Paddy O'Rourke Out!

[mackers]

Mc Shane has no experience at senior level, managing minors is entirely different to managing senior players,

He managed Granemore seniors before taking the minor job.

Are you serious, you are comparing managing Granemore with managing a senior inter county team 

No I'm not......but you said that he had no experience in managing senior footballers and managing minors was different. If you had said that he had no experience of managing senior inter county footballers I'd have agreed with you.......

[Applesisapples]

Did Mickey Harte not follow a successful stint with Tyrone Minors by taking on the Seniors?

[Final Whistle]

Mickey Harte went from Minors to U-21s to seniors, enjoying success throughout-but Mickey was able to work with good footballers, intelligent, more than one dimensional footballers. Are Armagh programmed to do one thing and unable to change their course of thought to adapt to a situation? Kerry's/Tyrone's ability to spot a danger, adapt, nulify, obiliterate and carry on has resulted in them being a very successful team since the turn of the Millenium. Whereas Armagh, the sob story of how they could of/should of/would of continues.

On a positive note-its good to see Derry back in a decider. I hope Tyrone can upset the odds to set up a Tyrone Derry Ulster Final. Great day's craic.

[orchard 8195]

Mickey Harte went from Minors to U-21s to seniors, enjoying success throughout-but Mickey was able to work with good footballers, intelligent, more than one dimensional footballers. Are Armagh programmed to do one thing and unable to change their course of thought to adapt to a situation? Kerry's/Tyrone's ability to spot a danger, adapt, nulify, obiliterate and carry on has resulted in them being a very successful team since the turn of the Millenium. Whereas Armagh, the sob story of how they could of/should of/would of continues.

On a positive note-its good to see Derry back in a decider.

Harte also managed eireagle ciaran (excuse the spelling) seniors to an ulster club in 2002. including a few fantastic games against cross on the way to the title. Look i dont like the current management as most ppl dont. However lets get behind them and the team for the qualifiers. A few handy draws and who knows where we could end up.

[PAULD123]

McGeeney isn't flawless - Kildare have been beat in Leinster the past few years by Louth and Wicklow - but you get the feeling he can generally get that little bit more out of a team and he's still learning his trade.  IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources as Armagh, if we judge this purely in terms of underage and club success in both counties over the past 7 or 8 years. Armagh supporters do have a right to expect a bit from players who showed a lot of potential in their earlier years.

Firstly you can not judge the playing quality of the county senior sides based on underage and club success. You can only judge it on the quality of the county players themselves. So what justifies the sentiment that "IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources"?

You can not judge it on this championship as this championship isn't over and Kildare still have to play Dublin. But On last year's campaign, why do you think Armagh have better playing resources? You have Jamie Clarke and McDonnell who are true quality. McKeever and Donaghy are quality defenders and you could add Mallon for marking ability and Kernan for attacking potency (but he's not the best defender as most Armagh people recognise). Last year McGeeney had probably the best midfielder in Ireland - Earley, The best scorer - Doyle, an all star corner back Peter Kelly, plus you can add Lynch and Flynn to that.

Apart from those key players in either side Why do you think Dyas, Martin, Toner, Vernon, T Kernan, BJ Padden or O'Rourke are any more talented than the likes of McGrillen, Bolton, Morgan O'Flaherty, Flanagan, Kavanagah, Callaghan or Eoghan O'Flaherty? Is it just because you are not familiar with their names or is it that you actually have seen them play and think their talent is less? Because the two sets of players are very similar in talent, all are good county standard players without being spectacular.

The point is not to slag you off for your opinion, so please do not take offence, but merely to back up that McGeeney has failed to get a group of players promoted who contain quite a lot of talent, especially their all-stars Earley, Doyle and Kelly. They have had bad defeats in Leinster and got a bit of luck (like ourselves) to get as far as they did (Antrim should have put them out). POR is not a good manager in my opinion but McGeeney has yet to prove he is much better. At least with POR you were promoted and stayed up. McGeeny couldn't get Kildare near a promotion play-off.

[tonto1888]

I see it like this. In the past two ulster champoionship campaigns under POR we have had 2 good wins, giving a good platform to build from. However, we have failed to do so. This suggests to me that the team is incapable of putting 2 good championship performances together. The players ave to take some blame but as do, and more so, the management team.

[Armaghgeddon]

McGeeney isn't flawless - Kildare have been beat in Leinster the past few years by Louth and Wicklow - but you get the feeling he can generally get that little bit more out of a team and he's still learning his trade.  IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources as Armagh, if we judge this purely in terms of underage and club success in both counties over the past 7 or 8 years. Armagh supporters do have a right to expect a bit from players who showed a lot of potential in their earlier years.

