Has the Back door become Redundant?

[Rossfan]

That's a grand groupeen you put us in AZ 
No matter what All Ireland system(s) is adopted the Provincials should remain.
With a shortened NFL you would have 5 months April to Aug incl to play the championships ( with both Club and county progressing together) and leave September free for County Semis and Finals.
If you're going down a Sam/Tommy and NFL link route -
Sam to consist of the 8 Prov Finalists and the 8 next highest League teams
Tommy - the rest

[AZOffaly]

Maybe that would be a nice way of doing it Ross, but in fairness from 2012 you'd have the likes of Clare up in Sam by getting to a munster final in 2012.

I can hear the wails of protest from Leinster and Ulster already

[Zulu]

Rossfan;

It would mean no point in the D4 teams bothering with the Championship. Based on this year's NFL final placings your 1st Round would have
Dublin V London, Tyrone v Carlow, Kildare v Waterford, Mayo v Leitrim, Cork v Clare, Kerry v Tipp, Donegal v Offaly and Down v Limerick.

That's true now so my proposal isn't any worse than the current format on those grounds. But at least my format gives Waterford (for example) a chance to get away from Cork and Kerry and also win something tangible. They could win division 4, which would be a genuine achievement when all their fellow div 4 opponents are trying to win it too and by getting to division 3 they would be up against division 2 teams the following championship, not Kerry or Cork. In addition, if they got promoted again they would be playing a division 3 team the following year so teams like Tipp or Offaly who would have serious ambitions of climbing the ladder have both realistic silverware to challenge for and the potential to have a good run in the championship should they work their way up the leagues.

At least with open draws weaker teams have some chance of getting a winnable game but structuring definite defeats and indeed hammerings is a def weakness in your proposal.

Poor teams should be beaten and knocked out early but if you get your house in order this gives you a chance to improve and as supporters of the provincials claim, they have a one off game against better teams with a chance to progress in the championship. For example, it wouldn't be a foregone conclusion that Limerick would lose to Down but what chance had they this year having to beat both Kerry and Cork? If they beat Down in the first round they would be into the last 16 and with a decent draw possibly the last 8, what chance have they of making that under the current system?

Deiseach;

Ah come on. Plenty of us object fundamentally with your proposals. They don't want a Champions League-style system in the GAA. It would abolish the provincial structure that gives many smaller counties something to aim for replaces it with an almost unimaginably large amount of preliminary games just to get to a point where there's a serious knockout match.

Folks disagreed but I didn't see any real pro/con arguments. This isn't a champions league format, nothing like it in fact. My proposal as I mentioned gives all teams something realistic to aim for not some notional idea that a weaker team has something to aim for. Yes, weaker teams do win provincial championships but only when they get pretty good themselves and only on the very rare occasion. Not enough to justify the hair brain structure to the season and the impact this has on club players. In my proposal, weaker teams can win divisions and also get easier paths to an All Ireland by getting good so when a Sligo or Laois get a good squad they could win 3 division titles (all worthwhile as teams are actually trying to win them) and improve their chances of progressing in the All Ireland.

If I'm reading your proposals right, everyone plays seven games to see what their seeding will be in the knockout phase? That's just a ridiculous amount of faffing around. Let's assume everyone took it seriously. That would mean that each year you'd have Kerry or Dublin near the top and Waterford and London near the bottom.

It's not faffing around as each game is important and each season builds upon the previous one. If Waterford or London can't get out of division 4 then they should be knocked out early, why should we have a system that prolongs a season for weaker teams. My one gives them a path to progress you seem to want to pat them on the head for trying. Why should the majority of club footballers in Waterford wait around for the inevitable when my proposal gives Waterford 7 competitive games and one do or die shot at a big gun and if Waterford improve, so do their All Ireland hopes?

You can be certain that within a few years people would be heartily sick of playing seven games so they can be roasted by the same old faces. Yes, that happens in the current system but even the worst counties can hope for a decent draw in the qualifiers and a run there.

