All-Ireland and Provincial Championships. Is it time for new formats for both?

[CorkmaninLondon]

Believe that the current back door system is killing our national games (along with professionalism in other sports) and certainly the Provincial Championships. Would like to see current Leagues scrapped and replaced with Provincial Leagues where Counties could play home and away in Munster (6 Counties) and Connacht (6 incl New York); Ulster (10 incl London) and Leinster (12) could have Counties play once in neutral venues or home and away on alternative years. Whilst teams are far from their peak in the Winter, believe All-Ireland Seeding Positions and local rivalries should revive interest in the Provincial Championships. Whether Group Winners are crowned Provincial Champions or secures them Home match final against Runners-Up could be debated, along with merits of extending League by having Provincial Winners (and possibly Runners-Up) to Play on for All-Ireland League title. If this new format were to take place it could enable a seeded draw for the All-Ireland Championships, possibly with group stages where top team(s) advance to another group stage, then knock-out at Quarter/Semi-Final Rounds. There would be no back door, but all teams would have plenty of games. Teams getting knocked out in group stages can then play out for All-Ireland rank (for following season) for the Secondary titles that already exist. Do think that all counties would have to field teams in both codes for this proposal to work (weaker counties could be allowed 'borrow' unselected squad players from stronger counties each year to help game(s) progress there, but thats probably for another discussion board!

[Paddy Wan Kenobi]

Scrap the National League and play Provincial championships. Then depending on how you do in that, you'll be seeded in four distinct bands. The provincial champions and runners-up will be seeded in top bracket and each one will be top seeds in eight seperate groups like the Champions League with each county getting three guaranteed games before the last 16 knockout starts, then onto the quarter final etc.

[tommysmith]

What it the thinking behind have London in Ulster and not one of the provinces that have 6 teams?

[Paddy Wan Kenobi]

I didn't say scrap the provincials, I said play them. I only suggested scrapping the league.

[Any craic]

Danny Murphy the Ulster Sec says the Donegal joy yesterday in Clones proves the importance of the provincial championships. It was certainly nice to see fans and players go nuts about winning Ulster cos no offence to recent winners but we havent seen that for a while.  http://tiny.cc/hxgoq

[PAULD123]

I didn't say scrap the provincials, I said play them. I only suggested scrapping the league.

Corrected my comments:

I'm bang opposed to seedings in Gaelic football. All it does is perpetuate an elite group. The champion's league is becoming a joke. The seeding system works simply to ensure that 2 English, 2 Spanish, 2 Italian, a German and a French team get to the last 16. A seeding system would keep Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Kildare, Tyrone, Armagh & Down all apart and effectively guarantee them safe passage to the latter stages with no real risks. That would become a turn off for people.

More importantly it prevents the beautiful transitory nature of football that exists as we have no transfer system. Some years  a lesser county suddenly gets lucky with a good crop of players. In an open draw they have the same chance to shine. In a seeding system they have harder games than the better established teams and so are at a disadvantage and have less chance to make the breakthrough. Seeding is a way of preserving a group of teams at the top when they no longer deserve to be there.

Incidentally your system makes little sense you say "Scrap the National League and play Provincial championships. Then depending on how you do in that, you'll be seeded in four distinct bands."

But how do you compare performances in differing provincial championships? Roscommon got to the Connaght final so do you think they deserve to be seeded ahead of Armagh or Down. Down lost to Armagh, but are better than the team Roscommon beat in the quarter final (New York), Armagh lost to Derry but are better than the team Roscommon beat in the semi (Leitrim). 

Also if you scrap the leagues how to counties develop their teams? A second competition is absolutely essential to try out new formations and line-ups as preparation for the championship. And in the league most games are competitive. Your system guarantees that there are a load of games that are deliberately uncompetitive because to make sure that one of the least performing teams plays one of the best performing teams in at least every group, how may people do you think would be eager to part with money for that game?

[Hardy]

I'm glad we're finally airing this subject here.

[Paddy Wan Kenobi]

Under my 'flawless' system, you could increase it so all teams play their three group rivals home and away, giving each county six games a season guaranteed, plus any games they get in the provincial. To be fair though I haven't heard any suggestion that somebody else hasn't said is flawed, so who knows?

[Blue06]

I would only make a slight alteration to the current format for the football.

People have to remember we are not professional and any notions of having a 'Champions league' style format are not for me.  Every Championship match has to mean something and with a Champions league style format we would end up with dead rubber matches, teams not turning up, pulling out, no crowds, in effect a farce.
Remember our games are parochial and that is where our strength lies, hence the provinces should be restored to greater importance than the qualifiers.

The changes I would make is have May called Qualifier month. (Reduce the amount of league games by 1 or 2 so that it finishes in  mid April)
All teams in an Open draw with 3 rounds delivering 4 teams into the AI Quarter Finals in August.

Then play the provinces from June onwards.

If a team wins their province and is also a qualifier then they automatically make the AI semi final.
(loss of revenue by not having a QF should not be brought into the argument imo)

This would bring the real knockout back to the provinces, every team will have had their 2 chances, so no more whinging from the provincial winners.