Firstly you can not judge the playing quality of the county senior sides based on underage and club success. You can only judge it on the quality of the county players themselves. So what justifies the sentiment that "IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources"?

You can not judge it on this championship as this championship isn't over and Kildare still have to play Dublin. But On last year's campaign, why do you think Armagh have better playing resources? You have Jamie Clarke and McDonnell who are true quality. McKeever and Donaghy are quality defenders and you could add Mallon for marking ability and Kernan for attacking potency (but he's not the best defender as most Armagh people recognise). Last year McGeeney had probably the best midfielder in Ireland - Earley, The best scorer - Doyle, an all star corner back Peter Kelly, plus you can add Lynch and Flynn to that.

Apart from those key players in either side Why do you think Dyas, Martin, Toner, Vernon, T Kernan, BJ Padden or O'Rourke are any more talented than the likes of McGrillen, Bolton, Morgan O'Flaherty, Flanagan, Kavanagah, Callaghan or Eoghan O'Flaherty? Is it just because you are not familiar with their names or is it that you actually have seen them play and think their talent is less? Because the two sets of players are very similar in talent, all are good county standard players without being spectacular.

The point is not to slag you off for your opinion, so please do not take offence, but merely to back up that McGeeney has failed to get a group of players promoted who contain quite a lot of talent, especially their all-stars Earley, Doyle and Kelly. They have had bad defeats in Leinster and got a bit of luck (like ourselves) to get as far as they did (Antrim should have put them out). POR is not a good manager in my opinion but McGeeney has yet to prove he is much better. At least with POR you were promoted and stayed up. McGeeny couldn't get Kildare near a promotion play-off.

FFS drop the league shite will you. Nobody cares about the league and obviously is not a good indicator of how good teams are!

London alomost beat Mayo.
Armagh beat Down.
Derry beat Armagh.

I could go on. Its absolute nonsense talk. Fact is, McGeeney has brought Kildare hell of a lot further than what POR has managed to do with Armagh. McGeeney might have suffered shock defeats to Wicklow and Louth but POR has suffered two hammerings by Derry and Monaghan. The more I hear Down fans going on about him staying and it not being his fault, the more I want him to leave!!

[Armamike]

McGeeney isn't flawless - Kildare have been beat in Leinster the past few years by Louth and Wicklow - but you get the feeling he can generally get that little bit more out of a team and he's still learning his trade.  IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources as Armagh, if we judge this purely in terms of underage and club success in both counties over the past 7 or 8 years. Armagh supporters do have a right to expect a bit from players who showed a lot of potential in their earlier years.

Firstly you can not judge the playing quality of the county senior sides based on underage and club success. You can only judge it on the quality of the county players themselves. So what justifies the sentiment that "IMO Kildare don't have the same playing resources"?

You can not judge it on this championship as this championship isn't over and Kildare still have to play Dublin. But On last year's campaign, why do you think Armagh have better playing resources? You have Jamie Clarke and McDonnell who are true quality. McKeever and Donaghy are quality defenders and you could add Mallon for marking ability and Kernan for attacking potency (but he's not the best defender as most Armagh people recognise). Last year McGeeney had probably the best midfielder in Ireland - Earley, The best scorer - Doyle, an all star corner back Peter Kelly, plus you can add Lynch and Flynn to that.

Apart from those key players in either side Why do you think Dyas, Martin, Toner, Vernon, T Kernan, BJ Padden or O'Rourke are any more talented than the likes of McGrillen, Bolton, Morgan O'Flaherty, Flanagan, Kavanagah, Callaghan or Eoghan O'Flaherty? Is it just because you are not familiar with their names or is it that you actually have seen them play and think their talent is less? Because the two sets of players are very similar in talent, all are good county standard players without being spectacular.

The point is not to slag you off for your opinion, so please do not take offence, but merely to back up that McGeeney has failed to get a group of players promoted who contain quite a lot of talent, especially their all-stars Earley, Doyle and Kelly. They have had bad defeats in Leinster and got a bit of luck (like ourselves) to get as far as they did (Antrim should have put them out). POR is not a good manager in my opinion but McGeeney has yet to prove he is much better. At least with POR you were promoted and stayed up. McGeeny couldn't get Kildare near a promotion play-off.

