All-Ireland and Provincial Championships. Is it time for new formats for both?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Perhaps not all games in the Qualifiers could rightly be described as 'tough competitive games' KM! (No disrespect intended, well, not much  )

Think of it more as momentum building (in the Qualifiers), as opposed to attritional, though that's over-simplifying it too I'd say.

[Orangemac]

1.  Teams enter it at completely different rounds. Win the preliminary round in Ulster then the quarter final and then lose the semi final and you enter the qualifiers at round 2. Lose your first match in Munster and you can be in the same round.

2. Beaten provincial finalists can sometimes have as little as 6 days to recover from a loss when it suits the GAA for TV reasons. Whilst others can have up to 4 weeks to get over that defeat.

3. Provincial winners can have up to 6 weeks off and can face a team coming off a run of only 2 games in 2 weeks.  Hardly fair to expect teams to be at peak condition in such a scenario.

On the above
1) it is not a fair system but while the provincial councils hold any power one that is unlikely to change any time soon.

2 & 3) Should be easily sorted. No reason why provincial championships cannot be played off in 6 weeks. Does there need to be only 1 game in Ulster every week? If the Ulster council are worried about people who go to every game they could have games on a Sat night and Sunday.

[Lone Shark]

I can't believe that this thread got to page four before anyone mentioned the main reason why change is so difficult to execute - the provincial councils. They depend on their competitions for revenue, and they protect them ferociously. For a completely different reason - club games - I agree that the provincial competitions should be run off a lot quicker. Start them all in May, have them all done by the middle of June. Play the qualifiers thick and fast, and those who win games always get the optimum break - the system is not built to protect the losers, as it is now.

That way the clubs get August/September/October to themselves, and you don't have this farce now where club teams are playing some championship in May and then breaking until late July. It's also a fairer system, though TV wouldn't go for it as much.

The crucial thing here is that the provincial winners get the ideal 2/3 week break until their quarter final, while the qualifiers have to come through a much more gruelling ordeal with no break. Every losing team gets two weeks break, draws if they occur have to be either played to a finish or else the sides have to accept that the loser will be out six days later - if they can agree to midweek  then great, if not then so be it. (Midweek is realistic for Offaly vs Laois in Portlaoise, it's not for Longford vs Wexford in Pearse Park).

Here's how my theoretical schedule would work, based on this year's calendar. I haven't tried to integrate hurling yet, but it could be done.

W/E 1st May    1 x Ulster Prelim, 3 x Leinster Prelim, 3 x Connacht QF
W/E 8th May    2 x Ulster QF, 2 x Munster QF, 1 x Leinster QF (Non prelim teams)
W/E 15th May   2 x Ulster QF, 3 x Leinster QF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 22nd May   1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Munster SF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 29th May   1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Leinster SF, Qualifiers Round 1
W/E 5th June   5 x Qualifiers Round 2 (no 6 day turnaround for losers of SFs the previous week), Connacht Final
W/E 12th June  3 x Qualifiers Round 2, Munster Final, Ulster Final, Leinster Final
W/E 19th June  Qualifiers Round 3
W/E 26th June  Qualifiers Round 4
W/E 3rd July   AI Quarter Finals
W/E 17th July  1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 24th July  1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 7th August AI Final

If we put this in place, then you could also try to time most club championships to start in Mid July. Have a big nationwide marketing campaign - you've seen the county players, now go see them down at your local field. Club players till get some summer time, and they can take holidays in June if they want, when club leagues would be played.


I do think we have to keep the provinces - just because a handful of counties aren't interested doesn't mean we bin them for everyone. It's a realistic piece of silverware for most counties, whereas the All Ireland is out of reach for a lot of them. The problem is things like the Ulster council having one game per week, Connacht taking three months to play six games, and Munster flying through it early so as not to steal any thunder from their hurling championship.

[Hound]

The argument that they are separate competitions doesn't stand up. Your counties fixtures in one are completely dependent on your results in the other.

Either way the following statement applies: 4 counties can lose no game en route to Sam Maguire while the others can one.

Fecks sake muppet. They are connected, as I said, as the the better you do in the provincials, the later you enter the All Ireland competition.

I'm sorry for anyone who is too blind to see that you are not playing for Sam Maguire when you are still in your provincial championship (you are playing for your provincial championship), and once you do enter the All Ireland series, you only get once chance regardless of how you did in the provinces.

And strangely enough playing 3 or 4 tough competitive games is always cited as the main reason why Ulster teams have historically not done well in winning All Irelands. Yet when teams get a run of games together in the qualifiers then they are primed for All Ireland success , it would confuse Confusius

Exactly.

And very little mention of all the good a run in the qualifiers did Down and Armagh this year!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

No point in arguing with a someone who thinks the Provincial Championship is on a par with the All-Ireland!

Anyways, good effort above there Lone Shark. That's the kind of (lateral) thinking that'll extract us from the current disastrous excuse for an equitable competition, though I wouldn't be so deferential towards the Provincial Councils - they'll have to move into modernity like the rest of the Association... eventually!

[Jinxy]

The current system is very unfair on counties that don't win their province.

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Here's hoping that run continues next weekend.

[Hound]

Serious miracles going on this weekend considering the "huge disadvantage" the poor oul provincial champions have

[LeoMc]

The current system penalises provincial winners: Simple fact.

