Irish governments turn to answer claims of collusion

[screenexile]

Ah there you have it, bleat on about lack of evidence on collusion, but blow two guys away with out the benefit of due process.

Thanks AiA!!!

[Applesisapples]

I've just heard Adams remarks...FFS he is completely out of touch.

Which remarks have you just heard? The one's you earlier said you were listening to on the radio this morning?...

Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame.

Adams is well past his use by date.

The same Gerry Adams who brought SF to be the largest party in the six counties and tripled their representation in the Dáil since the last election? That Gerry Adams?

Past history. His comments in this instance are ill judged both in timing and in assessing the mood of voters.

GTF Apples, you're always scraping around for an excuse to attack him and it's particularly reprehensible you're mimicking unionists and Free State gombeens (Martin & Shatter) who use death for cheap personal attacks. In this case Adams comments reflect the substance of Smithwick's report and for you and other to suggest different takes us all for idiots.

Absolutely not. But Adams remarks amount to blaming the men for their own deaths. They were unarmed...shoot to kill??

[Wildweasel74]

Adams  has been a liability for a long time, comes across as a practiced liar, so entrenched he belives what he says himself, why Sinn Fein dont do a complete sweep of politicians who has questionable backgrounds and bring in young people with no ira background history which is the common stick used to beat them by unionsit politicans. Ever the DUP has the sense to keep Willie McCrea on a low profile and reduce his influence in the party after been on stage with Billy Wright. Sinn Fein could become a party all could vote for in the north, if they got rid of the link to the IRA which keeps coming back on them all the time.

[Nally Stand]

Adams  has been a liability for a long time, comes across as a practiced liar, so entrenched he belives what he says himself, why Sinn Fein dont do a complete sweep of politicians who has questionable backgrounds and bring in young people with no ira background history which is the common stick used to beat them by unionsit politicans. Ever the DUP has the sense to keep Willie McCrea on a low profile and reduce his influence in the party after been on stage with Billy Wright. Sinn Fein could become a party all could vote for in the north, if they got rid of the link to the IRA which keeps coming back on them all the time.

The people who fixate so much on whether or not Adams was in the IRA are the sort of people who wouldn't vote for him if they could write Adam's statements and speeches for him themselves. Gerry Adams at the most recent election led his party to over triple their representation in the Dáil. He topped the poll in his constituency. He has come out top in countless opinion polls (as recently as this summer) as the most popular party leader in the country. You can't argue with results. I'd say SF are in no big rush to change a winning formula by and replace him until he decides to put his feet up and retire.

[lawnseed]

My point is you dont have to equivocate, condemn it for what it is or say nowt, it's not defensible.

No it isn't, and it doesn't reflect well on the guards. Not because they were all in cahoots with the Provos but because of an unwillingness to deal with dodgy elements in their own ranks. It was the same with the McBrearty debacle in Donegal. The upper echelons knew something was wrong but they kept kicking the can down the road in the hope that . . . well, I don't know what they were hoping. Basically that it would all go away.

Note that any objective assessment of the murders of Bob Buchanan and Harry Breen has to incorporate their amazingly cavalier attitude to their own safety. They had a self-image of being ordinary peelers going about their day's work helping old ladies across the street and giving rapscallions a toe up the behind. They would regularly pop into any barracks along the border to talk shop. It was an insane way for two senior RUC officers to behave and the longer it went on the more the chances of something happening to them approached 1.

Careful deiseach, Adams is getting hammered in the Dail and the media for saying the same thing.

That's class!! Almost as good as the rapists defence of "the way she was dressed she deserved it!!!

Cop on lads!

