Irish governments turn to answer claims of collusion

[fearglasmor]

Not abandoned, but were moving on from it. Seems not.

How would 'moving on' manifest itself? What would have been the appropriate response to the Smithwick tribunal?

Maybe a cliché, but, moving on would manifest itself in acknowledging the past without glorifying it. The use of the word brave was wrong.
An appropriate response would have been an acknowledgement of the context in which the executions took place without heroising ? those who carried it out. Calling them brave does this.

To be honest it was more the performance of their rep on TV3 that I was taken by.
Political leaders make statements all the time to serve different audiences and they dont neccessarily mean a lot.

[deiseach]

Maybe a cliché, but, moving on would manifest itself in acknowledging the past without glorifying it. The use of the word brave was wrong.
An appropriate response would have been an acknowledgement of the context in which the executions took place without heroising ? those who carried it out. Calling them brave does this.

To be honest it was more the performance of their rep on TV3 that I was taken by.
Political leaders make statements all the time to serve different audiences and they dont neccessarily mean a lot.

That's fair enough, but I don't see what you saw in Sinn Féin previously that made you think they would behave any differently here than they did. They are nothing if not 'on message'.

[fearglasmor]

Maybe a cliché, but, moving on would manifest itself in acknowledging the past without glorifying it. The use of the word brave was wrong.
An appropriate response would have been an acknowledgement of the context in which the executions took place without heroising ? those who carried it out. Calling them brave does this.

To be honest it was more the performance of their rep on TV3 that I was taken by.
Political leaders make statements all the time to serve different audiences and they dont neccessarily mean a lot.

That's fair enough, but I don't see what you saw in Sinn Féin previously that made you think they would behave any differently here than they did. They are nothing if not 'on message'.

Yeah.  Maybe I was just taken in by the Mary Lou factor.

[lawnseed]

What did people expect Gerry to say?
" Absolutely disgraceful murder of two innocent police officers"
He might as well then add - the whole campaign of the ProvoIRA was "a disgraceful terrorist campaign"
What next - FG and FF to repudiate 1916 as a "disgraceful event by a bunch of extremists which must be condemend by all right thinking people"??
No doubt the Provos saw the killing of Breen/Buchanan as a good days work and Gerry as their leader( of the SF wing only of course) can hardly repudiate that.

jeez we agree

[Nally Stand]

Regardless of the argument, SF have committed political suicide with Adams statement and then compounded it with the performance on Vincent Brown last night.

People suddenly find out Adams was an IRA supporter now just? 

Hypocritical or not the vast majority of people in the south have no interest in violence be it war or terrorism.

Yes they do. If they stand to benefit from it, that is. Come on to this thread on Easter Sunday 2016 when the thousands and thousands will be parading through Dublin and try telling me then that the good-two-shoes people of the 26 counties don't condone violence.

People, me for one, who had been warming a little to SF, in the belief that they had left the past behind have been shocked back into the cold reality of what SF really are.
Its a real pity, I thought they might develop into a credible alternative over time, but no votes from me Mr Adams.

So what exactly did Gerry say yesterday that upset you? That the RUC officers were too relaxed about their own safety? Wasn't he then only repeating what was stated in the report? Was your problem that he said the report was contradictory? Well it did say there was collusion but that there was no evidence found of collusion. Wasn't Gerry just calling a spade a spade? Or calling a contradiction a contradiction?

For someone who's freedom was won at gunpoint, but who is so appalled by violence, maybe you could tell us what your opinion was on the Gardaí openly co-operating with the RUC?

[lawnseed]

Regardless of the argument, SF have committed political suicide with Adams statement and then compounded it with the performance on Vincent Brown last night.

People suddenly find out Adams was an IRA supporter now just? 

Hypocritical or not the vast majority of people in the south have no interest in violence be it war or terrorism.

Yes they do. If they stand to benefit from it, that is. Come on to this thread on Easter Sunday 2016 when the thousands and thousands will be parading through Dublin and try telling me then that the good-two-shoes people of the 26 counties don't condone violence.

