Has the Back door become Redundant?

[Rossfan]

.

It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out,.

That is where it fell down when first mooted.
Also a lot of meaningless games and you're still in the Provincial strait jacket.

[muppet]

.

It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out,.

That is where it fell down when first mooted.
Also a lot of meaningless games and you're still in the Provincial strait jacket.

You could get relegated, so not quite that meaningless.

[AZOffaly]

What are the objectives people want from a new system and in what order of priority?

Reading the thread we seem to want:

* more games;
* meaningful games;
* tradition respected, e.g provincial finals;
* a greater spread of winners;
* a proper schedule of regular games;
* a meaningful second competition;
* improvement from weaker teams;
* more that I have missed;

Some of the solutions don't really address a lot of the above issues.

I have said it many times before but I like the proposal from over ten years ago from a committee which included O'Rourke and Martin Carney.

3 divisions.

Div 1a top 11 teams from Ulster/Connacht
Div 1b top 11 teams from Leinster/Munster
Div 2 the rest with promotion to Div 1a & 1b.

Each division plays every team once on a biannual home/away basis. The top 2 teams from each province within the Div 1s  play provincial finals, followed by an AIS and an AIF.

It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out, but it would give regular meaningful games, a proper championship season with a minimum of 10 games for each team and relegation would be a real threat to keep things interesting.

That's actually a good point muppet. I think the sense is there that there is something 'wrong', but nobody seems to have come up with the definition of the problem. Without consensus on that, it would be very hard to define a solution that will properly address what ails the championships (if anything).

As I see it, the problems are

- National League is undervalued and under appreciated by the general public, and by the more successful counties.
- Huge levels of preparation and expense are required to operate at the top level, and the gap is widening between those who are operating at this level, and those who are unwilling (or more likely unable) to match that sort of outlay.
- As a result of the second issue, the All Ireland championship is largely a series of minor skirmishes until August, when the last 8 start in earnest. In most cases, the last 8 is made up of at least 5 or 6 who were in the last 8 last year, and can be predicted at the start of this year.
- In turn, this makes many of the games academic at best.

Now, whether these are new problems or not is a moot point.
- The National League was always undervalued, certainly in the last 30 years or so.
- The preparation difference is relatively new I think. Some of the differences in physique and fitness between teams of nominally the same level is unbelievable.
- I do believe the back door has removed intensity of the provincial championships, and I believe it was brought in to benefit the strong counties who might get caught on the hop, not to give weaker teams a second day out as mooted. The early days of the old straight knock out brought intensity and allowed teams to dream of shocks, while knowing if they lost they were out. Of course you still had blow outs, but if Dublin were caught by Laois down in Portlaoise, it had huge ramifications for the championship. Now it's a shrug of the shoulders and on to the qualifiers for Dublin. If the underdog loses, they don't really benefit too much from the back door because it's postponing the inevitable. Granted some teams have used the back door to gird their loins and go on great runs like Sligo, Fermanagh etc etc, but in general the players and the fans are not as fired up as they might be to see how far they can get. A 2nd round win followed by a third round loss is not the stuff that gets people excited.

So, solutions to the above?
-Link the league to the championship. Make the fans and the teams understand that there is a direct link to their chances of summer success depending on how far they get.
- The Preparation one, I have no idea. Unless some form of 'preparation cap' is implemented I don't see how you can stop better resourced counties preparing better. Science and proper preparation costs money, and some counties just can't or won't spend that sort of money.
- Could we link the championship draw to league form, but continue a provincial system?
If we rank the teams from 1 to 32 based on their league standing, and then within each province have a straight knockout based on where they finished in the league.
No backdoor, qualifiers or any other second chances.

If we said the top seeds get byes until the bottom seeds qualify to meet them, you could end up as follows.

Leinster
Dublin #1, Kildare #2;Westmeath #3, Laois #4, Louth #5, Wexford #6, Longford #7; Meath #8, Wicklow #9; Offaly #10, Carlow #11.

Quarter Finals.
Carlow versus Louth, winner to play Laois.
Offaly versus Wexford, winner to play Westmeath;
Wicklow versus Longford, winner to play Kildare;
Meath versus Dublin!!

[Zulu]

Format has never been the main problem, it's been schedule and coaching. You can't hope to change the schedule at senior without re-thinking everything else on the calender too because just about every other grade serves senior when it comes to the master planner for the year. It has to be holistic. Even tightening up the calendar we have today would greatly increase its efficiency but we'd then have to figure out how to use that extra time to improve schedules at other levels.

I agree but the first step is putting a definitive structure to every IC competition and preventing players represent numerous IC teams. Do that and you have some hope, don't and everything else is irrelevant. Look at this as a season and not as 'fixing' the championship.