The reason Mickey Harte isn't saying anything about it at the minute (or at least no one is printing anything he's saying about it at the minute) is because... his team aren't Provincial Champs! D'oh!

[mylestheslasher]

I can't believe that this thread got to page four before anyone mentioned the main reason why change is so difficult to execute - the provincial councils. They depend on their competitions for revenue, and they protect them ferociously. For a completely different reason - club games - I agree that the provincial competitions should be run off a lot quicker. Start them all in May, have them all done by the middle of June. Play the qualifiers thick and fast, and those who win games always get the optimum break - the system is not built to protect the losers, as it is now.

That way the clubs get August/September/October to themselves, and you don't have this farce now where club teams are playing some championship in May and then breaking until late July. It's also a fairer system, though TV wouldn't go for it as much.

The crucial thing here is that the provincial winners get the ideal 2/3 week break until their quarter final, while the qualifiers have to come through a much more gruelling ordeal with no break. Every losing team gets two weeks break, draws if they occur have to be either played to a finish or else the sides have to accept that the loser will be out six days later - if they can agree to midweek  then great, if not then so be it. (Midweek is realistic for Offaly vs Laois in Portlaoise, it's not for Longford vs Wexford in Pearse Park).

Here's how my theoretical schedule would work, based on this year's calendar. I haven't tried to integrate hurling yet, but it could be done.

W/E 1st May    1 x Ulster Prelim, 3 x Leinster Prelim, 3 x Connacht QF
W/E 8th May    2 x Ulster QF, 2 x Munster QF, 1 x Leinster QF (Non prelim teams)
W/E 15th May   2 x Ulster QF, 3 x Leinster QF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 22nd May   1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Munster SF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 29th May   1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Leinster SF, Qualifiers Round 1
W/E 5th June   5 x Qualifiers Round 2 (no 6 day turnaround for losers of SFs the previous week), Connacht Final
W/E 12th June  3 x Qualifiers Round 2, Munster Final, Ulster Final, Leinster Final
W/E 19th June  Qualifiers Round 3
W/E 26th June  Qualifiers Round 4
W/E 3rd July   AI Quarter Finals
W/E 17th July  1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 24th July  1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 7th August AI Final

If we put this in place, then you could also try to time most club championships to start in Mid July. Have a big nationwide marketing campaign - you've seen the county players, now go see them down at your local field. Club players till get some summer time, and they can take holidays in June if they want, when club leagues would be played.


I do think we have to keep the provinces - just because a handful of counties aren't interested doesn't mean we bin them for everyone. It's a realistic piece of silverware for most counties, whereas the All Ireland is out of reach for a lot of them. The problem is things like the Ulster council having one game per week, Connacht taking three months to play six games, and Munster flying through it early so as not to steal any thunder from their hurling championship.

What happens if there is a draw in the qualifiers - penalty shoot out?

[Hound]

Replays are a curse for club games - not only in the 2 counties involved, but inevitably there a knock-on effect in other counties (eg the Armagh Wicklow draw impacted on Tyrone, Ros and Dublin)

[INDIANA]

A Fhear , I will debate/discuss things as I see fit ... NOT answer questions to your agenda.
You think the present system is bad , I don't.
I pointed out a few facts ... you ( being from the North  where this comes naturally) won't accept anything that doesn't conform to your already formed belief.
90% of the GAA agree with me , 10% agree with you.

I like the present format as it keeps the old traditional Provincial championships ( diluted in overall importance maybe but is that any big problem?) with their local rivalries etc , gives teams a chance to win silverware who arent good enough to win a National title.
Also ensures that the best teams get a shot at a National Title even if the top 2 or 3 are in the one Province.
Also helps a team with potential to get some more Championship games ato enable them to improve.
Wexford,Limerick,Sligo,Westmeath ,Fermanagh have all had good days in the Noughties as a result of the present "dual carriageway" system of Provincial and Qualifiers.
And what's so special about Provincial Champions that they have to be cossetted from the real world? They've won their Province ... let's see how they shape up Nationally.

people are fed up with the same tired old pairings. There would be far bigger interest if the same teams didn't play each other every year. Its just boring at this stage.

The GAA has to compete with other sports who vary their formats. Hanging on to the current outdated relic wont improve matters.

[Lone Shark]

What happens if there is a draw in the qualifiers - penalty shoot out?

Same as now - you play extra time, if it's still a draw. If that's still a draw after that, you have scope in rounds 1 and 2 for a replay the following weekend, if not, then you play it midweek. It's not ideal but the message to be borne in mind here is that these teams are the ones getting a second chance - they should appreciate any type of reprieve, rather than looking the gift horse in the mouth.

Alternatively you could do like happened with Armagh/Wicklow/Tyrone/Roscommon this year - it's no real disadvantage to delay one of the quarter finals.

[Jinxy]

So in a complete reversal of last year, all the provincial finalists made it through.
All that reactionary hot air for nothing.

[AZOffaly]

Shock, horror. The irony is that this year, had Tyrone been champions of Ulster, they could probably have used the break. I think Mickey Harte has simply fallen into the same trap that many other great managers before him have. He held on to a great team just a little too long, and now it's a rebuilding job. Micko did the same with Kerry, but I don't think it'll be 11 years before we hear from Tyrone again.