DUBLIN V ARMAGH sat 17th @ 5.00pm croke park

[mackers]

Armagh played a spare man at the back as well which was why they had the 2 man full forward line and can you imagine what Brogan would have done without the spare man being back in front of him???

Barry Cahilll started, Griffen is out with a knee cruciate injury for the year and Keaney I believe had a knock
[/quote]
That's a fair point, the number of times that McKeever saved other defenders was untrue, on Saturday there may have been some justification for a sweeper but we have been doing it most of the year. There's no need to be using sweepers against teams like Fermanagh for example, who have no stand out forward. Brendan Donaghy should have been on Bernard Brogan from start to finish IMO.

We lack leaders - many of you don't seem to understand this but the evidence speaks for itself. players fist passing backwards and then breathing a sigh of relief says it all really

It's time to blood the young talent. i know it's risky throwing young lads fresh out of minors in at the deep end but needs must i'm afraid.

I really don't buy into this theory, what more did you want the like of Ciaran McKeever and Steven McDonnell to do? They can't disguise glaring problems in our MF and HF line.

Next year's league is vital to this team's progression. If we can get Ronan Clarke fit and blood a couple of forwards out of  Tasker/Grugan/McVerry and McParland and stay up in Division 1 then we will be in a much better place. The policy of not playing the u21s in league football until they exit the championship will have to be sidelined.

A freetaker has to be found also as Stevie's percentages from 30 yards+ isn't good enough, I've a feeling that Stevie is only doing it until somebody better comes along and will be glad to see this coming. Tony Kernan is an excellent freetaker but doesn't give enough to us from play, for me Stefan Forker has to be brought in from the cold and given his chance at the freetaking.

The most disappointing aspect of the last couple of weeks is the fact that we retreated into our old negative style of play after threatening to throw the shackles off earlier in the year.

[Throw ball]

I would contend that McKeever only partly played a sweeper role. Dublin brought a forward back to cover Stevie and Jamie and McKeever played his position which created an extra man at the back. I would have preferred to see him mark Brogan and let Mallon ( or less so Donaghy) play the centre roll. McKeever would have been strong enough for Brogan and Mallons pace may have given some bite to the forward runs.

Mackers I would definitely agree with your assertion about the U21s. Admirable as it may be it will hold us back even more.

[illdecide]

Young Stefan Campbell got a short taste of isenior inter county football and he enjoyed it, if that lad is pursued and kept for next year at FF with McDonnell and JC each side of him it will be interesting. His free taking is very good and can only imagine will get better, the problem here is where will Ronan Clarke fit in as he would be an automatic choice for FF although i suppose either him or SMcD could play CF which would give us an attacking HF for once although going by recent management this will not be allowed. Like how dare we play with an attacking HF (sarcasm)

[Applesisapples]

Time to look forward to next year.

1 - hearty or mcevoy
2 - a mallon
3 - b donaghy
4 - p mckeown
5 - p duffy
6 - c mckeever
7 - k dyas
8 - j lavery
9 - k toner
10 - a murnin
11 - r clarke
12 - g swift
13 - j clarke
14 - s mcdonnell
15 - s forker

What about the U21's are there any more that could come through?

[armaghniac]

The thing is Armagh have some strong individuals. How collectively they are so bad is beyond me.

A comment (from a neutral) I would agree with. We have gone from a team which was more than the sum of its individuals (as any really successful team has to be) to one that is arguably less than sum of its individuals. OK we don't have the countries best playersin every position, but you work with what you have. Looking at Roscommon yesterday, a team we beat by 24 points not so long ago, they had one outstanding player Shine, but the whole team worked hard and showed a sense of urgency that was completely lacking in the Armagh performances.

[All of a Sludden]

Stevie definitely wont be coming back in 2011. Wont be made official until later in the year but he has definitely thrown the towel in. Hell of a player.

[INDIANA]

I don't think our footballers are much behind those in many county teams which are doing much better.  This has been the case since 2006.  The decline has been partly due to the loss of major players who cannot be instantly replaced and have yet to be fully replaced.

However, the major part of the decline has been due to the management of the team.  JK, PMcD and POR have not essentially changed the playing style/method while they no longer have the team from 99 to 05 which had the ability and strength to play to that style.  other sides have progressed by evolving the physical and defensive method used by Armagh during their heyday but the Armagh management has not moved in the same way.  Defence is always the first priority, if you can reduce the number of scores conceded then chances of winning are increased, if you mantain possession, the opposition cannot attack and you do not attempt a shot on target unless you are within 25m and in front of goal.  This has produced a team with a mentality which is epitomised by AK, he goes to his own 30-40 m zone, collects the ball and runs out of defence but suddenly stops after crosing the opposition 40 m line and toe taps the ball before hand passing it to some else.  The handpasses continue until someone breaks the defensive line which has now been established and attempts to score or more often the ball is turned over and the opposition breaks to score.  Armagh are at their best when this doesn't happen, not often enough they are able to easily score when the ball is moved quickly from defence to the inside line and the ball over the bar or in the net.

