All-Ireland and Provincial Championships. Is it time for new formats for both?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

He is quoted in this week's Ros Herald saying the All Ireland Quarter Final is where you want to be. He doesnt mind whether his team qualifies by the Provincial or the Qualifier route.
Spin that buckeen .

Changing the subject, that's an answer to a totally different question; of course he want's to be there, D'oh! His problem is with the inherent unfairness of the system regarding provincial champs.

Nobody gets a second chance... if you're knocked out of the All Ireland Championship you're OU bloody T.

You did FFS, in this year of 2011, and so did we! That's why the fecking Qualifiers were introduced: TO GIVE TEAMS A SECOND CHANCE IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP!

There's delusion, and then there are those who believe that the current system can't be improved.

[Rossfan]

Fear , there are none so blind as those with good eyes who refuse to see ( or for an intelligent man you're shockin thick  )
Roscommon lost in the CONNACHT CHAMPIONSHIP ( Tyrone can't play in that)
Tyrone lost in the ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP ( Ros can't play in that)
We are meeting Saturday in the ALL IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP ( in which both Counties play every year since 2001 - up to that you could only play in the AI if you were a Provincial Champion.
Micky only had a problem with Provincial Champions  been beaten by "back door" teams  in the years when Tyrone won Ulster and then lost in the AI Championship.
Meanwhile Breheny is only an eejit.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

One question for you Rossfan: were the Qualifiers introduced so that the beaten team would get a second chance in their respective provincial championship?

If you can answer that honestly and truthfully I do believe you cannot help yourself but to see the blinding fecking light! 

A little clue: the answer cannot in any way, shape or form be 'Yes'! 

[Rossfan]

I presume you were educated by Jesuits Fear as you are trying to tie me into some diabolical knot.
The Qualifiers were introduced to help teams get out of the provincial strait jackets.
I believe the fact that Ulster had the 3 top teams in Ireland in the early 90s 2 of whom couldnt make it to the National Championship opened peoples' eyes to the  daftness of the then current system.
The only person to consistently keep referring to "secondchance" ( his pronunciation) is Breheny. nuff said.

There may indeed be a better system somewhere than the current one .... so let the GAA investigate thoroughly and see what they might come up with.

[borderfox]

32 county open draw with no back door. Hows that for fair and every game will have 2 teams going flat out to win.
Otherwise scrap the preliminary round in Ulster and parachute Armagh into Connacht so we can enjoy handy runs to the AIQF too.

[Hound]

It is absolutely true to say that some teams get two chances to lose in the All Ireland series, while others get one. It is also true to say that all teams get only one chance to lose in their provincial championship.

I am not particularly bothered either way but it is twisting things dramatically to try to suggest that every team only gets one chance to win the All-Ireland Championship by adding after they finish with their provincial Championships as if it is an unconnected competition.

Its not twisting things at all. Its an indisputable fact that every team gets one chance to win their province, and then once chance to win the All Ireland.

They are not unconnected competitions, but they are separate competitions (which is as obvious as the nose on your face, given you don't have to win your province to win an All Ireland).

[PAULD123]

I have proposed this before and I am posting it again because I really think this is a good solution, I'd like to hear if other people agree. I have have a proposal that preserves provincial championships, restore's their importance and at the same time makes the All-Ireland draw much fairer.

My main concern is that there is less and less interest in the provincial competitions. If you lose a final you only go back one step (round 4) and so only have to win one extra game to get to the quarter final like the team that beat you. So Cork and Kerry don't care too much about winning Munster, and Dublin wouldn't have shed a tear if Kildare had beat them. Secondly they take so long to run that once a team is out their fans have well lost neutral interest by the time the final comes around

So my proposal is:

I think we should have more football. Instead of spacing the provincial championships one game a week I think more should be run at once. I think the provincial championship and the All-Ireland should be separate competitions. Here is how I think it should work:

1) Starting May the provincial championships are run one week after another, quarters, semis, then final (maybe every fortnight to allow for replays) but all teams in a round play the same weekend. The winner gets an automatic bye into the All-Ireland quarter-finals (as happens now)

2) Here is the big difference - Starting June, the All-Ireland series (apart from the four provincial winners) should now be played as a totally open-draw knock-out system for the remaining 28-29 teams, with the provincial champions joining in quarter final stage.