People, me for one, who had been warming a little to SF, in the belief that they had left the past behind have been shocked back into the cold reality of what SF really are.
Its a real pity, I thought they might develop into a credible alternative over time, but no votes from me Mr Adams.

So what exactly did Gerry say yesterday that upset you? That the RUC officers were too relaxed about their own safety? Wasn't he then only repeating what was stated in the report? Was you problem that he said the report was contradictory? Well it did say there was collusion but that there was no evidence found of collusion. Wasn't Gerry just calling a spade a spade? Or calling a contradiction a contradiction?

For someone who's freedom was won at gunpoint, but who is so appalled by violence, maybe you could tell us what your opinion was on the Gardaí openly co-operating with the RUC?

Michael Collins, the wind that shakes the barley every film depicting Irish life around the time 1916 has Irish volunteers shooting Brits ffs even far and away a film with tom cruise and Nicole kidman has a Irishman taking aim at a Brit, all are depicted as heroes i,ve yet to see a show where the old IRA man was the baddie the Irish government annually line up were mick Collins was shot he was a leader of the IRA and yet  for some reason blowing the brains out of a British soldier in 1900 is different than doing it in 1989. records show that turn of the century 'volunteers' shot their land owning proddy neighbours- fellow Irishmen in every sense of the word for their land. now we have the direct descendants in government in the south- actual blood relations of these same old IRA men feigning disgust at the same thing happening in south Armagh.. a warzone! a warzone recognised by the Brits and the yanks and anyone who cares to look at the history of the place.

I want to know what the difference is? why is OLD IRA = GOOD AND MODERN IRA=BAD

[CD]

Regardless of the argument, SF have committed political suicide with Adams statement and then compounded it with the performance on Vincent Brown last night.

People suddenly find out Adams was an IRA supporter now just? 

Hypocritical or not the vast majority of people in the south have no interest in violence be it war or terrorism.

Yes they do. If they stand to benefit from it, that is. Come on to this thread on Easter Sunday 2016 when the thousands and thousands will be parading through Dublin and try telling me then that the good-two-shoes people of the 26 counties don't condone violence.

People, me for one, who had been warming a little to SF, in the belief that they had left the past behind have been shocked back into the cold reality of what SF really are.
Its a real pity, I thought they might develop into a credible alternative over time, but no votes from me Mr Adams.

So what exactly did Gerry say yesterday that upset you? That the RUC officers were too relaxed about their own safety? Wasn't he then only repeating what was stated in the report? Was you problem that he said the report was contradictory? Well it did say there was collusion but that there was no evidence found of collusion. Wasn't Gerry just calling a spade a spade? Or calling a contradiction a contradiction?

For someone who's freedom was won at gunpoint, but who is so appalled by violence, maybe you could tell us what your opinion was on the Gardaí openly co-operating with the RUC?

Michael Collins, the wind that shakes the barley every film depicting Irish life around the time 1916 has Irish volunteers shooting Brits ffs even far and away a film with tom cruise and Nicole kidman has a Irishman taking aim at a Brit, all are depicted as heroes i,ve yet to see a show where the old IRA man was the baddie the Irish government annually line up were mick Collins was shot he was a leader of the IRA and yet  for some reason blowing the brains out of a British soldier in 1900 is different than doing it in 1989. records show that turn of the century 'volunteers' shot their land owning proddy neighbours- fellow Irishmen in every sense of the word for their land. now we have the direct descendants in government in the south- actual blood relations of these same old IRA men feigning disgust at the same thing happing in south Armagh.. a warzone! a warzone recognised by the Brits and the yanks and anyone who cares to look at the history of the place.

I want to know what the difference is? why is OLD IRA = GOOD AND MODERN IRA=BAD

Time

[lawnseed]

Regardless of the argument, SF have committed political suicide with Adams statement and then compounded it with the performance on Vincent Brown last night.

People suddenly find out Adams was an IRA supporter now just? 

Hypocritical or not the vast majority of people in the south have no interest in violence be it war or terrorism.

Yes they do. If they stand to benefit from it, that is. Come on to this thread on Easter Sunday 2016 when the thousands and thousands will be parading through Dublin and try telling me then that the good-two-shoes people of the 26 counties don't condone violence.