The provincial draws can also be made according to how their teams are progressing in the Open Draw qualiifiers.  The should mean teams should not have to wait to long to play and also that they get at least 2 weeks gap between playing.

Other criteria could include that in the Open draw there has to be a winner on the day i.e. no replays so continue to play extra tim till you have a winner or have some form of shoot out.

With floodlights in most grounds now, provinces should play games(where appropriate) on Sat night as well as Sunday.

[PAULD123]

Although opposed to seeding I do however think the championship needs a tidy-up. I think we should definitely keep the league for the reasons I  have stated above.

My main concern is that there is less and less interest in the provincial competitions. If you lose a final you only go back one step (round 4) and so only have to win one extra game to get to the quarter final like the team that beat you. So Cork and Kerry don't care too much about winning Munster, and Dublin wouldn't have shed a tear if Kildare had beat them. Secondly they take so long to run that once a team is out their fans have well lost neutral interest by the time the final comes around

So my proposal is:

I think we should have more football. Instead of spacing the provincial championships one game a week I think more should be run at once. I think the provincial championship and the All-Ireland should be separate competitions. Here is how I think it should work:

1) Starting May the provincial championships are run one week after another, quarters, semis, then final (maybe every fortnight to allow for replays) but all teams in a round play the same weekend. The winner gets an automatic bye into the All-Ireland quarter-finals (as happens now)

2) Here is the big difference - Starting June, the All-Ireland series (apart from the four provincial winners) should now be played as a totally open-draw knock-out system for the remaining 28-29 teams, with the provincial champions joining in quarter final stage.

This is different because everyone enters the "qualifier" stage at the same time and the same level. It effectively makes the provincial championship a separate competition with a big incentive for winning. Also it stops this idea of virtually guaranteeing  a couple of early easy qualifying games because all teams would be available in the open draw.

The big flaw may be that provincial winners could go 6 weeks with no football as they miss the whole qualifiers. There was a suggestion made to me that the four provincial winners play a mini-round robin in this time and the top two go straight to the semis, with the other two joining last round of qualifiers in a quarter final scenario to decide the other two semi-finalists.

The idea is to change the system to improve it but without doing anything too drastic that would be too big a risk to consistency of the game. I think the modifications above improve the situation by putting increased focus on provincial championships, making it fairer for all, separating the competitions and giving us more football to enjoy.

[Jinxy]

I'm glad we're finally airing this subject here.

It's long overdue.

[AZOffaly]

I propose something along the lines of the Ulster Hurling Championships.

Keep the system as it is now, with 4 provincial championships, each arriving at a provincial winner who march on to the 'Preliminary' Quarterfinals.

Then you have the backdoor producing another 4 'Preliminary Quarterfinalists'.

After that, you reduce these 8 down to 4, then 2. These two play a final elimination match.

The winner then qualifys to play automatic qualifiers Offaly in the All Ireland Final, the week after an Offaly legend calls the players disinterested and undisciplined.

That'd be great.

[02]

There was a suggestion made to me that the four provincial winners play a mini-round robin in this time and the top two go straight to the semis, with the other two joining last round of qualifiers in a quarter final scenario to decide the other two semi-finalists.

I have been banging on about this for years, glad to see PaulD outline the logical way it should be ran to protect the status of the provincial champions and not lead to the current situation were winning it is almost an irrelevance in terms of the AI.  Also only 2 backdoor teams will have a chance to compete in the quarter finals which is proper order.

[CorkmaninLondon]

Like the idea of the four Provincial Winners playing Group matches with top 2 getting Semi-Final Spots
and bottom 2 playing the two teams that emerge from qualifiers in Quarter-Finals. Would give reward to
Provincial Winners insofar as they get 3 (or 6) meaningful matches against quality opposition whilst
qualifiers are played and could see this system work in football at least!
As for hurling, would Galway and Antrim merit getting an automatic QF for picking up their Provincial titles over
Dublin and Waterford (though both well beaten in their Provincial finals, they have bounced back in qualifiers).
Of course there is option of leaving them remain in Leinster and instead of playing out Munster and Leinster finals,
allow finalists of both to playing Group matches (in same way as above) with added spice of those Provincial finals
being played when they clash in their group. Again, top 2 get SF slot and bottom 2 play QF against 2 that
emerge from qualifiers.
Think we have something here to make bring back importance of Provincials (as well as making back door harder)!

[David McKeown]

I have to say I despise the current system and would prefer a return to straight knock out over it ( not that it's ideal either) but I'd imagine it won't change in the foreseeable future.  That said I liked Mickey Hartes idea a few years back of the provincial winners playing each other in the quarter finals with the losers dropping into the qualifiers and the winners meeting each other in the semis where the process would repeat. It would have the effect of making the qualifiers a much longer route than the direct route and would ensure at least one front door team in the AI final.

Last year 6 teams were beaten only once in the championship. Of those 6 teams 5 didnt even make the AI semi finals. For me that devalues not only the provinicial titles but the AI as a whole.  Under Hartes idea, the only game you could lose and not get a second bite at the cherry in is the AI final.