See previous points. If you are the manager of a weaker county you could aim to climb the ladder to get a good run in the championship, in other words a real achievable goal. They have nothing now, look at all the boys leaving for the US rather than faff around in the qualifiers until they meet a team that will knock them out. and next year the depressing merry go round will start all over again.

AZ, I'll get to you later!!

[deiseach]

Folks disagreed but I didn't see any real pro/con arguments.

People are explaining to you why they don't like your proposals, so they must be wrong. I give up.

[Zulu]

People are explaining to you why they don't like your proposals, so they must be wrong. I give up.

Not until, AZ and Rossfan did I see any real constructive criticism or responses to my defence of the format. A tactic you're continuing I see. I've never claimed it was a perfect solution, only a better one than the present one but you've neither explained why the current one is good or offered any real reason why mine isn't other than you don't like it.

Tell me how it doesn't improve the lot of club players v the current format.

Tell me how it doesn't improve the number of meaningful games v the current format.

Tell me how it doesn't improve promotion, exposure and finance generating potential of the GAA v the current format.

Tell me how it doesn't improve the chances of a county progressing as a team over time v the current format.

[AZOffaly]

By the way, for my approach to work, we should have a tommy murphy game and a sam maguire game as a double header for the quarter and semi finals. At least if you treated this competition respectfully, teams might actually try and win it. Put it on with a Sam Maguire game, and put them on TV.

[deiseach]

Tell me how it doesn't improve the lot of club players v the current format.

The problem for club players is a lack of will in various County Boards (of which my county is one of the worst) to enforce a functioning club championship. If the will isn't there, no format is going to fix that.

Tell me how it doesn't improve the number of meaningful games v the current format.

You seem to think linking League games to the Championship automatically makes them meaningful. It doesn't, any more than teams in the NHL stateside playing 82 regular season games to lead up to the playoffs makes all those games 'meaningful'. At least in their NHL nearly half the teams get eliminated!

Tell me how it doesn't improve promotion, exposure and finance generating potential of the GAA v the current format.

As I said above, just because they're part of the Championship proper doesn't make them meaningful, or not at least what I would term meaningful. A huge phony war before the real action starts. As I said previously, I'd rather a pure open draw.

Tell me how it doesn't improve the chances of a county progressing as a team over time v the current format.

Nope. The problems of a lack of competitive county teams are not solved at inter-county level. A county panel can only work with what it is given by its clubs. It's akin to saying the fortunes of San Marino could be improved, if only Fifa could come up with the right format.

Through all of this, I appreciate that you want what's best, I really do. That doesn't stop me thinking your proposals are misconceived. And with that, I leave the final word to you. Honest

[Rossfan]

Maybe that would be a nice way of doing it Ross, but in fairness from 2012 you'd have the likes of Clare up in Sam by getting to a munster final in 2012.

I can hear the wails of protest from Leinster and Ulster already

Jayses -we must be doing something right so 

[Zulu]

Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.

Why do you say that AZ? I think I addressed some of that in my other response but I think all games would be serious due to seeding, the proximity to championship and the fact that if teams have their best teams out players want to really win.

In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.

As mentioned the idea is that winning your division would take on similar meaning to winning your division in soccer around the world. Now I know that's a bit of apples and oranges but the satisfaction of winning for supporters and players comes not from the trophy but the knowledge that you beat the best everyone else had to offer. The joy in winning an Offaly intermediate football championship isn't diluted for the players or supporters with the fact that the same team wouldn't win the Dublin senior championship so I think winning division 3 in a proper competitive league would come to mean something.

I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that.

I don't see how the number of mediocre games is increased though, unless I don't understand my own format! The only weak round is the first round of the championship where division 4 meet division 1 but the division 2 and 3 games would be largely 50:50 and every round after would hold the possibility of shocks for sure.

What about the NFL system AZ, any merit in that?

[Zulu]

Tell me how it doesn't improve the lot of club players v the current format.

The problem for club players is a lack of will in various County Boards (of which my county is one of the worst) to enforce a functioning club championship. If the will isn't there, no format is going to fix that.

