Paddy O'Rourke Out!

[thewobbler]

Winning something once does not give you a pedigree.

[Banana Man]

I take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do

is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.

Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest.  Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong

catch a grip ffs, nearly everyone on that Down team would have won all ireland medals witht he minor teams that won over the last 12 years, plus a runners up medal in the u21 final combined with a senior all ireland final appearance last year. Just because you's won a minor all ireland a few years back does not guarantee success, look at Down's AI winning minor team of '99, they toiled in the wilderness at senior level for years, you's seriously need to adjust your expectations.

The main man on that armagh AI minor success was a wee lad McVerry - where is he now???

[David McKeown]

I take the point that other counties have pedigree but with the exception of maybe Cork, Kerry and Tyrone I dont think any have as much consistent pedigree as we do

is there a great big bubble around Armagh whereby everything looks bigger in the inside and smaller outside? Yes, almost every player in the Armagh team has a medal of note. But this is the rule, not the exception, of top teams. Run through the Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cork, Kerry, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo and Galway teams and there'll hardly be a player without an AI appearance or medal of some description. Just because your county has a mammoth one minor title and one u-21 title, you guys think it's an exceptional feat. Row with the tide lads ffs.

Ill ceede that maybe Galway should have been included in my list of teams with similar pedigree but not the rest.  Since 2000 only Armagh, Tyrone, Cork, Galway and Kerry have won AI titles at U21, Minor and Senior level so to suggest that Derry, Down, Meath, Dublin, Kildare would have the same calibre in the squad is in my opinion just wrong

Armagh would struggle to beat any of the teams in bold......so bang goes your argument
PS....football didn't start in 2000 either

Please read my posts as that's exactly what I said and is my argument. For me at the minute Armagh are less than the sums of it's parts. The quality of player is there, the quality of play is not and for that I blame the management team. The reason I only went back to 2000 is simply because fellas playing on teams before that would either be unlikely to still be playing or would be at the end of their careers and unlikely to still be in their prime

[PAULD123]

David, The problem probably lies not with your good players (who are the equal of many top players) but in the additional players that surround them.

Cork have some star players, as do Kerry, Down, Dublin, Tyrone. But when you take the star players out of a team only Cork and Kerry still have serious quality. Armagh support players aren't as great as you make them sound. Take out McDonnell, Clarke & Clarke and I can't see any of the rest being wanted by Cork for the first team (maybe for the bench yes). Same with Down, take away Hughes, Coulter, Clarke and maybe Gordon and I can't see Cork or Kerry being jealous of what's left.

Armagh are though a top 10 side, deserve to be in division 1 and should be expecting to challenge for Ulster title. Far too early to talk about an All-Ireland.

I am sure you are not unrealistic but your message makes it sound like you are. Sounds like your billing Armagh as having the best players in Ireland and POR's job should be easy. It's not easier than any other manager in the top ten teams and the talent isn't better. Having said that he is a bluffer, uses the same excuses, can't get his defence working as efficiently as Down have with similar (possibly marginally less) talent. But he doesn't have a team which is nearly as talented as a lot of people here have tried to make out.

[naka]

Winning something once does not give you a pedigree.

wobbler you seem to have too much interest in all things armagh for a down man,
if i was in your shoes i would keep my powder dry until june.

[mackers]

Sounds like your billing Armagh as having the best players in Ireland and POR's job should be easy.

In fairness Paul, he's not trying to say that.
There's nothing wrong in a supporter looking for a manager to get the best out of the panel that's he's got. I would agree with you that underage success does not automatically mean senior success, but it does show that the manager has the raw materials to build a decent team. Few Armagh supporters think we can win the AI, and personally I wasn't expecting to beat Kerry last Sunday but what I do expect is for Armagh's forwards to play with a lot more cohesion that was on show in the Athletic Grounds.
Just because we are looking for our team to play better doesn't mean we reckon that we will win the AI!!

[thewobbler]

naka - not at all. I find this soccer style hounding of managers quite amusing.

Admittedly I've been guilty of it in the past from a Down perspective, but in my defence Down underachieved dramatically from 1996-2010, due in no small part to a continual managerial reluctance to change the style of football to something more organised and difficult to beat. I didn't expect Down to win anything during these times, but I did expect us to be competitive in every game and to come out holding our heads high if beaten by a better team. Instead we got routinely whalloped.

The current Armagh situation isn't the same. They're in Division 1, and will give anyone or everyone a game at any time of year. But with the playing resources available - particularly in the forward line - even a miracle worker won't make them All-Ireland winners. Armagh's best hope for these times, until more forwards arrive on the scene, would have been to retain someone like McDonnell as manager, who was at least pragmatic enough to recognise the team's weaknesses, and to make the most of its strengths. But you Armagh folk didn't like that approach. You'd rather convince yourselves that the players are there for fluid football, when they clearly aren't. Delusions of grandeur. Just be happy that you've got a good team, and you'll not be getting trounced by Sligo or Longford for a few years yet.

