Paddy O'Rourke Out!

[Groucho]

How many of those lined out for Armagh on saturday night would make it onto Tyrone's team come championship?

Armagh are a very ordinary team at the moment and our expectations should be based on that fact.

[mackers]

I don't agree with giving POR the road at this point.

Armagh, in the later years of Joe Mor and the reign of Peter McDonnell, had become way too negative and there was a paralysis by analysis. We were incredibly hard to watch. In a way POR brought a refreshing change as he abandoned that mindset and allowed the players to express themselves. I agree, however, that he is naive and it is obvious we are going into games without any gameplan whatsoever. He has gone to the other extreme. He will have to address that if we are to achieve what this team is capable of. If he doesn't show some semblance of a game plan to get the best of this panel then his position would have to be reviewed at the end of the season.

As others have said, Armagh fans have to be realistic and set our goals at staying in Division 1 (which would be a hell of an achievement without a full panel of players to call on) and an AIQF. Anything after that is a bonus.

[fitzroyalty]

All well and good getting shot of POR, who is going to take the job? There's no pleasing some people. I would like to think that some progress has been made from when he took over in the form of promotion. He is working with a very limited squad for a Division 1/'top 10 in the country' side, clearly he wasn't tasked with picking it so people can hardly come on here saying he's tactically naive, he doesn't even seem to have a say who to pick. I agree sometimes the team look clueless and that can be directed straight at his door, but IMO the problems are deeper than that.

[DuffleKing]

All well and good getting shot of POR, who is going to take the job? There's no pleasing some people. I would like to think that some progress has been made from when he took over in the form of promotion. He is working with a very limited squad for a Division 1/'top 10 in the country' side, clearly he wasn't tasked with picking it so people can hardly come on here saying he's tactically naive, he doesn't even seem to have a say who to pick. I agree sometimes the team look clueless and that can be directed straight at his door, but IMO the problems are deeper than that.

Fitz - you're saying POR didn't pick the squad and he has no say in the team?

The reality is that POR is a poor manager - particularly at county level. He doesn't understand the modern game and how to get the best out of players not how to counter opposition strengths. He's also saddled with an assistant that is of no use in improving those weaknesses.

We find ourselves somehow in a position that is unfathomable - The manager is poor. The players didn't want him from the start and don't respect him in any shape or form. They also rejected his assistant. They are stuck with it because they kicked up too much of a stink with the appointment.

The only means of remedying the situation is through the county board and we know their record with backbone. There is no merit in jettisoning this management team now - unless McAlinden would be willing to take over after the u21 campaign - but change needs to come at the end of the championship for the good of armagh football.

[tevez]

Lets get a few things straight.
1. McGeeney was going to be part of the management team after Joe Kernan with Paul Grimley but they were shafted by the county board. McGeeney would love to be managing Armagh but has no trust in county board now which is going to be a problem in the future. He still stays in contact with a lot of the players and the players would do anything to have him in charge, but because of our useless county board he is not.

2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.

3. Maybe I was a bit optimistic saying we had to make all ireland semis, but there must be a major target. Do you think Kildare are targeting anything less thatn an all ireland semi. There is noone can say that Kildares set of players are far better than our own. I know from talking to a few of the players they would feel they are a better team than Kildare.

4. There are no great teams in Ireland at the minute apart maybe from Cork, that means that if you have a team who is trained right, who have a good gameplan, and that are highly motivated and have goood men on the line to see and make the changes needed quickly, then anything is possible. This is why I said all ireland semi should be the aim.

That man is certainly not POR. He can not inspire/motivate the team and he doesnt have the gameplan and is just not a great manager, which has been proven. Great player not great manager!

I dont think anyone can disagree with the points made here

[gander]

2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.

How do you know this?  its been said a couple of times now and was wondering is there truth to it

[whitegoodman]

Was stevie mac not one of the main men who was integral in getting POR the job last year??  Id love to know all these players that want rid of him, wouldnt be stephen Forker, Michael O'Rourke or Ryan Henderson by any chance?!?

It was also stated previously that POR is a complete failure as a manager.  Let it be stated that he has won more as a manager than the great one McGeeney

[orchard 8195]

Lets get a few things straight.
1. McGeeney was going to be part of the management team after Joe Kernan with Paul Grimley but they were shafted by the county board. McGeeney would love to be managing Armagh but has no trust in county board now which is going to be a problem in the future. He still stays in contact with a lot of the players and the players would do anything to have him in charge, but because of our useless county board he is not.