Zulu, Maybe I'm not understanding your proposal, but it seems like your criteria for meaningful games is a well matched game in the championship, and that each game in the league which would 'seed' the teams would by definition be meaningful because it will determine seed.

Not really AZ. The foundation of my proposal is definite structure. I want this so that an Offaly footballer and hurler at minor, U21 and senior can be handed a booklet with their fixtures at the start of the year. The Offaly CB can then do the same for club players in the county, this IMO is a huge advantage of my proposal and any other one that has the same structure. My structure also frees up large parts of the summer for club games.

I would argue that while the players and mentors might well set themselves goals of getting into division 3, and earning a #3 seed, there would be very little buzz, or excitement about that as a target for the year from the GAA public. As I said, jockeying for position in an endless cycle of division 2,3 and 4 for the right to be knocked out by a top seed is not a very appetising or enthusing prospect, so therefore in my mind, as far as the public (who are the ones that make a championship great or otherwise) are concerned, you'd probably have a whole pile of games being played, but at the end of it it's still the top 4 or 5 that will be winning the All Ireland.

But that's how it is now and how it should be in any format. Any competition should be structured to allow the cream rise to the top but my format gives everyone something to aim for and a pathway to improve. At the same time it still allows for shocks and the possibility that a team that had a poor league could still have a great championship.

I might be wrong, but you've said numerous times that you want to see the real best teams slugging it out for Sam. You're not a fan of the romantic upset, because it dilutes the quality of the final stages.

That's not the case and apologise if it came across like that but I do want the best teams playing each other more often in meaningful games and I think my format still gives the chance of lesser lights having a good run. For example, Cavan, in my format would have played a division 2 side in the first round of the championship and if they got over that they would be in the last 16. Now they would probably have to beat a team much stronger than themselves here but if they got a surprise victory her they'd be in the last 8 and Cavan would be going football crazy.

I don't care who wins the All Irelands every year or if it's dominated by some teams, that's sport and that's they way elite sport should be run. What I want is the best teams going at it more often, a road map for weaker teams to improve and more exposure for our games. Kilkenny we're told are possibly the greatest hurling team ever, well how often have we seen them play genuinely competitive games over the past decade (not close games, just games they had to win against another top team)?

I really enjoy the league every year in all divisions and both codes but if the best players were playing it would be really something IMO. It annoys the hell out of me when Marty asks some 'expert' was it a good championship, thats rubbish IMO. You never hear that being asked of a premier league pundit or Heineken cup pundit and why? One of the reasons is that there are a huge amount of games in those competitions and it should be the same for the GAA. We should be looking forward to numerous games each weekend and a season that builds to a crescendo but instead we have a fractured season. Look at Dublin, they played Westmeath and have to wait 5 weeks for their next game, ManU wouldn't be the worlds richest club if they had that carry on yet we have the biggest Irish sports team in action a handful of times a year.

I can't understand people not wanting more games especially when you can do that and get more time for the clubs.

[Lar Naparka]

Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.

In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.

I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that. I think your end game could be achieved by simply linking the counties to their league positions, and then running off a tiered championship. I wouldn't be in favour of this because it is removing the provincial championships (and the provincial championships are still dear to me anyway).

However, this is how I think something like that would work out.

League Tables 2013. -> All Ireland Series Draw.,

Division 1 teams & Division 2 Teams = Sam Maguire

Division 3 teams & Division 4 teams = Tommy Murphy or Intermediate or whatever.

4 groups of 4 in each.
Top 8 teams make 1/4 finals

If this was run in 2013, it would have panned out like this...

Sam Maguire Group A
Dublin (Div 1 First)
Cork (Div 1 Fifth)
Derry (DIv 2 First)
Galway (Div 2 Fifth)

Sam Maguire Group B
Tyrone (Div 1 Second)
Kerry (Div 1 Sixth)
Westmeath (Div 2 Second)
Armagh (Div 2 Sixth)

Sam Maguire Group C
Kildare (Div 1 Third)
Donegal (Div 1 Seventh)
Laois (Div 2 Third)
Wexford (Div 2 Seventh)

Sam Maguire Group D
Mayo (Div 1 Fourth)
Down (Div 1 Eighth)
Louth (Div 2 Fourth)
Longford (Div 2 Eighth)

Tommy Murphy Group A
Monaghan
Cavan
Limerick
Leitrim

Tommy Murphy Group B
Meath
Sligo
Offaly
Waterford

Tommy Murphy Group C
Roscommon
Antrim
Tipperary
Carlow

Tommy Murphy Group D
Fermanagh
Wicklow
Clare
London

Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. 
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
The Centenary was a genuine attempt to see if people were interested in an open draw, all Ireland competition. They weren't and the experiment was scrapped after two years. That was in 1984/85 and I don't think public opinion has changed much since then.
In the interim, the back door has been opened and the Tommy Murphy came along.
Poor Tommy lasted only four years and I don't recall any county objecting when that competition was scrapped.
The qualifier system is motoring along but I honestly believe that's only because the provincial structure remains in place.  I think it has outlived its usefulness but the general public seem to think otherwise.
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.