[naka]

naka - not at all. I find this soccer style hounding of managers quite amusing.

sorry wobbler its just that its not too often that i see a ballyholland man with a furtive interest in the orchard.
we know that POR is not going anywhere fast  but as supporters who are asked to donater mon to friends of armagh etc we need to see improvement, a forward line of say two clarkes, swift, stevie and say s kernan and brian mallon would have movement and should have some interchangeability, I dont see this developing under POR . I remember the ulster final in PORs first year with Down and realising then that he did not have to nous to close out a game in which you were 9 points up.
POR was not first choice for the gig at the time but i would have hoped that he would have learned from his time in charge of down, he hasnt and i think it is a telling point that if the down job came up next year and he was available most down punters wouldnt want him on board and he is a native of your county.
its not hounding of managers its realising that someone is making a poor fist of the cards he has been dealt with.

[naka]

naka - not at all. I find this soccer style hounding of managers quite amusing.

sorry wobbler its just that its not too often that i see a ballyholland man with a furtive interest in the orchard.







we know that POR is not going anywhere fast  but as supporters who are asked to donate money to friends of armagh etc we need to see improvement, a forward line of say two clarkes, swift, stevie and say s kernan and brian mallon would have movement and should have some interchangeability, I dont see this developing under POR . I remember the ulster final in PORs first year with Down and realising then that he did not have to nous to close out a game in which you were 9 points up.
POR was not first choice for the gig at the time but i would have hoped that he would have learned from his time in charge of down, he hasnt and i think it is a telling point that if the down job came up next year and he was available most down punters wouldnt want him on board and he is a native of your county.
its not hounding of managers its realising that someone is making a poor fist of the cards he has been dealt with.

[armaghniac]

thewobbler , you are not too far off there, in my opinion. Although I don't agree the McDonnell was quite the answer either. Armagh should be aiming to stay in Div 1, get to the AI quarter finals and give Ulster a rattle. We'll probably do the former and hopefully will achieve the other objectives. But just as Wexford 2009 was unacceptable, Monaghan last year was too. This year we have fought in most of each game at least, but we don't quite seem to move well.

[redandblackareback]

[/quote]
we know that POR is not going anywhere fast  but as supporters who are asked to donate money to friends of armagh etc we need to see improvement, a forward line of say two clarkes, swift, stevie and say s kernan and brian mallon would have movement and should have some interchangeability, I dont see this developing under POR . I remember the ulster final in PORs first year with Down and realising then that he did not have to nous to close out a game in which you were 9 points up.
POR was not first choice for the gig at the time but i would have hoped that he would have learned from his time in charge of down, he hasnt and i think it is a telling point that if the down job came up next year and he was available most down punters wouldnt want him on board and he is a native of your county.
its not hounding of managers its realising that someone is making a poor fist of the cards he has been dealt with.
[/quote]


Is the etc bit Paddy and Mike?? 

[mackers]

Don't start me about McDonnell..............POR, for all his faults, is a better manager than him. The performance against Monaghan in Casement was poor but I wasn't as depressed as I was after the Monaghan match in Clones the previous year or the Wexford match in Croker.
Negative football taken to the extreme....not starting Brendan Donaghy in the AIQF and then bringing him on at wing forward....Charlie Vernon being told not to move out of a quadrant on the field no matter where the ball was...Nippy Swift not good enough for the panel......leaving one of our all time greats sitting on the bench in the AIQF..........
Wobbler you are so far off the mark with that man it's untrue..........

[Throw ball]

Don't start me about McDonnell..............POR, for all his faults, is a better manager than him. The performance against Monaghan in Casement was poor but I wasn't as depressed as I was after the Monaghan match in Clones the previous year or the Wexford match in Croker.
Negative football taken to the extreme....not starting Brendan Donaghy in the AIQF and then bringing him on at wing forward....Charlie Vernon being told not to move out of a quadrant on the field no matter where the ball was...Nippy Swift not good enough for the panel......leaving one of our all time greats sitting on the bench in the AIQF..........
Wobbler you are so far off the mark with that man it's untrue..........

Calm down Mackers! Sure you know that Down people know more about Armagh than you anyway.

[Applesisapples]

Winning something once does not give you a pedigree.

Usual Down Sh1t!

[Applesisapples]

I have said before on this thread POR was not an exciting choice as manager but at least he started us of playing a bit more positive football, and he achieved promotion, the disappointing Championship was more to do with the negative influence from his assistants and yet Dublin where there for the taking. Lets see how he does with a full panel, and bear in mind also most of those minor and U21 players from the last couple of years still need time to develop. But I read with amusement the posts from Down fans who think that last years lucky run to the AI final marks their rebirth they could be in for a shock.