Donegal v Dublin semi final 28-8-11

[ross matt]

you would hope that anyone who found donegal enthralling isnt coaching teams. otherwise we will never see the likes of colm cooper again. what we will have are cheats, divers and olympic handballers.

Exactly the point I was making.

[lynchbhoy]

you would hope that anyone who found donegal enthralling isnt coaching teams. otherwise we will never see the likes of colm cooper again. what we will have are cheats, divers and olympic handballers.

well I have coached teams (just not this year). Have coached one to win the dublin minor championship and have a couple of lads on the Dublin senior panel now.
I've coached underage in Dublin and guest coached in Kildare and Derry.

In order to master your art (which I say I am a long way off from- by comparison to others on this thread let alone in the country) you need to know all aspects- good bad, what can be done and what not to do.
I found the defensive aspect very interesting , as in all (ball playing) sports, championship winning teams are built on solid defenses. Personally I prefer a balance and would not countenance a Donegal style system.
Just because I may have been rough and put a few in hospital in my own playing days doesnt mean I would ever coach that- I just wouldnt.
Its very naive Indy of you to suggest that just because someone finds something interesting , they dont have a clue.
In actual fact Irish society reflects this attitude. Sure if I pick up a paint brush or a trowel or a saw for 24 months - I'm a master painter/brickie/chippie - or where I have seen a lad with a couple of years supporting computers and a fw mcse's - well they think they are capable of becomming IT managers etc. You need to know as much as yer head can handle to know your art.
IMO.
What is wrong with the quest for knowlede and appreciation of this and understanding that you still know nothing in the greater scheme of things !

[lynchbhoy]

Brilliant post LB, you are coming back to your best!

I havent gone away you know TFAL !!

[ONeill]

Lynchbhoy is writin balax.

[Hardy]

I just fear some sides (certainly club ones) will see Donegal making the last 4 as success and as a result plan a similar strategy.

They will if they're stupid and they'll soon find out it won't work unless you're extraordinarily fit - fitter than most club sides can achieve and fitter than Donegal were yesterday - and have fifteen good enough footballers to make VERY few mistakes in possession.

you would hope that anyone who found donegal enthralling isnt coaching teams. otherwise we will never see the likes of colm cooper again.

Complete shite. The likes of Colm Cooper, who can operate in almost zero space, is exactly the type of player that's needed against a defence like Donegal's.

[lynchbhoy]

I must add that yesterday , wathing Donegal reminded me of AC milan in the 90's.
A system where they played the ball back and forward in their own 'backfield' and moved it from side to side to open up the opposition ,then when a bit of space or a chink of opportunity was spotted,they would go after this.
Donegal profited from doing this in the first half, but as the game wore on, they stopped going after these opportunities. Partially due to fatigue, but more so , I would say due to being 3 points ahead and 15 mins left and they went into retreat mode and the fear took over.

did McGuinness borrow his gameplan from soccer?
Well he had a lone striker up front !!

[INDIANA]

you would hope that anyone who found donegal enthralling isnt coaching teams. otherwise we will never see the likes of colm cooper again. what we will have are cheats, divers and olympic handballers.

well I have coached teams (just not this year). Have coached one to win the dublin minor championship and have a couple of lads on the Dublin senior panel now.
I've coached underage in Dublin and guest coached in Kildare and Derry.

In order to master your art (which I say I am a long way off from- by comparison to others on this thread let alone in the country) you need to know all aspects- good bad, what can be done and what not to do.
I found the defensive aspect very interesting , as in all (ball playing) sports, championship winning teams are built on solid defenses. Personally I prefer a balance and would not countenance a Donegal style system.
Just because I may have been rough and put a few in hospital in my own playing days doesnt mean I would ever coach that- I just wouldnt.
Its very naive Indy of you to suggest that just because someone finds something interesting , they dont have a clue.
In actual fact Irish society reflects this attitude. Sure if I pick up a paint brush or a trowel or a saw for 24 months - I'm a master painter/brickie/chippie - or where I have seen a lad with a couple of years supporting computers and a fw mcse's - well they think they are capable of becomming IT managers etc. You need to know as much as yer head can handle to know your art.
IMO.
What is wrong with the quest for knowlede and appreciation of this and understanding that you still know nothing in the greater scheme of things !

there is no quest for knowledge for diving cheating and feigning injury. im a former defender and i found nothiing enthralling about yesterday. if i needed the help of 5 forwards to help me mark my man when i was playing i would have retired at 21.
the sheer skulduggery that when on yesterday is what i have a problem with.

[lynchbhoy]

Lynchbhoy is writin balax.

quite possibly. But its just my opinion.
Either way I enjoyed the game.
Just sorry to see the season is almost over again !

[Canalman]

Very bizarre game.

1stly hard luck to Donegal and the Donegal posters here.

You couldn't have scripted a better way for us to win a semi final (bar sending off and injuries). Reckon the fillip the team will get in winning this way is huge.

Dublin fans I thought were immense and really got behind the team............helped alot by the chants of "Donegal Donegal" after the booing of the style of play in first half.

Roll on the 18th.

[ONeill]

Lynchbhoy is writin balax.

quite possibly. But its just my opinion.
Either way I enjoyed the game.
Just sorry to see the season is almost over again !

Only codding, though I'd disagree that teams will start copying Donegal's style.

The season's only starting. The muck and stoor of November brings out the best in the likes of Loup, Crossmaglen and Carrickmore.

