quarter-final victory.

But Tyrone have no intention of registering a complaint directly to RTE over the personalised nature of the criticism of Cavanagh.

Brolly appeared to qualify one of his remarks about Cavanagh in an interview with BBC Radio Ulster yesterday afternoon.

He had declared on RTE on Saturday night that "you can forget about Sean Cavanagh as far as he is a man" after executing the tackle.

But on BBC radio, he suggested it was as "a man on the field" he was referencing. "I hate that. That is not a sportsman and that is not how a sportsman conducts himself," he said.

Brolly accepted that Tyrone supporters had a right to be critical of what he said about both Cavanagh and Harte.

"Tyrone ones are saying, 'look, we support our team. We resent what you said about Sean Cavanagh and Mickey Harte.' They are quite right to say that. But they do accept the principle that the rules have to be changed," he added.

Brolly also claims that he has been speaking to the GAA's 'powers that be' since Saturday and that further rule change will be expedited.

"All of the proposals that were suggested by the Rules Committee (FRC), what is going to happen at the next review, I have no doubt because I was speaking to the powers that be yesterday, they will all be introduced. The public are ready for it," said Brolly.

"I didn't appreciate it was going to have so much impact but I am delighted it has. What's going to happen now is the rule makers are going to have the wind at their back. Nobody is going to stand up and say, 'look, we don't need these rules'."

[Walter Cronc]

So Joe knows something we don't ? He's been talking to the men at the top since Saturday.


Colm Keys– 06 August 2013

TYRONE do not intend to take up Joe Brolly's scathing criticism of Sean Cavanagh on 'The Saturday Game' with RTE chiefs.




The Tyrone County Board have not had a relationship with the national broadcaster for the last two years over issues that relate to manager Mickey Harte.

Brolly delivered a stinging rebuke of Cavanagh over his deliberate pulling down of Monaghan attacker Conor McManus, preventing a clear goal chance at a critical time in Tyrone's All-Ireland quarter-final victory.

But Tyrone have no intention of registering a complaint directly to RTE over the personalised nature of the criticism of Cavanagh.

Brolly appeared to qualify one of his remarks about Cavanagh in an interview with BBC Radio Ulster yesterday afternoon.

He had declared on RTE on Saturday night that "you can forget about Sean Cavanagh as far as he is a man" after executing the tackle.

But on BBC radio, he suggested it was as "a man on the field" he was referencing. "I hate that. That is not a sportsman and that is not how a sportsman conducts himself," he said.

Brolly accepted that Tyrone supporters had a right to be critical of what he said about both Cavanagh and Harte.

"Tyrone ones are saying, 'look, we support our team. We resent what you said about Sean Cavanagh and Mickey Harte.' They are quite right to say that. But they do accept the principle that the rules have to be changed," he added.

Brolly also claims that he has been speaking to the GAA's 'powers that be' since Saturday and that further rule change will be expedited.

"All of the proposals that were suggested by the Rules Committee (FRC), what is going to happen at the next review, I have no doubt because I was speaking to the powers that be yesterday, they will all be introduced. The public are ready for it," said Brolly.

"I didn't appreciate it was going to have so much impact but I am delighted it has. What's going to happen now is the rule makers are going to have the wind at their back. Nobody is going to stand up and say, 'look, we don't need these rules'."

Perhaps some of the powers that be have told him to speak his mind!!

[AZOffaly]

Lets be very clear when we say "everybody is doing it" , there is a distinction to be made between those who proactively ramp up the cynicism and those who reactively respond to increased cynicism. I dont care what anybody says,the likes of Tyrone and Donegal are far more culpable than the likes of Kerry or Mayo for the level of cynicism in the game.

Brolly may be going over the top in personalizing it. On the other hand its good that somebody in Ulster finally has the balls to call out Mickey Harte. Its a pity Brolly waited till the damage was done.

Make no mistake, It is ethically correct to use the "lance Armstrong" approach to fixing the sport i.e to go after the main perpetrators first. Make some attempt to establish a level playing field for those whose main priority, god forbid, is to actually play Gaelic football.

I knew you'd be in Mike I don't know if you saw on the other thread, but I did a bit of watching back on the two games to see which teams were committing the most 'Black Card' fouls, as awarded by the ref (not in my opinion of what was a foul or not). When the ref gave a free, or took retrospective action, I looked at the incident and measured it against the new definition of 'cynical fouls'.

Tyrone committed 8 such fouls, including Cavanagh's, and including a trip by Clarke on a Monaghan man when Tyrone had the ball.
Kerry were next up, with 7, 5 of which occured in the second half including a harsh one on Galvin.
Monaghan were next with 6
Cavan were last with 3, 2 of which came in the last 5 minutes or so and were frustration fouls as opposed to momentum breaker.

As I pointed out, there were a further 11 instances (6 Kerry, 5 Cavan) in that game of what I would term cynical fouls but would not merit a black card because the player never hit the deck. The drag backs and bear hugging.

I'm a great fan of Kerry football, as you know, and as the Tyronies never tire of telling me when I'm standing up for Dromid or whoever, but one thing about Kerry is that they are never slow in learning from and adapting tactics that others have used to beat them in the past. This Kerry team is as adept at employing the cynical momentum breaker as any team in Ireland, Tyrone included.

[Walter Cronc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_EjyFFb9u0&feature=youtube_gdata_playerquote author=AZOffaly link=topic=23552.msg1262068#msg1262068 date=1375791684]

In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind.  Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.

Did he have a pint with him afterwards?

Na Joe was tee total. Tyrone circa 2012/13 drove Joe to drink.

You'll find said incident on YouTube. Derry Dublin 1993 GAA will take you there.
[/quote]

You sure it wasnt Seamus Downey who was hauled down. I get your point though!

[theticklemister]

If everyone is doing it, does it make right?

The fact is if it was the first minute or the last minute cavanagh would have done the exact same thing; even if it was punishable by red. Thats the mindset that has to be changed. If ye were a coach could ye look at a 14 year old in the eye after he pulled a wee lad down going in on goal? I feckin guarantee ye that ye might be happy inside but would ye let it known in public by shouting 'Well done Mickey, good man ye boy ye!' in front of all the parents and other coaches. What ye would all do is turn away, head down with a wry smile and say under yer breath ' feck mickey, happy days ya wee cert ye'  .Ye would he embarrassed to let everyone know of how people potray ye.

[blewuporstuffed]

Excellent article by Paddy Heaney today in the Irish News if any off you know how to put up a screengrab of the online version or anything like that?

just read it there.
at last someone in the media providing a bit of balance

[AZOffaly]

If everyone is doing it, does it make right?

The fact is if it was the first minute or the last minute cavanagh would have done the exact same thing; even if it was punishable by red. Thats the mindset that has to be changed. If ye were a coach could ye look at a 14 year old in the eye after he pulled a wee lad down going in on goal? I feckin guarantee ye that ye might be happy inside but would ye let it known in public by shouting 'Well done Mickey, good man ye boy ye!' in front of all the parents and other coaches. What ye would all do is turn away, head down with a wry smile and say under yer breath ' feck mickey, happy days ya wee cert ye'  .Ye would he embarrassed to let everyone know of how people potray ye.

No, it just means everyone is doing it, and to single out Cavanagh as if he had done something nobody else would do, or has done in the past, was ridiculous.

I'm also confused by your second comment. You seem to imply that you'd be happy the lad did it, but be afraid to praise him for it.

For myself, I'd be giving out that we allowed the situation to develop, and I'd certainly not castigate the young lad for it or 'Never give him a jersey again' as Brolly said.