People, me for one, who had been warming a little to SF, in the belief that they had left the past behind have been shocked back into the cold reality of what SF really are.
Its a real pity, I thought they might develop into a credible alternative over time, but no votes from me Mr Adams.

So what exactly did Gerry say yesterday that upset you? That the RUC officers were too relaxed about their own safety? Wasn't he then only repeating what was stated in the report? Was you problem that he said the report was contradictory? Well it did say there was collusion but that there was no evidence found of collusion. Wasn't Gerry just calling a spade a spade? Or calling a contradiction a contradiction?

For someone who's freedom was won at gunpoint, but who is so appalled by violence, maybe you could tell us what your opinion was on the Gardaí openly co-operating with the RUC?

Michael Collins, the wind that shakes the barley every film depicting Irish life around the time 1916 has Irish volunteers shooting Brits ffs even far and away a film with tom cruise and Nicole kidman has a Irishman taking aim at a Brit, all are depicted as heroes i,ve yet to see a show where the old IRA man was the baddie the Irish government annually line up were mick Collins was shot he was a leader of the IRA and yet  for some reason blowing the brains out of a British soldier in 1900 is different than doing it in 1989. records show that turn of the century 'volunteers' shot their land owning proddy neighbours- fellow Irishmen in every sense of the word for their land. now we have the direct descendants in government in the south- actual blood relations of these same old IRA men feigning disgust at the same thing happing in south Armagh.. a warzone! a warzone recognised by the Brits and the yanks and anyone who cares to look at the history of the place.

I want to know what the difference is? why is OLD IRA = GOOD AND MODERN IRA=BAD

Time

what is the cut off point when did it change

[CD]

Regardless of the argument, SF have committed political suicide with Adams statement and then compounded it with the performance on Vincent Brown last night.

People suddenly find out Adams was an IRA supporter now just? 

Hypocritical or not the vast majority of people in the south have no interest in violence be it war or terrorism.

Yes they do. If they stand to benefit from it, that is. Come on to this thread on Easter Sunday 2016 when the thousands and thousands will be parading through Dublin and try telling me then that the good-two-shoes people of the 26 counties don't condone violence.

People, me for one, who had been warming a little to SF, in the belief that they had left the past behind have been shocked back into the cold reality of what SF really are.
Its a real pity, I thought they might develop into a credible alternative over time, but no votes from me Mr Adams.

So what exactly did Gerry say yesterday that upset you? That the RUC officers were too relaxed about their own safety? Wasn't he then only repeating what was stated in the report? Was you problem that he said the report was contradictory? Well it did say there was collusion but that there was no evidence found of collusion. Wasn't Gerry just calling a spade a spade? Or calling a contradiction a contradiction?

For someone who's freedom was won at gunpoint, but who is so appalled by violence, maybe you could tell us what your opinion was on the Gardaí openly co-operating with the RUC?

Michael Collins, the wind that shakes the barley every film depicting Irish life around the time 1916 has Irish volunteers shooting Brits ffs even far and away a film with tom cruise and Nicole kidman has a Irishman taking aim at a Brit, all are depicted as heroes i,ve yet to see a show where the old IRA man was the baddie the Irish government annually line up were mick Collins was shot he was a leader of the IRA and yet  for some reason blowing the brains out of a British soldier in 1900 is different than doing it in 1989. records show that turn of the century 'volunteers' shot their land owning proddy neighbours- fellow Irishmen in every sense of the word for their land. now we have the direct descendants in government in the south- actual blood relations of these same old IRA men feigning disgust at the same thing happing in south Armagh.. a warzone! a warzone recognised by the Brits and the yanks and anyone who cares to look at the history of the place.

I want to know what the difference is? why is OLD IRA = GOOD AND MODERN IRA=BAD

Time

what is the cut off point when did it change

How long is a piece of string Lawnseed? Because our society, politics, values and outlook are constantly changing, our view of the past is constantly evolving. People who were viewed as villains 50 years ago are heroes today and vice versa. All knowledge is provisional and is rigorously challenged. I think this is a good thing. I have no doubt that some of the leading players in NI over the past 30 years will at some point in the future be viewed in a different light - one way or the other.