[HiMucker]

I had some harsh words to say about Donegals style of play after the Derry game, but that was probably more bitterness on my part.  I think a lot of the criticism of Donegal and Jim McGuiness in the aftermath of yesterdays match is unwarranted.  I do think it is dire to watch but agree with other posters that it is somewhat fascinating to see how teams go about tactically to play against "the system".  Donegal management and players have obviously put in a hell of an amount of graft to get an ulster tittle and to an AI semi.  If they devise a game plan that is within the rules of the game it is up to the opposition to counter it.  It is the essence of all invasion sports.  Fair play to Dublin they decided the best way to counter Donegals gameplan was to play them at their own game and it worked. I hope they go on and beat Kerry.  Now I know that Donegal also conduct gamesmanship, or bending of the rules such as the cynical fouling etc, to implement their game plan but so to many other teams, albeit not to the same level.  People are saying that the rules need to be looked at to stop Gaelic football turning into a bore fest, but I feel the rules are already there, that they are just not being applied properly or the punishments for breaches of the rules are not harsh enough.  We all know that many teams commit cynical fouls to slow the game down or to stop an opposition attack. That forwards are told to share these fouls out, which can sometimes be one foul, another and you get a tick and then another and its a yellow card.  That can be six forwards with 12 fouls and not even a card shown.  I think if players were booked for any fouls were there was no attempt to tackle the ball, such as Jersey pulls from behind and pulling men down then these defensive systems would be harder to implement.  Any breaches of the rules to slow the play down such as standing in front of free takers and throwing the ball away should always be a yellow card as well.  Some players are still on the pitch after maybe committing half a dozen cynical fouls.
I actually think that these systems will bring the sport on as there will be alot more coaching of plays to break it down rather than just off the cuff football.
One of the only criticisms I would have of Jim on sunday is that he left M Murphy out the pitch the whole match.  In other games he has done this and it has worked to some extent, but yesterday Murphy was stuck out the field where it was very congested just winning breakball and hand passing it off like any one of his other team mates could do.  To get the best out of any team you use all the different individual attributes of your players, and Murphy has a few attributes that very few players possess and donegal didn't use them.

[HiMucker]

you would hope that anyone who found donegal enthralling isnt coaching teams. otherwise we will never see the likes of colm cooper again. what we will have are cheats, divers and olympic handballers.

Just because I may have been rough and put a few in hospital in my own playing days doesnt mean I would ever coach that- I just wouldnt.
Its very naive Indy of you to suggest that just because someone finds something interesting , they dont have a clue.
In actual fact Irish society reflects this attitude. Sure if I pick up a paint brush or a trowel or a saw for 24 months - I'm a master painter/brickie/chippie - or where I have seen a lad with a couple of years supporting computers and a fw mcse's - well they think they are capable of becomming IT managers etc. You need to know as much as yer head can handle to know your art.
IMO.
What is wrong with the quest for knowlede and appreciation of this and understanding that you still know nothing in the greater scheme of things !

Knowledge is power LB!

[lynchbhoy]

there is no quest for knowledge for diving cheating and feigning injury. im a former defender and i found nothiing enthralling about yesterday. if i needed the help of 5 forwards to help me mark my man when i was playing i would have retired at 21.
the sheer skulduggery that when on yesterday is what i have a problem with.

I abhor diving and cheating, always did. In actual fact, if a ref didnt catch on to it when I was playing, I'd try to dish out my own brand of retribution. That was wrong also.

You say you were a former defender - as a former defender, did you ever pull a jersey, grab an arm, trip a lad up, block a mans run (third man tackle)?
If you didnt fair play to you  -but you must have retired at u12  level.
To me (a former - rubbish- forward) all the above are aspects of cheating. They are fouls, but the refs usually dont give frees for them or dont see them as they are usually quite subtle or even off the ball.
These fouls have got worse with the trash talking, fingers up erses (take a bow mr walsh) , diving, stopping quick frees and the much maligned on here fouling 'cynicism'.

At what point do people object to 'skulduggery'.
Is it the pulling or dragging? Is it the diving or feigning inj? is it the cynical fouls? or is it the massed defence and soccer-eque formation that makes the game look dreadful but is actually more within the rules than the previous examples.
Dublin like most teams are adept at pulling, dragging and the occasional dive too.
Bernard Brogan I have to say is not a diver- was chatting to his oul lad after the last game and he told me that he was saying to BBjr that he could get more frees if he actually went to ground, but BBjr wouldnt do it.
Others in the dublin side are not as 'clean'.
If you think that Dublin are above fouling then yer stone mad. I would like a clean no fouls game myself, but thats cuckoo land. Its part of the game and every defender does it - though I'm waiting interestedly on your own response on whether you fouled as a defender or not !!

Yes, yesterdays game intrigued me greatly and like all things ying and yang, you have to be able to take the bad games as much as you applaud the good games !

[lynchbhoy]

Only codding, though I'd disagree that teams will start copying Donegal's style.

The season's only starting. The muck and stoor of November brings out the best in the likes of Loup, Crossmaglen and Carrickmore.

Would worry that a lot of coaches would think - well we've sihte forwards but a great freetaker from distance - might give that oul donegal 1-13-1 formation a go....


Dromore- big tip for Tyrone again this season ! Apparantly flying again.

[winghalfun]

I could be as far out as Wicklow Head on this one but there seemed to be an abject demeanour to Martin McHugh in the pre game analysis on the BBC.
I know that he tipped Dublin to win which showed that his head did not rule his heart.

But there appeared to be more to this than simply using a judgement based on the gathering of facts and the rationale of probability.
He appeared very uncomfortable in even wanting to suggest that Donegal could win.

I am no psychologist but given his close connection to the Donegal team, it was as if he knew something that we didn't and it made him uneasy.
Maybe it will be left unsaid or maybe someone will break ranks, but reading between the lines I think Martin's message was that some or all the players would have liked the shackles to have been loosened a little so that they could play a bit of football.

As I said just a hunch.