No they deserved it for the 80+ sectarian Glenanne Gang murders to which Breen supplied the weapons and the 'take no prisoners' Loughgall ambush in which he helped organise. That the driver Bob Buchanan believed God would protect him despite being so cavalier about their personal safety just made it easier.

and cavaliers aren't buletproof

[lawnseed]

Adams  has been a liability for a long time, comes across as a practiced liar, so entrenched he belives what he says himself, why Sinn Fein dont do a complete sweep of politicians who has questionable backgrounds and bring in young people with no ira background history which is the common stick used to beat them by unionsit politicans. Ever the DUP has the sense to keep Willie McCrea on a low profile and reduce his influence in the party after been on stage with Billy Wright. Sinn Fein could become a party all could vote for in the north, if they got rid of the link to the IRA which keeps coming back on them all the time.

yes

Adams  has been a liability for a long time, comes across as a practiced liar, so entrenched he belives what he says himself, why Sinn Fein dont do a complete sweep of politicians who has questionable backgrounds and bring in young people with no ira background history which is the common stick used to beat them by unionsit politicans. Ever the DUP has the sense to keep Willie McCrea on a low profile and reduce his influence in the party after been on stage with Billy Wright. Sinn Fein could become a party all could vote for in the north, if they got rid of the link to the IRA which keeps coming back on them all the time.

yes your right

The people who fixate so much on whether or not Adams was in the IRA are the sort of people who wouldn't vote for him if they could write Adam's statements and speeches for him themselves. Gerry Adams at the most recent election led his party to over triple their representation in the Dáil. He topped the poll in his constituency. He has come out top in countless opinion polls (as recently as this summer) as the most popular party leader in the country. You can't argue with results. I'd say SF are in no big rush to change a winning formula by and replace him until he decides to put his feet up and retire.

yes your also right
that's the position sinn fein find themselves in

[Rossfan]

. Gerry Adams at the most recent election led his party to over triple their representation in the Dáil. He topped the poll in his constituency. He has come out top in countless opinion polls (as recently as this summer) as the most popular party leader in the country. You can't argue with results.

And still you refuse to join them 

[Maguire01]

Adams is well past his use by date.

The same Gerry Adams who brought SF to be the largest party in the six counties and tripled their representation in the Dáil since the last election? That Gerry Adams? The man whom Fr Alec Reid, in his last public interview, described as "probably the most capable politician we have...probably one of the most capable politicians in Europe". Him?

Wasn't that the same interview that Fr Alec Reid said Gerry was "sent by God"... 

That aside, there's no denying Adams' political leadership. That he managed to bring the vast majority of the republican movement to where we are today - convince them to abandon violence for an agreement that was light years away from their objectives - is nothing short of spectacular.

Having said that, I wouldn't want him running the country. And his political achievements in the south are fairly modest. Yes, he topped the poll in Louth, but the party ran one candidate. Yes, he tripled Dáil representation, but from a very low base, and in the context of an outgoing government that were always going to be hammered... well you just wonder what another leader might have managed.

[lawnseed]

it amazes me how Irish civil servants working in Dublin castle in 1916 and for some time thereafter who supplied details of the names of British agents and spies to the IRA (who wasted no time in shooting them) are heroes now and whose relatives adorn jaomeebollix's liveline show every week applauded by the listening public on the state broadcaster. and now guards who 'may' have did the same thing are traitors..

get this in 1989 THERE WAS WAR HERE!! a filthy dirty war.. these two cops were killed in the war just like those poor guys in cemeteries in Flanders or the kids being flown back to Wotton bassett from Afghanistan.. they were combatants!

a war Gerry adams helped bring to an end. btw

[Maguire01]

I wonder if Nally Stand is as upset with this collusion.

Rest assured, Nally Stand won't lose any sleep over an ambush on two senior RUC men; one of whom was named by John Weir in a sworn affidavit as belonging to a loyalist paramilitary group in County Down who were closely tied to the UVF. I am also fairly content to know that any collusion was, as evidenced in today's report, due to "someone", in one garda station who passed on information to the IRA, and was not a functioning, long running state policy, as was the case with british state collusion.

RA needed all the help they could get,just think more Garda should have been helping them instead of colluding with the RUC to kill and jail fellow Irishmen who were fighting oppression in a part of their country.

So what, the Garda should have colluded with the IRA to kill (more) fellow Irishmen?

[lawnseed]

I wonder if Nally Stand is as upset with this collusion.