This is different because everyone enters the "qualifier" stage at the same time and the same level. It effectively makes the provincial championship a separate competition with a big incentive for winning. Also it stops this idea of virtually guaranteeing a couple of early easy qualifying games because all teams would be available in the open draw.

The idea is to change the system to improve it but without doing anything too drastic that would be too big a risk to consistency of the game. I think the modifications above improve the situation by putting increased focus on provincial championships, making it fairer for all, separating the competitions and giving us more football to enjoy.

[David McKeown]

The main issue I'd have with this is that provincial winners have to wait a very long time before their first AI game. They will then be against a team with 3-5 games under their belt.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I presume you were educated by Jesuits Fear as you are trying to tie me into some diabolical knot.
The Qualifiers were introduced to help teams get out of the provincial strait jackets.

Jeez Ross, I put a very simple question to you that needed only a 'Yes ' or 'No', and you then bang on about Jesuits, knots and straitjackets FFS! 'Tis no wonder your mind is in such a fog over the issue!

The myth that the Provincials are somehow separate from the main event are just that: a fecking MYTH! The ultimate end game of the Provincials has always been the All-Ireland, always!

There's no denying, however, that for some counties the Provincials mean a lot more than for other counties; but that's changes nothing except that it means more for those specific counties.

I was actually happy that we were dumped out of the Ulster this year... because the system is so seriously fecked-up as it's currently constituted that is actually profits a team to be beaten early on. How seriously screwball is that?

Now, let me ask you this simple question again: were the Qualifiers introduced so that the beaten team would get a second chance in their respective provincial championship?

[Rossfan]

A Fhear , I will debate/discuss things as I see fit ... NOT answer questions to your agenda.
You think the present system is bad , I don't.
I pointed out a few facts ... you ( being from the North  where this comes naturally) won't accept anything that doesn't conform to your already formed belief.
90% of the GAA agree with me , 10% agree with you.

I like the present format as it keeps the old traditional Provincial championships ( diluted in overall importance maybe but is that any big problem?) with their local rivalries etc , gives teams a chance to win silverware who arent good enough to win a National title.
Also ensures that the best teams get a shot at a National Title even if the top 2 or 3 are in the one Province.
Also helps a team with potential to get some more Championship games ato enable them to improve.
Wexford,Limerick,Sligo,Westmeath ,Fermanagh have all had good days in the Noughties as a result of the present "dual carriageway" system of Provincial and Qualifiers.
And what's so special about Provincial Champions that they have to be cossetted from the real world? They've won their Province ... let's see how they shape up Nationally.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I will accept anything Ross, that's logical, not based on some fanciful whim of nostalgia! 

You can't let go of the tradition, fair enough. But to pretend that the AI and the Provincials are two totally separate competitions is pure disingenuous and deluded bunkum: if that were the case it would not be compulsory to enter the AI series via the Provincials; but that is the case.

And your inability to answer a simple question just exposes the very shaky foundations of your 'logic', I fear! 

[Rossfan]

to pretend that the AI and the Provincials are two totally separate competitions is pure disingenuous and deluded bunkum: i

You are right .....
They are in fact FIVE separate competitions

Game set and match to me !!!!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Yep Ross, if you think that a particular team can play in five distinct competitions it's game, set and match to you. It sure is! 

[muppet]

It is absolutely true to say that some teams get two chances to lose in the All Ireland series, while others get one. It is also true to say that all teams get only one chance to lose in their provincial championship.

I am not particularly bothered either way but it is twisting things dramatically to try to suggest that every team only gets one chance to win the All-Ireland Championship by adding after they finish with their provincial Championships as if it is an unconnected competition.

Its not twisting things at all. Its an indisputable fact that every team gets one chance to win their province, and then once chance to win the All Ireland.

They are not unconnected competitions, but they are separate competitions (which is as obvious as the nose on your face, given you don't have to win your province to win an All Ireland).

The argument that they are separate competitions doesn't stand up. Your counties fixtures in one are completely dependent on your results in the other.

Either way the following statement applies: 4 counties can lose no game en route to Sam Maguire while the others can one.

[Kerry Mike]

The main issue I'd have with this is that provincial winners have to wait a very long time before their first AI game.
They will then be against a team with 3-5 games under their belt.

And strangely enough playing 3 or 4 tough competitive games is always cited as the main reason why Ulster teams have historically not done well in winning All Irelands. Yet when teams get a run of games together in the qualifiers then they are primed for All Ireland success , it would confuse Confusius