Get ready to wave them flegs - Lily Windsor's coming

[Nally Stand]

I actually took it another way. Those men died for a 32 county republic, and a 32 county republic will be achieved someday, as soon as the majority of people in both jurisdictions on this island want it.

I think that in itself is a huge step forward compared to what those men fought against.

For now, I believe that the british monarch visiting, and being respectful, at a monument to those who fought so hard and so desperately against her predecessors' forces on this island, is a hugely significant gesture, and shows to the world that britain acknowledges the legitimacy of the nation of Ireland to have fought for it's freedom, and indeed to be free.

When both parts of the island are ready to reunite, I don't think Britain will stand in it's way, and I think the gesture yesterday affirms that which is basically agreed in the GFA.

But this is the thing, those who fought for freedom were not just fighting against her predecessors forces, but against her forces too. And you state that britain acknowledges Ireland's right to have fought for its freedom but somehow I doubt if that includes people who fought for that same ideal in the most recent century of occupation. I am all for improving relations with britain, but not at the cost of a visit which will alienate the families of so many of our patriot dead and not using methods which will be so divisive amd insulting to a large portion of the people. There is a time and a place for improving relations and having the british anthem played in a memorial garden for those who died fighting for something yet to be achieved is wrong. Once Ireland is united, I'd gladly go to the garden with her but not one minute before hand. And I am pro GFA, however that does not mean I regard Irish independence as a done deal. The GFA to me is simply a stepping stone towards the day when, in a united independent Ireland, the british monarchs can come and go as they please, unimpeded.

P.s. I appreciate your discussing it in a reasonable manner AZ, rather than have the attitude of rossfan, who in place of debate, resorts to arrogant, condescending put-downs

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

when i heard that the Queen was coming to visit i had mixed emotions on the issue and in many ways i was thinking what AZ was saying but at the same time asking myself is this too soon for such a visit. I sort of came round to the idea that it was being done to improve relations between the two nations and although not ideal i was willing to bite my lip. However watching the visit yesterday i must say i was appalled that ' God save the queen' was played at the garden of remembrance. I have no doubt this was a political move instigated by the Irish government to provoke a reaction from Sinn Fein and to try and quell their increasing support. To date SF have remained tight lipped on the matter. I have now changed my opinion of the visit and think the whole thing is being used for political gains and the greater political process in the North has taken a back seat. I see it as a kick in the teeth to SF who IMO are under the most pressure over this visit, they are literally caught between a rock and a hard place.
On the issue of the protesters, i acknowledge that there are elements that would'nt;t know their ass from their elbow and are intent on violence. But there are sections there protesting that have legitimate reasons for doing so. These issue are clearly close tho their hearts and the divisiveness of this visit has reopened old wounds. If my grandfather or family members would have been lying in the garden of remembrance i wouldn't have wanted the national anthem of the nation playing over them that was responsible for their death. This was an insult and should not have happened. The laying of the wreath as a mark of respect was acceptable this should have been followed by a few poems, and the Irish anthem.

On another note the cost of the security was a complete joke in a nation that is clearly in the worst financial disaster it has ever been. has they can justify this to voters in beyond me. PS what was the crowds like actually supporting the visit? From what i could see they weren't too high.

You think the FG/Lab govt arranged the playing of GSTQ to have a dig at SF??
Delusions of importance there I'm afraid. I'm sure they had enough to be concerned about with this visit, without trying to score points against the 4th most popular party in the state.

Damn those FF'rs sure it was those lads who invited her 

[Declan]

Well I just saw the shameless Bertie Ahern being interviewed on Sky News at lunchtime about the visit to Croke Park. Nearly fucked my cup of coffee at the TV - plenty of bemused looks when I let a roar at TV in the foyer of the building

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Well I just saw the shameless Bertie Ahern being interviewed on Sky News at lunchtime about the visit to Croke Park. Nearly fucked my cup of coffee at the TV - plenty of bemused looks when I let a roar at TV in the foyer of the building

Watched that the Queen and us, have a real dislike of Royalty, but looked at it in the same way I read what Páidi Ó Sé has to say. Two things that annoyed me most was that Irish restauranter living in London a Brit/Queen loving sycophant and that Bertie traitor Ahern. Thought the people on it tended to be too much Brit-loving lick arses or Brit-hating arseholes, I would of thought most Irish fitted somewhere in between. The London GAA team lads seemed to have the right balance and maybe the Priest in Windsor.