[DJGaliv]

Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. 
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
....
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.

"For the first All-Ireland championship in 1887, the competition was played on an open draw knockout basis".

Old traditions

[Rossfan]

Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. 
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
....
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.

"For the first All-Ireland championship in 1887, the competition was played on an open draw knockout basis".

Old traditions

But how many Counties took part ? 10 or 12??

[Fuzzman]

I suppose we all want different things as we've got different backgrounds and ideas of the GAA.
I would be delighted to see more big games for Tyrone in Croke park every year and think the back door has served us well the last 10 years.
However, many others from my county are fed up with the county team dictating how their club football is being ruined every year and would hate to see more games.

Loads of young lads in county panels can't wait to get away to America and away from the dreary Irish economy and lifestyle and so would be glad to see the back of the back door as well.

We're never going to get something to please all of us so I can't see much changing in the foreseeable future.

[johnneycool]

Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. 
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
....
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.

"For the first All-Ireland championship in 1887, the competition was played on an open draw knockout basis".

Old traditions

But how many Counties took part ? 10 or 12??

It was the club champions who represented a county back then.

[AZOffaly]

Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.

In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.

I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that. I think your end game could be achieved by simply linking the counties to their league positions, and then running off a tiered championship. I wouldn't be in favour of this because it is removing the provincial championships (and the provincial championships are still dear to me anyway).

However, this is how I think something like that would work out.

League Tables 2013. -> All Ireland Series Draw.,

Division 1 teams & Division 2 Teams = Sam Maguire

Division 3 teams & Division 4 teams = Tommy Murphy or Intermediate or whatever.

4 groups of 4 in each.
Top 8 teams make 1/4 finals

If this was run in 2013, it would have panned out like this...

Sam Maguire Group A
Dublin (Div 1 First)
Cork (Div 1 Fifth)
Derry (DIv 2 First)
Galway (Div 2 Fifth)

Sam Maguire Group B
Tyrone (Div 1 Second)
Kerry (Div 1 Sixth)
Westmeath (Div 2 Second)
Armagh (Div 2 Sixth)

Sam Maguire Group C
Kildare (Div 1 Third)
Donegal (Div 1 Seventh)
Laois (Div 2 Third)
Wexford (Div 2 Seventh)

Sam Maguire Group D
Mayo (Div 1 Fourth)
Down (Div 1 Eighth)
Louth (Div 2 Fourth)
Longford (Div 2 Eighth)

Tommy Murphy Group A
Monaghan
Cavan
Limerick
Leitrim

Tommy Murphy Group B
Meath
Sligo
Offaly
Waterford

Tommy Murphy Group C
Roscommon
Antrim
Tipperary
Carlow

Tommy Murphy Group D
Fermanagh
Wicklow
Clare
London

Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. 
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
The Centenary was a genuine attempt to see if people were interested in an open draw, all Ireland competition. They weren't and the experiment was scrapped after two years. That was in 1984/85 and I don't think public opinion has changed much since then.
In the interim, the back door has been opened and the Tommy Murphy came along.
Poor Tommy lasted only four years and I don't recall any county objecting when that competition was scrapped.
The qualifier system is motoring along but I honestly believe that's only because the provincial structure remains in place.  I think it has outlived its usefulness but the general public seem to think otherwise.
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.

Lar, the reason the centenary cup didn't persist was because it was a contrived competition, running in parallel with the All Ireland and Provincial Championships, which all the teams competed in as well. It wasn't REPLACING the All Ireland, it was yet another competition. Having said that I do remember the competition clearly, so it obviously made *some* impact on the consciousness.

I don't think a failed tertiary competitions 29 years ago is a reason to discount similar competitions today, particularly if they are replacing elements of our All Ireland, rather than competing with it.

[Rossfan]

Any new or reorganised system for the Senior IC Championship(s) will have to be part of an overall reform package of structures/competitions/calendars and enable Club Championships and Inter County to be progressed together during the high Summer months May to August inclusive.
Ideally every County should be sure of 3 or 4 Championship games 1 May - 31 July and then the best 8 or whatever play off from there.
Co Boards wouldn't be in a rush to "get the County out of the way till we start the Club" 
with a proper pre set Inter County timetable Club championships were also at the Qtr final stage at 1st August.

Even if we never change from the present 2 tweaks badly needed are
1- tighten up the bloody Provincials
2- why do we need 7 weeks from Qtr Finals to AI Final. Play both Semis the same weekend, 1 Sat 1 Sun ( same with the sticks crowd) and you have 2 weekends free of TV games for Co Boards to run a load of Club fixtures.