Tell me how it doesn't improve the number of meaningful games v the current format.

You seem to think linking League games to the Championship automatically makes them meaningful. It doesn't, any more than teams in the NHL stateside playing 82 regular season games to lead up to the playoffs makes all those games 'meaningful'. At least in their NHL nearly half the teams get eliminated!

Tell me how it doesn't improve promotion, exposure and finance generating potential of the GAA v the current format.

As I said above, just because they're part of the Championship proper doesn't make them meaningful, or not at least what I would term meaningful. A huge phony war before the real action starts. As I said previously, I'd rather a pure open draw.

Tell me how it doesn't improve the chances of a county progressing as a team over time v the current format.

Nope. The problems of a lack of competitive county teams are not solved at inter-county level. A county panel can only work with what it is given by its clubs. It's akin to saying the fortunes of San Marino could be improved, if only Fifa could come up with the right format.

Through all of this, I appreciate that you want what's best, I really do. That doesn't stop me thinking your proposals are misconceived. And with that, I leave the final word to you. Honest

Good man deiseach, that's more like it!

On the clubs, I agree there is a lack of leadership at CB level in many counties but the format doesn't help either and I strongly believe that whatever format you use it must be clear when you county teams are playing and when they are not. The current format doesn't do that so we must, IMO, change it.

On the league games being meaningful and promotion, well nobody knows for sure whether they would be genuinely taken seriously but I think logic dictates they would due to the timing of the and genuine chance of winning something and improving your lot. As I said previously no format will guarantee loads of sold out games with both teams going for it 100% but we need to try and get as close to that as we can. I think my proposal has a decent chance of getting there. With only 7 league games most teams should have something worthwhile to play for until at least the last game or two and by that stage the championship is only 3 or 4 weeks away so teams will probably want to get good games even if they have nothing really to play for. This in turn should keep the crowds fairly big and with a large number of games to chose from the TV stations will have games worthwhile televising each week.

On the improvement of teams, I agree 100% but again I would create leagues for minor and U21 and prevent players from playing for more than one code or level. So that these players get numerous games to develop and once in the senior set up if the are improving in the league they should improve in the championship. In the current system, Tipp could be knocked out by Kerry and then get a Tyrone and their whole year is done after two meaningful games and nothing until next summer when they might meet Kerry again.

[Syferus]

Format has never been the main problem, it's been schedule and coaching. You can't hope to change the schedule at senior without re-thinking everything else on the calender too because just about every other grade serves senior when it comes to the master planner for the year. It has to be holistic. Even tightening up the calendar we have today would greatly increase its efficiency but we'd then have to figure out how to use that extra time to improve schedules at other levels.

Given how poor the GAA is at doing that we can't just expect because we've created space it will be elegantly filled by something else. Politics above all else is vested deep within the reason the calendar became a mess and why it remains broken.

The only format change I see making any real difference right now is switching back to a 1A/1B NFL so as to break the D1 monopoly and allow more teams to compete with the best. I'd keep D3/D4 as D2/D3 tiers rather than returning to the 2A/2B crap of old because it would allow teams a more natural build towards the highest level.

Coaching, funding. Those are the two things that will define if the now massive group of mid-tier counties will ever be able to compete with the big boys again. The GAA needs to open its counties' books and get some forensic accountants in to figure out how much (or how little) is being spent by each county at each grade. That means revenue, donations, free 'holidays', whatever has an impact on the organisation in any way.

I still think some manner of pooled revenue/ min-max cap is the only way to ensure a healthier competition at senior level. In the end our goal for the highest grade should be to have the largest possible number of competitive teams because nothing draws interest more than matches where neither side is at all sure of victory.

Having six or seven teams 'and the rest' is a quick route to a sport that will lose mindshare in the country at large. The gaps are becoming larger and larger and we should be thinking about ways to leverage the interest and passion for the sports in counties not at the top tier rather than divorcing them from their 'betters' and placing them in near-pointless second tier competitions.