Rest assured, Nally Stand won't lose any sleep over an ambush on two senior RUC men; one of whom was named by John Weir in a sworn affidavit as belonging to a loyalist paramilitary group in County Down who were closely tied to the UVF. I am also fairly content to know that any collusion was, as evidenced in today's report, due to "someone", in one garda station who passed on information to the IRA, and was not a functioning, long running state policy, as was the case with british state collusion.

RA needed all the help they could get,just think more Garda should have been helping them instead of colluding with the RUC to kill and jail fellow Irishmen who were fighting oppression in a part of their country.

So what, the Garda should have colluded with the IRA to kill (more) fellow Irishmen?

I doubt if either of these ruc men considered themselves 'irishmen'. I can categorically tell you that any of the on the runs in the 26 during the war were absolutely tortured by their fellow 'irishmen' in the guards

[Myles Na G.]

it amazes me how Irish civil servants working in Dublin castle in 1916 and for some time thereafter who supplied details of the names of British agents and spies to the IRA (who wasted no time in shooting them) are heroes now and whose relatives adorn jaomeebollix's liveline show every week applauded by the listening public on the state broadcaster. and now guards who 'may' have did the same thing are traitors..

get this in 1989 THERE WAS WAR HERE!! a filthy dirty war.. these two cops were killed in the war just like those poor guys in cemeteries in Flanders or the kids being flown back to Wotton bassett from Afghanistan.. they were combatants!

a war Gerry adams helped bring to an end. btw

"As far as Gerry Adams having referring to there being a war at the time, it was a war substantially created by the Provisional IRA."
Alan Shatter today, reflecting the views of the vast majority of Irish people on this island.

[michaelg]

it amazes me how Irish civil servants working in Dublin castle in 1916 and for some time thereafter who supplied details of the names of British agents and spies to the IRA (who wasted no time in shooting them) are heroes now and whose relatives adorn jaomeebollix's liveline show every week applauded by the listening public on the state broadcaster. and now guards who 'may' have did the same thing are traitors..

get this in 1989 THERE WAS WAR HERE!! a filthy dirty war.. these two cops were killed in the war just like those poor guys in cemeteries in Flanders or the kids being flown back to Wotton bassett from Afghanistan.. they were combatants!

a war Gerry adams helped bring to an end. btw

You gotta love the old "it was a war" line to justify murder.  Different story though when its armed IRA men killed on active service.

[Wildweasel74]

i think the shoot to kill line get used in them circumstances even if they have guns. Usually war status comes under the geneva convention in relation to rules of war, otherwise former serbs never would have ended up in the hague under war crimes!so is killing 2 unarmed men a war crime? saying the IRA never could facilitate prisoners. Next trial for IRA men could end up in the hague for war crimes if Sinn Fein keep trotting out the old it was a war line (or maybe the use of a conflict occurred does the need for any of that away?)

[Maguire01]

I wonder if Nally Stand is as upset with this collusion.

Rest assured, Nally Stand won't lose any sleep over an ambush on two senior RUC men; one of whom was named by John Weir in a sworn affidavit as belonging to a loyalist paramilitary group in County Down who were closely tied to the UVF. I am also fairly content to know that any collusion was, as evidenced in today's report, due to "someone", in one garda station who passed on information to the IRA, and was not a functioning, long running state policy, as was the case with british state collusion.

RA needed all the help they could get,just think more Garda should have been helping them instead of colluding with the RUC to kill and jail fellow Irishmen who were fighting oppression in a part of their country.

So what, the Garda should have colluded with the IRA to kill (more) fellow Irishmen?

I doubt if either of these ruc men considered themselves 'irishmen'. I can categorically tell you that any of the on the runs in the 26 during the war were absolutely tortured by their fellow 'irishmen' in the guards

Regardless of what they considered themselves, they were Irishmen. But I wasn't referring exclusively to these men - if the Garda had colluded with the IRA on a larger scale (as the previous poster suggested "should" have happened), they would, without doubt, have been killing fellow Irishmen.