O'Donoughue starts ranting again...

[realredhandfan]

Lets not use moral arguements then.  Go for it Thomas Davis and every further municipal funded soccor pitch put in place in Ireland there should be a gaelic one alongside er.  Ha Ha

[Lone Shark]

Again Dublinfella, I'm going to take you at face value and accept your assertion that you are not a Rovers fan, and are in fact a GAA member.

Surely by conceding that their approach is "morally dubious" (I would call it morally wrong, but that's merely my personal values, clearly not reflected in the law of the land), surely once you concede this it then becomes incorrect to say that Shamrock Rovers in their current incarnation contributed to the stadium?

You'll notice I've stayed out of this debate so far, largely because I'm not sufficiently equipped with facts to really get involved, but I fail to see how you can, as a supposedly neutral individual merely putting across your point of view, argue that Shamrock Rovers are both (1) a community organisation that deserve this due to their underage teams/scholarships etc. and (2) have contributed to the Stadium, such as it is at the moment?

Surely you either maintain that the pre and post 2005 Rovers clubs are either the same entity, in which case the current Rovers team carries the burden of a long track record of tax defaulting and being unworthy of any kind of state support due to their likelihood to perform some trick equivalent to making off in the night with the loot, or else you maintain that they are different entities, in which case the Rovers you are arguing for have not in fact put one red cent into this project?

I'm trying to leave off my GAA hat for a moment and at least see your point of view, but until you explain this one to me it's hard for me to see you as anything other than a Rovers fan who can't see beyond his own club or else plain and simple a WUM.

[dublinfella]

as far as im concerned they are the same entity, have legally dealt with their previous debts through a mechanism open to all failing businessess, have contributed to the stadium and latterly profoundly changed their way of doing things.

SDCC have structured the deal to ensure that there is no loot for rovers to misuse even if their internal mechanisms would now allow it.

i dont neccesarily see the zero sum nature of the deal you paint.

its a sad trait on this site that anyone who questions GAA orthadoxy is labelled a plant, either a soccer fan or west brit or somesuch. its intellectual laziness to assume that everyone in the organisation agrees with each other all the time. see the fearr rua thread where the majority of posters are very much opposed to TD's actions.

[Croí na hÉireann]

its a sad trait on this site that anyone who questions GAA orthadoxy is labelled a plant, either a soccer fan or west brit or somesuch. its intellectual laziness to assume that everyone in the organisation agrees with each other all the time. see the fearr rua thread where the majority of posters are very much opposed to TD's actions.

In fairness soccerfella, you're not exactly doing yourself any favours by coming onto a GAA Board and almost exclusively talking about Shamrock Rovers. You rarely if ever talk about the Dublin footballers or hurlers and I had to go to post number 55 of your most recent posts there to find one that dealt with either. If you want to stamp out the fire stop throwing bleedin petrol on it!!!

[Lone Shark]

as far as im concerned they are the same entity, have legally dealt with their previous debts through a mechanism open to all failing businessess, have contributed to the stadium and latterly profoundly changed their way of doing things.

SDCC have structured the deal to ensure that there is no loot for rovers to misuse even if their internal mechanisms would now allow it.

i dont neccesarily see the zero sum nature of the deal you paint.

its a sad trait on this site that anyone who questions GAA orthadoxy is labelled a plant, either a soccer fan or west brit or somesuch. its intellectual laziness to assume that everyone in the organisation agrees with each other all the time. see the fearr rua thread where the majority of posters are very much opposed to TD's actions.

The difference is that you seem to be arguing not that Rovers are legally within their rights, but that they are on the moral high ground as well. I personally fail to see how the fact that they successfully exploited a legal loophole suddenly makes it "right" that they get handed a stadium for their exclusive use.

The debate on this site, or so I understood it, was not about the legal minutae but instead about the rights and wrongs of the issue. Using a legal trick to score points does not really enhance your case if it's the right or wrong that you're debating.

On the other hand, the legal aspect of all this will become clear on Friday anyway, by more learned minds than those on here, be they on either side of the fence.

[dublinfella]

as far as im concerned they are the same entity, have legally dealt with their previous debts through a mechanism open to all failing businessess, have contributed to the stadium and latterly profoundly changed their way of doing things.

SDCC have structured the deal to ensure that there is no loot for rovers to misuse even if their internal mechanisms would now allow it.

i dont neccesarily see the zero sum nature of the deal you paint.

its a sad trait on this site that anyone who questions GAA orthadoxy is labelled a plant, either a soccer fan or west brit or somesuch. its intellectual laziness to assume that everyone in the organisation agrees with each other all the time. see the fearr rua thread where the majority of posters are very much opposed to TD's actions.