[AZOffaly]

Zulu, Maybe I'm not understanding your proposal, but it seems like your criteria for meaningful games is a well matched game in the championship, and that each game in the league which would 'seed' the teams would by definition be meaningful because it will determine seed.

I would argue that while the players and mentors might well set themselves goals of getting into division 3, and earning a #3 seed, there would be very little buzz, or excitement about that as a target for the year from the GAA public. As I said, jockeying for position in an endless cycle of division 2,3 and 4 for the right to be knocked out by a top seed is not a very appetising or enthusing prospect, so therefore in my mind, as far as the public (who are the ones that make a championship great or otherwise) are concerned, you'd probably have a whole pile of games being played, but at the end of it it's still the top 4 or 5 that will be winning the All Ireland.

I know that happens at the moment, but I don't see this proposal really improving that, and I see it actually giving the lesser lights one less target that their public might get excited about (a provincial final).

I might be wrong, but you've said numerous times that you want to see the real best teams slugging it out for Sam. You're not a fan of the romantic upset, because it dilutes the quality of the final stages. So therefore what I was suggesting as an alternative would allow you to still make your league meaningful, maybe even more so, and link performance there to your championship seedings. But instead of having the weaker counties acting as cannon fodder for the big ones, they would play for their own properly backed Cup, which would be a real target. I still think a provincial title is worth 5 of these new things, but at least it gives them something they can drink out of

Then as they improve in the leagues, they will make the top 16 and thus enter the Sam Maguire at a level where they should not be blown away, and would get at least 3 games up there, with two qualfying, so they should have something to play for at least into the second game. This would reduce meaningless matches.

I love the provincial championships. I love the fact that Leitrim might be in a Connacht Final again, or that Cavan might get to an Ulster final, or that Kildare might win a Leinster again. They'd be celebrated in those counties like an All Ireland would be in Tyrone, Kerry or Dublin.

However, if there is to be a change, I'd encourage a change that at least allows the Cavans, Offalys, Louths and Roscommons something to aim for, something that the public would recognise as an achievement, because lets face it, in our games public recognition and adulation are huge motivating factors for our players. As I said, I'm not sure earning a #3 seed would cause many tyres to be burned in Offaly.

[southsidejohnny]

Simple really. Play off the provincials in May June. Break each province into two with the winners of each group playing in a final. That way each side should get two / three games in a round robin and the integrity of the provinces is retained. Then in July a straight out of the hat championship open draw. Lose and your gone. 32 teams then 16 then 4 and then the final. Currently its a bore that only comes to life at the QF stage. death by a thousand cuts. free the damn thing

[muppet]

What are the objectives people want from a new system and in what order of priority?

Reading the thread we seem to want:

* more games;
* meaningful games;
* tradition respected, e.g provincial finals;
* a greater spread of winners;
* a proper schedule of regular games;
* a meaningful second competition;
* improvement from weaker teams;
* more that I have missed;

Some of the solutions don't really address a lot of the above issues.

I have said it many times before but I like the proposal from over ten years ago from a committee which included O'Rourke and Martin Carney.

3 divisions.

Div 1a top 11 teams from Ulster/Connacht
Div 1b top 11 teams from Leinster/Munster
Div 2 the rest with promotion to Div 1a & 1b.

Each division plays every team once on a biannual home/away basis. The top 2 teams from each province within the Div 1s  play provincial finals, followed by an AIS and an AIF.

It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out, but it would give regular meaningful games, a proper championship season with a minimum of 10 games for each team and relegation would be a real threat to keep things interesting.

[Rossfan]

Simple really. Play off the provincials in May June. Break each province into two with the winners of each group playing in a final. That way each side should get two / three games in a round robin and the integrity of the provinces is retained. Then in July a straight out of the hat championship open draw. Lose and your gone. 32 teams then 16 then 4 and then the final. Currently its a bore that only comes to life at the QF stage. death by a thousand cuts. free the damn thing

As long as we are in with Leitrim and London I don't mind.

Are you going to eliminate some teams without giving them a chance to play??

Surely you'd seed or give some perk to the Provincial champions instead of an open draw lottery