Leadership community failure in the North

[heganboy]

 I saw a report that came out that only one in ten of working class protestant male children in state school in Northern Ireland get to go to University.

That may be one of the single biggest failings of politicians of any hue in the North. Equality begins with education.

Where are the leaders of that community, and surely all political parties in the North should be doing something about this?

[Ulick]

They're all too busy devising a cunning plan to stop MMcG becoming First Minister.

[Orior]

They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.

The recent soccer match between St Marys CBS and Boys Model is a clear illustration of the old Paisleyite mopery attitude that still exists. He hasnt gone away you know.

[Tony Baloney]

They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.

The recent soccer match between St Marys CBS and Boys Model is a clear illustration of the old Paisleyite mopery attitude that still exists. He hasnt gone away you know.

What's the story here Orior? I knew there was boxing but assumed it was just regular post-match fisticuffs.

[johnneycool]

They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.

That's my take on it as well. For years young protestants with a basic education walked into well paid jobs in the shipyards, shorts, cops and civil service with no questions asked.

When we were growing up it was hammered (literally) into you that you needed a good education to get a job and with the advent of fair employment legislation were in a better position to get jobs.

The attitude in some of these area's still hasn't changed that much and as the DUP and UUP don't really represent the working class protestants they're left in a void and leaderless.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

They were all happy when they were guaranteed jobs in the shipyard, or Shorts, or Daddy's business, or the Police, or UDR or British Army. Whereas caflicks had ingrained in them that they had to work hard to get an office job.

That's my take on it as well. For years young protestants with a basic education walked into well paid jobs in the shipyards, shorts, cops and civil service with no questions asked.

When we were growing up it was hammered (literally) into you that you needed a good education to get a job and with the advent of fair employment legislation were in a better position to get jobs.

The attitude in some of these area's still hasn't changed that much and as the DUP and UUP don't really represent the working class protestants they're left in a void and leaderless.

Sure this is not unusual to Northern Ireland, I remember seeing a report reprinted in the Irish Independent about 5 years ago, showing that Leinster folk and in particular Dublin folk outside of the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown co.co area of the traditional County Dublin were far less likely to attend third level education than those from Connacht and Munster & Border Ulster (excluding Donegal, which bucked the trend in a negative fashion). The trend was similar enough for apprenticeships. The Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown areas of Dublin came first for 3'rd level participation, but from (Real) Traditional Counties in this order the top four were Galway, Mayo, Kerry, Cork, Sligo then moving on to the rest of Connacht and the rest of Munster. Followed by the South East, Followed by Cavan/Monaghan, followed by the Midlands, then the commuter belt and then County Dublin. For pretty obvious reasons the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown area of Dublin bucked Dubins trend, but for some bizzare reason Donegal bucked the West Coast trend to match some of the least affluent areas of Dublin. It was believed that people in Particular Connacht, and to a slightly lesser extend the Munster and border had to educated themselves to a higher degree (or get skills) to have a chance of earning a living in comparrison to those in close proximity to Dublin who seemed to fall into jobs. Before the Poles it was the Mayos who were the brains, brawn and skills that built Dublin.

(Of course some smart sod will try and use my poor spelling and grammar to try and disprove this    )

[Minder]

In fairness I am not sure what a politician can do if someone would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels, the parenting should be looked at. You can't blame politicians for everything. This report is also probably designed to get more money pumped into these areas.

[saffron sam2]

In fairness I am not sure what a politician can do if someone would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels, the parenting should be looked at. You can't blame politicians for everything. This report is also probably designed to get more money pumped into these areas.

I agree, what chance does a child have when his / her parents would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

In fairness I am not sure what a politician can do if someone would rather stand on a street corner sniffing glue or drinking cider than get A Levels, the parenting should be looked at. You can't blame politicians for everything. This report is also probably designed to get more money pumped into these areas.

I just wonder is there an Urban phenomenon working alongside the greater historical access to employment. As I tried to show with Dublin, Belfast a large'ish city can breed a contempt of education. Protestants in the North as far as I can see, have a greater percentage of their numbers living in, or close to Belfast than the Catholic community.

[Banana Man]

that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match

[Minder]

that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match

They weren't doing too many taigs out of a job in the RUC I would have thought.

[Ulick]

Sure this is not unusual to Northern Ireland, I remember seeing a report reprinted in the Irish Independent about 5 years ago, showing that Leinster folk and in particular Dublin folk outside of the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown co.co area of the traditional County Dublin were far less likely to attend third level education than those from Connacht and Munster & Border Ulster (excluding Donegal, which bucked the trend in a negative fashion).

I'm not sure your comparison is valid here. The report doesn't highlight a geographical but a community division i.e. those from socially disadvantaged nationalist background are more likely achieve academic success than children from socially disadvantaged unionist background who may only be living half a mile away. As Minder says it'll be used to lever more money for these areas but that doesn't deny there is a problem or fully address the extent of the problem. Both the Burns report in 2001 and the Costello report in 2004 acknowledged this but also that children from both nationalist and unionist working class areas are very much less likely to succeed in education than those from middle class areas. These are precisely the reasons why Martin McGuinness abolished the 11+ and why Caitriona Ruane and the Catholic Church are trying to end academic selection altogether. 

[seafoid]

The Protestant community in the north suffers from a huge brain drain of the best educated who go to university in Scotland and England . Many of them never go back. So you're left with a sort of leaderless community.   Protestant society in the North is still very class based innit. Susan McKay's book "an unsettled people" goes into the subject in depth. Even the supposedly mass market DUP is all about rank.

You can see it all in the quality of the Newsletter. It used to be a decent paper.   

[Ulick]

Seafoid I'm afraid the "brain drain" is a myth probably designed to explain away some of these problems or to account for the rising demographic of nationalists in further and higher education. In short there is no evidence to suggest that proportionally more Protestants than Catholics ever left for university elsewhere.

[Banana Man]

that's why the DUP are crying about 50/50 recruitment still in place in the PSNI, for too long, the lads just walked into cushy jobs with the RUC on a ration of 92/8, 50/50 reduces the odds too much, hence the squealing match

They weren't doing too many taigs out of a job in the RUC I would have thought.

that's my point minder, they had it handy walking straight in to the old RUC, that avenue is greatly reduced for them now and want 50/50 done away with