2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.

3. Maybe I was a bit optimistic saying we had to make all ireland semis, but there must be a major target. Do you think Kildare are targeting anything less thatn an all ireland semi. There is noone can say that Kildares set of players are far better than our own. I know from talking to a few of the players they would feel they are a better team than Kildare.

4. There are no great teams in Ireland at the minute apart maybe from Cork, that means that if you have a team who is trained right, who have a good gameplan, and that are highly motivated and have goood men on the line to see and make the changes needed quickly, then anything is possible. This is why I said all ireland semi should be the aim.

That man is certainly not POR. He can not inspire/motivate the team and he doesnt have the gameplan and is just not a great manager, which has been proven. Great player not great manager!

I dont think anyone can disagree with the points made here

Lets get a few things straight.
1. McGeeney was going to be part of the management team after Joe Kernan with Paul Grimley but they were shafted by the county board. McGeeney would love to be managing Armagh but has no trust in county board now which is going to be a problem in the future. He still stays in contact with a lot of the players and the players would do anything to have him in charge, but because of our useless county board he is not.

2. The players have no respect for Paddy O'Rourke and didnt want him. They think he is useless and know there going nowhere with him in charge.

3. Maybe I was a bit optimistic saying we had to make all ireland semis, but there must be a major target. Do you think Kildare are targeting anything less thatn an all ireland semi. There is noone can say that Kildares set of players are far better than our own. I know from talking to a few of the players they would feel they are a better team than Kildare.

4. There are no great teams in Ireland at the minute apart maybe from Cork, that means that if you have a team who is trained right, who have a good gameplan, and that are highly motivated and have goood men on the line to see and make the changes needed quickly, then anything is possible. This is why I said all ireland semi should be the aim.

That man is certainly not POR. He can not inspire/motivate the team and he doesnt have the gameplan and is just not a great manager, which has been proven. Great player not great manager!

I dont think anyone can disagree with the points made here

Agree with a lot of what you say tevez and i am certainly not a fan of por and mike mcgurn in particular, however Stevey for one seems to be a major fan of O'Rourke so thats one senior player that has the respect for him anyway.  In the past our county board could have been regarded as useless however i know Paul Duggan and a better Gael and more honourable man you will not meet. I also know for a fact that he would have a very good relationship with the geezer since teaching him briefly in his Abbey days. So if geezer was interested im sure something could be worked out between him and the county board.
However i feel this would be a stupid time (Mid Season) to change our management team, we also have some very average players on the squad at present particulary in the forwards category. This has to be taken into account when judging our performances this year. Hate to say it but we really need the cross boys and fingers crossed ronan back asap.

[fitzroyalty]

All well and good getting shot of POR, who is going to take the job? There's no pleasing some people. I would like to think that some progress has been made from when he took over in the form of promotion. He is working with a very limited squad for a Division 1/'top 10 in the country' side, clearly he wasn't tasked with picking it so people can hardly come on here saying he's tactically naive, he doesn't even seem to have a say who to pick. I agree sometimes the team look clueless and that can be directed straight at his door, but IMO the problems are deeper than that.

Fitz - you're saying POR didn't pick the squad and he has no say in the team?

The reality is that POR is a poor manager - particularly at county level. He doesn't understand the modern game and how to get the best out of players not how to counter opposition strengths. He's also saddled with an assistant that is of no use in improving those weaknesses.

We find ourselves somehow in a position that is unfathomable - The manager is poor. The players didn't want him from the start and don't respect him in any shape or form. They also rejected his assistant. They are stuck with it because they kicked up too much of a stink with the appointment.

The only means of remedying the situation is through the county board and we know their record with backbone. There is no merit in jettisoning this management team now - unless McAlinden would be willing to take over after the u21 campaign - but change needs to come at the end of the championship for the good of armagh football.

I think DM has been picking the players or at least recommending them, judging by some of the inclusions this year and last. This was my opinion last year and it has certainly been reinforced this year. I am not for one minute denying that there are significant weaknesses in the management; but that the blame for these is not solely on POR's door.