The difference is that you seem to be arguing not that Rovers are legally within their rights, but that they are on the moral high ground as well. I personally fail to see how the fact that they successfully exploited a legal loophole suddenly makes it "right" that they get handed a stadium for their exclusive use.

The debate on this site, or so I understood it, was not about the legal minutae but instead about the rights and wrongs of the issue. Using a legal trick to score points does not really enhance your case if it's the right or wrong that you're debating.

On the other hand, the legal aspect of all this will become clear on Friday anyway, by more learned minds than those on here, be they on either side of the fence.

but its not for their exclusive use. other soccer teams, underage internationals, rugby and underage gaelic games are pencilled in.

how at this point of proceedings can these blatant innacuracies still be trotted out?

[tayto]

Thats one word, his overall point is watertight.

[dublinfella]

Thats one word, his overall point is watertight.

his overall point is based on the misconception that a: the stadium is for rovers only and b: that the GAA have been excluded.

these, and other, innacuracies doing the rounds profoundly change the percieved rights and wrongs of TD's case.

[Rossfan]

How much of an investment towards the total cost of the operation have Sham Rovs actually staked?

The figure mentioned of SRFC's financial contribution to date is €2m

Of which €1.5 or €1.9m -came from Lotto Grants.
And guess what GAA lads - something to really piss you off - the Council had to pay almost €1.5m to get the lease back !!!!!! (Seriously  source- my "mole" in the SD Council.)
So the Lotto pays for 75 or 95% of the work done;then they get €1.5m to get off the stage and then they get a free Stadium which is estimated will cost €11m. I suspect with the Irish and Government way of doing things that will be about €15m+ before this saga is over.

[dublinfella]

How much of an investment towards the total cost of the operation have Sham Rovs actually staked?

The figure mentioned of SRFC's financial contribution to date is €2m

Of which €1.5 or €1.9m -came from Lotto Grants.
And guess what GAA lads - something to really piss you off - the Council had to pay almost €1.5m to get the lease back !!!!!! (Seriously  source- my "mole" in the SD Council.)
So the Lotto pays for 75 or 95% of the work done;then they get €1.5m to get off the stage and then they get a free Stadium which is estimated will cost €11m. I suspect with the Irish and Government way of doing things that will be about €15m+ before this saga is over.

in 2005 SDCC said it would cost €4m to finish the project.

where is €15m coming from? a mate of yours? 

[Lone Shark]

Thats one word, his overall point is watertight.

his overall point is based on the misconception that a: the stadium is for rovers only and b: that the GAA have been excluded.

these, and other, innacuracies doing the rounds profoundly change the percieved rights and wrongs of TD's case.

I will accept that I erroneously used the word exclusive when in actual fact I meant primary. For the record, the GAA have not been excluded theoretically, however they have been excluded from using for any of the games for which it actually would be most useful - Dublin club games on the southside, or lower profile intercounty matches for the purposes of evangelising on the other side of the city. I don't know the local situation in South Dublin enough to know if it will actually be used for U-14 games, however I doubt that seperate posts would be put in place for games like that - but again, not being in the know, I would defer to the local clubs.


My point was merely that while you feel that the morally correct way to proceed in this matter is for TD to step aside and for the state to continue to build this stadium for the PRIMARY use of Shamrock Rovers. You used their previous contribution to bolster this. I merely wished to point out that while this may somehow be an argument in the legal sense, in the moral sense it certainly isn't, since those contributions were made by a morally as well as fiscally bankrupt entity. 

[johnpower]

What a mess . Sport is about participation getting people involved especially at local level .In a city with where green space is at a premium the best use is to accomodate all possible sports in this new facility . Dunlinfella I dont have time to read all 15 pages but can you tell me is it possible to accomodate both and still have a decent capacity.? John O D has been very generous to Clubs in South Kerry as has been highlighted in the press but is for me he and his Governmenmt are a disgrace when it comes to sport. look at the  money has been wasted in the Bertie Bowl.,the bullshit prior to the GAA congress in Galway sports facilities in schools

[Rossfan]

in 2005 SDCC said it would cost €4m to finish the project.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Spin me good man. €4m my arse  HA ha ha ha

LANSDOWNE 50,000 EST COST €365M
Talladome      6,000   - €365m divide by 9 = €40m.

[dublinfella]

. Dunlinfella I dont have time to read all 15 pages but can you tell me is it possible to accomodate both and still have a decent capacity.?

No. The capacity would be cut from 10,000 to 2,000 to fit a full size GAA pitch.

To small to be any use to Rovers or the Dubs.

[tayto]

if you believe Rovers, on the other hand there is a theory that you could do it and not effect the attendance, but fellas me lad dosent believe it.