[lawnseed]

Lawnseed, why does everything in your life have to be related back to films?

maybe you'd try to address the question
upon the release of the movie micheal Collins and the wind.. there was nearly a full week of jaomeebollix phone in time on the state broadcaster. people streaming out of irish cinemas all applauding the shows.. how they were based on fact and how their grand fathers took part in the actual events WHY was that action good. why was it ok for volunteers in the 26 to fight for their freedom and not ok for us to do the same in the six?

whats the difference

[Nally Stand]

Regardless of the argument, SF have committed political suicide with Adams statement and then compounded it with the performance on Vincent Brown last night.

People suddenly find out Adams was an IRA supporter now just? 

Hypocritical or not the vast majority of people in the south have no interest in violence be it war or terrorism.

Yes they do. If they stand to benefit from it, that is. Come on to this thread on Easter Sunday 2016 when the thousands and thousands will be parading through Dublin and try telling me then that the good-two-shoes people of the 26 counties don't condone violence.

People, me for one, who had been warming a little to SF, in the belief that they had left the past behind have been shocked back into the cold reality of what SF really are.
Its a real pity, I thought they might develop into a credible alternative over time, but no votes from me Mr Adams.

So what exactly did Gerry say yesterday that upset you? That the RUC officers were too relaxed about their own safety? Wasn't he then only repeating what was stated in the report? Was you problem that he said the report was contradictory? Well it did say there was collusion but that there was no evidence found of collusion. Wasn't Gerry just calling a spade a spade? Or calling a contradiction a contradiction?

For someone who's freedom was won at gunpoint, but who is so appalled by violence, maybe you could tell us what your opinion was on the Gardaí openly co-operating with the RUC?

Michael Collins, the wind that shakes the barley every film depicting Irish life around the time 1916 has Irish volunteers shooting Brits ffs even far and away a film with tom cruise and Nicole kidman has a Irishman taking aim at a Brit, all are depicted as heroes i,ve yet to see a show where the old IRA man was the baddie the Irish government annually line up were mick Collins was shot he was a leader of the IRA and yet  for some reason blowing the brains out of a British soldier in 1900 is different than doing it in 1989. records show that turn of the century 'volunteers' shot their land owning proddy neighbours- fellow Irishmen in every sense of the word for their land. now we have the direct descendants in government in the south- actual blood relations of these same old IRA men feigning disgust at the same thing happing in south Armagh.. a warzone! a warzone recognised by the Brits and the yanks and anyone who cares to look at the history of the place.

I want to know what the difference is? why is OLD IRA = GOOD AND MODERN IRA=BAD

Time

So is it that time can make something (say a bullet in the head for instance) which was say morally wrong and unjustifiable, actually become moral and justifiable? Or is it just that time makes it easier to justify to ones self the holding of grossly hypocritical views?

[lawnseed]

How long after the events of 1916 did Ireland decide to hold dear the memory of our GPO heroes and why can we not use the same time frame, CD?

exactly! castledawson? whats wrong with us doing the same as fine gael in cork.

[lawnseed]

hold on Mexicans.. we're still fighting! we're not shooting but we are still fighting things aren't quite right here yet. we're getting there but theres a way to go. not only have we to fix this place but we have to fix your place as well.. yous might be happy with having a shite government for a hundred years but that's not how we see our future.. roll on the dungout

[fearglasmor]

hold on Mexicans.. we're still fighting! we're not shooting but we are still fighting things aren't quite right here yet. we're getting there but theres a way to go. not only have we to fix this place but we have to fix your place as well.. yous might be happy with having a shite government for a hundred years but that's not how we see our future.. roll on the dungout

Yer too late late,  we've already been sold on to the Germans.

[CD]

How long after the events of 1916 did Ireland decide to hold dear the memory of our GPO heroes and why can we not use the same time frame, CD?

It's a myth that Irish Public Opinion was against the Rising from the start and that the subsequent treatment of the ringleaders coupled with British brutality led to a ground swell of support. Public sympathy for the goals of the 'rebels' was always there.
The same time frame can't be used because it's a different time.