No offence taken in the slightest Paul, we're all entitled to our opinions. Kildare haven't been within a whiff of challenging for Leinster in years. They've had little or no underage success to my knowledge (apart from a decent u21 team a couple of  years back) and nothing to note at club level. So where has all this talent been?  They've been pretty good at hiding their light under a bushel these past few years.  A lot of the Armagh players have been part of successful underage or club teams, winning medals and championships and the odd medal or two (Ulster and NFL) at senior.  Therefore, they must have had something to offer.  IMO McGeeney has got players like Kavanagh to glean the absolute max from their talent and that's why i'd say he's got the makings of a decent manager. I know that underage success and club success don't guarantee anything at senior county level but you need some pedigree or lineage otherwise we'd not be flabbergasted at the thought of Carlow winning Leinster or Waterford in Munster. 

[Donnellys Hollow]

A lot of sweeping generalisations there:

Kildare haven't been within a whiff of challenging for Leinster in years.

Not strictly true. While we have underperformed at provincial level ever since Dwyer left in 2002, we played in a cracking Leinster Final in 2009 that we really should have won.

They've had little or no underage success to my knowledge (apart from a decent u21 team a couple of  years back)

Kildare underage football was in the dark ages during the 90s - through no fault of Dwyer's I might add; the one time he was involved with an underage team he won a Leinster title. The structures have improved hugely in the years since then and we have produced several good u21 teams since 2003. The quality of our minor teams has also improved under Brian Murphy's management. In 2009 the Kildare minors arguably gave your All-Ireland winning Armagh minor team their toughest test up in Cavan. Kildare were bang there until Tommy Moolick scored an unfortunate own goal. The Kildare minor team last year was the best I've seen in twenty years and I personally think they may have left an All-Ireland behind them. They had a four game saga with Dublin (beating them twice but we won't go there!) but they were blighted by injuries and emotionally drained afterwards against Longford. They still should have won but Longford got two freak goals late on and they had no time to come back. I don't think the minor team this year is as good but they seem to be moving quite well so far. The schools scene in the county is also hugely improved. Athy, Maynooth, Clane, Kilcullen and Edenderry (backboned by west Kildare lads) have all had success in recent years along with the staple nursery of Patricians in Newbridge.

You may say that's all well and good, but we haven't really won much. However, the players are now coming through from these teams. This year Kildare have blooded Fionn Dowling, Tommy Moolick, Seán Hurley and Pádraig Fogarty (all straight from minor) and Conor Brophy who won a Sigerson All-Star for NUIM. Armagh have probably had more success in terms of silverware at underage but are those lads coming through or being given the opportunity? Are the likes of McVerry, Tasker and Carragher from their minor team of a few years ago involved with the seniors?

nothing to note at club level.

I don't know how success at club level can be used as a barometer for the prospects of the inter-county seniors? Bar Moorefield in 2008 and a few decent Sarsfields teams under the late Dermot Earley, few Kildare clubs have done much nationally recently. However, the county championship is fiercely competitive and the dominance of the two Newbridge clubs is not as pronounced as it was in times gone by. Clubs like St Laurences and Celbridge have emerged and there are now strong teams in every part of the county. I think the competitiveness of the county championship can only be good for the county team.

Without denying the quality of various Crossmaglen teams over the years, does their utter dominance not suggest a weakness in the overall quality of club football in Armagh? As an outsider I wouldn't know how strong or otherwise the likes of Dromintee and Mullaghbawn are. Would you say Crossmaglen's success has been beneficial for the Armagh inter-county team or would they be better served if there were a number of clubs competing at a similar level?

IMO McGeeney has got players like Kavanagh to glean the absolute max from their talent and that's why i'd say he's got the makings of a decent manager. I know that underage success and club success don't guarantee anything at senior county level but you need some pedigree or lineage otherwise we'd not be flabbergasted at the thought of Carlow winning Leinster or Waterford in Munster. 

You couldn't have picked a better example than Kavanagh. The lad was a hugely talented and successful underage player. Along with Michael Meehan, he was the standout player in the Jarlath's of Tuam team in the early part of the last decade and he played in two Leinster u21 finals winning one in 2004. He was one of the most skilfull lads I'd ever seen play underage for Kildare. Only last year he inspired Ballymore Eustace to a Leinster intermediate title. Now he has undoubtedly benefitted from McGeeney's tutelage but he has ample "pedigree and lineage" as do the likes of White, O'Flaherty and Smith.