Current management are just continuing on from PMcD and JK with no idea how to make improvements to to even try to see how the system has evolved with Tyrone.  For many of the fifteen on the field for Tyrone at the throw in on Sunday, Armagh have an equivalent in terms of talent and ability but lacking in experience.  However, Armagh do not have a system of play like Tyrone in which every player knows what he must do and the role of each of his team mates and a management team who know exactly how the team works and how to make changes which will be game altering/winning.  In addition, Tyrone have also assumed the mantle of being unbeatable, unflappable and always playing to the whistle which has a devastating mental affect on their opponents, an advantage held by Armagh until 2006. 

Armagh can compete with the best again but we need a management capable of bringing fresh ideas and a system of play, a trainer who can deliver players with the bursts of speed needed to move the ball quickly rather than running into the tackle and a renewed confidence in the system and themselves.  POR does not carry all the blame, DM and JMN appear to have the say on the line.  i don't know where we go for new management but it is essential.

I think you're miles off the top teams. Miles. Any reasonable team can do well in Tier 2. But armagh will take 5 years at least before they'll worry the top 2/3 teams again.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Indiana I don't see how you put an arbitary figure like 5 years on a resurgence. Surely Armagh are only as far away as the time it will take to get players on the team which will vastly improve the side. My own view is that there's a possibility such players are only 2 or 3 years away (last year's u21s were as good as anybody else in the country in my opinion, the Minors were better than the rest).

Maybe these lads will have ability and character to meet the challenges posed by Senior football, perhaps they won't. But if they do, it may not take them 5 years.

[armaghniac]

Yep, that's what I thought in 2001 when we met Galway in Croke Park and everything that the two Brian's had worked on seemed to be dissolving away, taking Kerry to a replay in the previous year seemed a distant dream.  Yet, a change of approach by new management, real self belief and determination produced success.

Two things about 2002. Firstly, the squad believed in themselves and the new management. Secondly, the new coming was a work in progress right through the season, in the present situation we show some promise in March but seem to regress as time goes on.

[INDIANA]

I think you're miles off the top teams. Miles. Any reasonable team can do well in Tier 2. But armagh will take 5 years at least before they'll worry the top 2/3 teams again.

Yep, that's what I thought in 2001 when we met Galway in Croke Park and everything that the two Brian's had worked on seemed to be dissolving away, taking Kerry to a replay in the previous year seemed a distant dream.  Yet, a change of approach by new management, real self belief and determination produced success.

Come off it. That was a team that had been to a few all-ireland semi finals. Had a number of magnificent players. About 3 of your current side might make that 15 at best. Seriously you're miles off it. As I said earlier when that little wizard on your minor team last year is playing senior I'll start to believe you. Armagh suffer form the same syndrome we do. In thinking that physical size always wins.
Anyway how in Gods name did you turn Grimley down? Should have given him anything he wanted.

[bennydorano]

And Kildare seem to be doing alrite without him as well.  The Grimley nonsense needs to be put to bed sharpish.  I've stated before I firmly believe he'll take his chance when it suits him, he's shrewd enough to know when to come back - he'll be there in about 3 years when we have blooded our minors/U21's.  No matter what outsiders may think, i firmly believe the talent is there, it's about managing it correctly.  The style of play is the big problem, we promised a lot during the McKenna Cup and League and reverted to type when hardies came to hardies, that's the disappointing thing.  As I stated elsewhere today, there's no way on this earth that thats the type of football that POR wants to play, it was McNulty written all over it. That would suggest to me that POR is perhaps weak as the No1. 

O'Rourke deservers another year no matter what, hopefully he'll stamp his style of play on the team next season.

[Orior]

If McNulty and Murtagh was in charge, then I'd have expected there to have been a defender available at all times for a back-pass. But there wasnt and instead we had guys trying to run through tackles, and then being dispossessed.

[PatDaly]

Stevie definitely wont be coming back in 2011. Wont be made official until later in the year but he has definitely thrown the towel in. Hell of a player.

http://www.armagh-gaa.com/Orchard-TV/News/AUDIO---Dublin-0-14-Armagh-0-11.aspx

According to Paddy O'Rourke Armagh will get another 4 years out of Stevie McDonnell

[Orior]

Artane Boys doing their drumming bit last Saturday...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tvc4ayEmWw

[maddog]

Indiana I don't see how you put an arbitary figure like 5 years on a resurgence. Surely Armagh are only as far away as the time it will take to get players on the team which will vastly improve the side. My own view is that there's a possibility such players are only 2 or 3 years away (last year's u21s were as good as anybody else in the country in my opinion, the Minors were better than the rest).

Maybe these lads will have ability and character to meet the challenges posed by Senior football, perhaps they won't. But if they do, it may not take them 5 years.

Not being smart or anything but who is there from that u21 side that will / could make the breakthrough. Obviously being away from home the knowledge of u21/minor is limited.