[Lar Naparka]

Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.

In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.

I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that. I think your end game could be achieved by simply linking the counties to their league positions, and then running off a tiered championship. I wouldn't be in favour of this because it is removing the provincial championships (and the provincial championships are still dear to me anyway).

However, this is how I think something like that would work out.

League Tables 2013. -> All Ireland Series Draw.,

Division 1 teams & Division 2 Teams = Sam Maguire

Division 3 teams & Division 4 teams = Tommy Murphy or Intermediate or whatever.

4 groups of 4 in each.
Top 8 teams make 1/4 finals

If this was run in 2013, it would have panned out like this...

Sam Maguire Group A
Dublin (Div 1 First)
Cork (Div 1 Fifth)
Derry (DIv 2 First)
Galway (Div 2 Fifth)

Sam Maguire Group B
Tyrone (Div 1 Second)
Kerry (Div 1 Sixth)
Westmeath (Div 2 Second)
Armagh (Div 2 Sixth)

Sam Maguire Group C
Kildare (Div 1 Third)
Donegal (Div 1 Seventh)
Laois (Div 2 Third)
Wexford (Div 2 Seventh)

Sam Maguire Group D
Mayo (Div 1 Fourth)
Down (Div 1 Eighth)
Louth (Div 2 Fourth)
Longford (Div 2 Eighth)

Tommy Murphy Group A
Monaghan
Cavan
Limerick
Leitrim

Tommy Murphy Group B
Meath
Sligo
Offaly
Waterford

Tommy Murphy Group C
Roscommon
Antrim
Tipperary
Carlow

Tommy Murphy Group D
Fermanagh
Wicklow
Clare
London

Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. 
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
The Centenary was a genuine attempt to see if people were interested in an open draw, all Ireland competition. They weren't and the experiment was scrapped after two years. That was in 1984/85 and I don't think public opinion has changed much since then.
In the interim, the back door has been opened and the Tommy Murphy came along.
Poor Tommy lasted only four years and I don't recall any county objecting when that competition was scrapped.
The qualifier system is motoring along but I honestly believe that's only because the provincial structure remains in place.  I think it has outlived its usefulness but the general public seem to think otherwise.
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.

Lar, the reason the centenary cup didn't persist was because it was a contrived competition, running in parallel with the All Ireland and Provincial Championships, which all the teams competed in as well. It wasn't REPLACING the All Ireland, it was yet another competition. Having said that I do remember the competition clearly, so it obviously made *some* impact on the consciousness.

I don't think a failed tertiary competitions 29 years ago is a reason to discount similar competitions today, particularly if they are replacing elements of our All Ireland, rather than competing with it.

I know the competition was staged to mark the GAA's centenary but that wasn't the sole reason. Remember it was run the following year as well.
In the years leading up 1984 there was much discussion and outright rows over the future of the association. For some, the fact that the GAA had survived the last hundred years and was now stronger and more popular than ever was proof positive that the fundamentals were sound and no change was needed. 
Others argued that this was the right time to move the association out of the slow lane and to effect changes to reflect the changing social and economic times.
Much rí rá agus ruaille buaille.
The future of the provincial championships got a fair oul' kicking from Malin Head to Mizzen Head and around all parts of the country.
The approach of the centenary provided an opportunity to gauge public opinion and, while ostensibly the competition was run as part of the official commemorations, it main purpose was to see if an open draw All Ireland might be a feasible proposition someday.  While nothing of the kind was being said officially, both the pro and anti sides knew the stakes were high.
In the first year, public interest was reasonably high but the novelty factor had to be considered so it was decided to have a re-run the following year. But public interest had waned and match attendance figures were well down on the previous year. Opposition to the scrapping of the provincial system was one of the main reasons for this; it was strongest in Cork and Kerry and on the hurling side, most, if not all, of the 'traditional' counties wouldn't hear of any changes in any way whatever.
I honestly think we'd have the same result if something similar was tried out at the present time.

[Zulu]

We probably would Lar but such self serving idiocy serves us poorly. I'd love to hear from any defender of the current system how it best serves the association on all fronts.

[Lar Naparka]

We probably would Lar but such self serving idiocy serves us poorly. I'd love to hear from any defender of the current system how it best serves the association on all fronts.

I agree with you that the present system is outdated and badly in need of change but I can't see the provincial system being scrapped.
"Tradition" rears its ugly head whenever the mere idea is mentioned. This applies more to hurling than football.
Can you imagine the fuss that would be kicked up if any move was made to scrap the Munster final?  Whatever slight chance there might be that the football format would be altered, there is absolutely none that the 'traditional' hurling counties would be willing to let go of their provincial finals and derby clashes.
That was the case in 1984/85 and I don't think attitudes have changed much since then.

[Jinxy]

What exactly is a 'meaningless' game in the context of the current system?