My knowledge of Armagh football is probably as scant as your lads knowledge of Kildare. However, on the evidence of the championship in recent years there's not too many Armagh players that I'd take over their Kildare counterparts but naturally I'm biased. The whole debate here is rather pointless anyway because McGeeney agreed to another three year term as Kildare manager back in September. Unless they suffer an absolute aberration in the coming weeks, I'd be fairly certain he'll be patrolling the touchline for Kildare again next year. He has invested plenty of time and energy since 2008 in Kildare and he doesn't strike me as the type of man that could leave a job half done. Kildare should on paper be stronger next year with two All-Stars in Dermot Earley and Peter Kelly set to return from injury. McGeeney is also based in Dublin so Kildare is convenient for him both from a work and family point of view. I've no doubt that he'll take over the Armagh team at some point in the future but I understand there is still some bitterness from the time that Paul Grimley was overlooked as Kernan's replacement.

[PAULD123]

An excellent post by Donnelly's Hollow, Showing that just because you are not familiar with another team's players or club sides that you can't presume that they are inferior to your own. In Leinster it has been well accepted for years that Kildare were under performing given the amount of talent they had at their disposal. Donnelly's Hollow points out that the teams have pretty much equal reserves to draw on. In addition he shows that it is of no benefit pointing to successful under-age sides if those players don't come through.

Now here is the big one what exact difference has McGeeny made? See I would argue that what he has done above all else is instil a work ethic in Kildare, the same one that Armagh already have. The effect is that he has taken a similarly talented group of players as Armaghs, who were under-achieving, and made them work as hard as Armagh. As DH has pointed out, Kildare always had the talent but McGeeny has made them work harder to deliver it.

That is fine with a team that is under-performing through lack of effort but what happens if he goes to Armagh and he brings the one big trick that they already have? One thing that can not be levelled at Armagh is that the players are not dedicated. Armagh are up there with the top 4-5 most dedicated county teams in the country. How can he improve the work ethic of a team that already has as good a work ethic as possible?

It's arrogant to say that he would achieve more with Armagh because Armagh has better players. POR has had one championship where his team got put out by Dublin (a very tough draw), Kildare didn't have to play anyone of Dublin's class, so it's not comparable. The only comparable thing is the league. POR got Armagh up and retained that status. Kildare have failed 2 years in a row to get promotion. Before we talk about who has taken who further lets see how this campaign goes and what opposition the two counties face, lets see how far Derry go before condemning Armagh. Lets see how the Leinster semi-final goes on Sunday.

As I said I do not think POR is a good manager but I am just pointing out that Mcgeeney may be far from the perfect replacement.

[PAULD123]

Anyway the whole thing is a moot point. McGeeney isn't going to leave Kildare any time soon and I'm a Down man so it shouldn't really concern me. Also I admire the work done by McGeeney at Kildare and think that it sounds like I am putting him down, which I wouldn't mean to do. I just wanted to warn against instilling too much faith in his ability to transform another team.

But at any rate, I think I've said my piece and don't want to start an argument, or offend anyone. We are all entitled to our opinion and to agree/disagree with other's. Anyway that's mine but it wasn't intended to insult McGeeney, Kildare, Armagh or any Armagh poster.

Good luck to McGeeney at Kildare. I was really impressed with the Kildare supporters last year and have them as some of the nicest in the land in my opinion. And incidentally for all my slagging, Armagh ones aren't too bad either, far from the worst supporters in Ulster let alone Ireland.

[onefaircounty]

A very good post by Donnelly's Hollow.

[ck]

If there is a manager (bad or good) then people should look at their assistant manager for evidence as to why this is the case. POR has a poor backroom team by all accounts (Rugby weightlifter taking training etc).
Compare that to the "rising" teams. People in Donegal regard Rory Gallagher as the real secret (not McGuinness) and without doubt Aidan O'Rourke is the real deal under McGeeney.
Aidan O'Rourke for Armagh manager anyone?

[Armamike]

Why is it that the second man in charge is often seen as the brains of the set up?! A bit like the younger brother coming through is better again than the established older sibling.

Good post Donnelly.  I bow to your superior knowledge of your county men. 

[Applesisapples]

If there is a manager (bad or good) then people should look at their assistant manager for evidence as to why this is the case. POR has a poor backroom team by all accounts (Rugby weightlifter taking training etc).
Compare that to the "rising" teams. People in Donegal regard Rory Gallagher as the real secret (not McGuinness) and without doubt Aidan O'Rourke is the real deal under McGeeney.
Aidan O'Rourke for Armagh manager anyone?

Thats unfair. The manager puts the team together he takes the plaudits and the stick. A good manager recognises his own failings and brings in the requsite help. POR seems incapable of analysing games in real time and taking remedial action. If he brought someone in to help with this he might actually get some where. He has brought positives to the setup.