Someone mentioned on one of the other threads about a forwards coach, he got ridiculed by some mountainman from Down but there is certainly merit in that idea - our forward play is useless, the players just don't know how to attack as a unit. No one showing for the ball, no one running off shoulders, playing the ball into the corners everytime either relying on McDonnell scoring from a ridiculous angle or else someone else to put it wide...

That said I think we have good forwards but they've been given a lot of responsibility - MOR at CHF, he has talent but it's still a lot to ask for someone relatively inexperienced to play that position at the top level. Grugan - he's new, young and raw. A lot of pressure on him and bear in mind he has been playing away with the U21s aswell - he's flat out. BJP is only new, getting to know the rest etc and seemingly still unfit. So I can understand when our forward line is relying on Stevie so much and aren't contributing or playing as well together. I also acknowledge that it is POR's duty to remedy this, but we are missing Cross players and Clarke. When they return there will be more options and I expect things to improve.

[BarryBreensBandage]

All this talk about Armagh being crap - what do you reckon the 1st round score will be?
Do you seriously reckon Armagh will be trounced? Do you think Paddy O'Rourke or the players will let that happen?
I reckon three to four in it, but I honestly can't say which team will win.
Down stuffed Armagh last year in the Marshes, yet Armagh made them look very ordinary in the final.

[winsamsoon]

A lot of points raised here with regardes POR but very little attention and focus has been placed on the players. The bottom line is whether the players agree with the selection of manager or not they will sit down at the start of the year, look the man in the face as he tells them the plans for the year and all nod like dogs. If they don't want to play then they should have the balls to say and leave the panel there are plenty of other lads in the county that would give an arm and a leg for a call up.

I will say that there are lads on the panel that are very ordinary players that have been selected on name or past reputation POR is guilty of this but i guess it is a habit right throughout Ireland. I have watched Armagh over the last two years and it's true they have been in transition. Part of transition is improvement. When i think back to the day in Croke Park that Wexford beat Armagh and i look at the team today that is really 3 competitive games into the session i think we have improved in a lot of departments. 3  competitives games into the session and we have been beaten by decent Down and Dublin teams. We were in no way destroyed in these games and with the Cross additions and a bit more structure Armagh will be a decent enough side. Folks on here are throwing names about but the truth is Mc Alinden well underachieved with Armagh and Mc Geeney is elsewhere . POR is the man in charge at the moment and he deserves the respect that any gael should get for giving up his time and trying to steer our county to some sort of success. This whole negativity based on rumour and hearsay won't help Armagh in any way.

[Maiden1]

POR was not successful with Down (apart from Tyrone being very lucky to get a draw in the Ulster final in 03) but his club record is up there with most.  Ulster final replay with Burren, Castleblaney side that beat Cross by 10 points.  Benny Coulter has said O'Rourke is the best manager he ever had.
A lot of Downs failure with O'Rourke I would say is down to Pete McGrath, he was still bringing Micky Linden on as sub in 02 and was always trying squeeze 1 more year out of the 94 team.  O'Rourke tried to bring in a lot of new players and build the team from scratch, it didn't really work.

I don't know if O'Rourke is a tactical genius or not but he never seems to get much slack on here, even after winning the division 2 final and playing fairly well against Dublin in the championship.  They have had a couple of tight losses in division 1 so far and that is without the 2 Clarkes and Aaron Kernan, these players must be worth a few points in any game.  Surely the Armagh fans would be better getting behind the team and looking for 2 points against Mayo and Galway to stay up this year.

McGeeney seems to be the messiah at the moment but they lost to Louth and if they had lost to Antrim in the drawn game he mightn't have been considered such a tactical genius after a poor enough league, he might even have been available as the next Armagh manager.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/painful-return-to-armagh-for-mcgeeney-14721623.html

[John o connor]

Maiden that last post hits the nail square on the head 100% spot on

[ck]

Paddy probably isnt a BAD manager, he was always going to be under pressure going to Armagh from Down. That's not the issue. There is a much more serious problem there which has continued from last year. Players were not happy with Justin McNultys overly defensive tactics, they were also not happy the lack of forwards tactics, they were not happy with Mike McGurn (Strength coach) taking training sessions. Can you see where I'm going here?
Paddy just stands back and lets all this happen much to the frustration of the players. As a result there is now a serious lack of respect for POR. That is a major issue in any setup.

[ogshead]

There seems to be a lot of people speaking on the behalf of the players here