[armaghniac]

This whole thing is a bit uncomfortable and can easily be seen as premature. However in a row it sometimes isn't wise to hold out for complete vindication, even if you have the moral high ground.

[Rossfan]

  a visit which will alienate the families of so many of our patriot dead and not using methods which will be so divisive amd insulting to a large portion of the people.

A large portion of the people were alienated and insulted by the methods used by those who were fighting British forces , plus Gardai plus Irish forces plus Irish civilians between 1970 and 1994.

[Nally Stand]

  a visit which will alienate the families of so many of our patriot dead and not using methods which will be so divisive amd insulting to a large portion of the people.

A large portion of the people were alienated and insulted by the methods used by those who were fighting British forces , plus Gardai plus Irish forces plus Irish civilians between 1970 and 1994.

But that was not the case pre-1970 then no? 

IRA fighting your your county's freedom = goodies
&
IRA fighting for my county's freedom = baddies

Gotcha

[Hardy]

And I am pro GFA, however that does not mean I regard Irish independence as a done deal. The GFA to me is simply a stepping stone towards the day when, in a united independent Ireland, the british monarchs can come and go as they please, unimpeded.

I think this is the very core of the whole debate on the current status of relations, North-South and East-West.

I take the view that, per the terms of the GFA, Irish independence IS a done deal. The terms are clear. It's available as soon as the majority want it. In my view, that normalises relations between all interests here and in Britain. I can't think of a more suitable arrangement and the huge majority of us in the 32 counties agree. Therefore, I don't understand the basis on which people propose a ban on normal contacts between the two states as they pertain between any other two states.
My questions to those who see it otherwise are:

1. Are you proposing alternative terms?
2. If so, what are they?
3. In the meantime, are the 84.8% of us who voted for the present terms to be subjected to a veto on all details of our relations with the UK by those who disagree?

[Nally Stand]

And I am pro GFA, however that does not mean I regard Irish independence as a done deal. The GFA to me is simply a stepping stone towards the day when, in a united independent Ireland, the british monarchs can come and go as they please, unimpeded.

I think this is the very core of the whole debate on the current status of relations, North-South and East-West.

I take the view that, per the terms of the GFA, Irish independence IS a done deal. The terms are clear. It's available as soon as the majority want it. In my view, that normalises relations between all interests here and in Britain. I can't think of a more suitable arrangement and the huge majority of us in the 32 counties agree. Therefore, I don't understand the basis on which people propose a ban on normal contacts between the two states as they pertain between any other two states.
My questions to those who see it otherwise are:

1. Are you proposing alternative terms?
2. If so, what are they?
3. In the meantime, are the 84.8% of us who voted for the present terms to be subjected to a veto on all details of our relations with the UK by those who disagree?

No Hardy, Irish Independence is NOT a done deal and it is wholly insulting to say that it is and I would be hugely surprised if you held that view had you grown up in Tyrone. I say that as a whole-hearted supporter of the GFA. The GFA structures which are a stepping stone to Irish Independence are a done deal.

[Hardy]

That's great, NS, but it's just a statement with no supporting argument. I'm not interested in what you believe, but in why you believe it. Can you elaborate and, if you like, answer the questions?

And please stop with the ould shite about insults. If such a mildly expressed argument insults you, I don't care.

And, further, can you stop trying to claim an advantage of logic based on your address, now or when you were a child?

[Rossfan]

  a visit which will alienate the families of so many of our patriot dead and not using methods which will be so divisive amd insulting to a large portion of the people.

A large portion of the people were alienated and insulted by the methods used by those who were fighting British forces , plus Gardai plus Irish forces plus Irish civilians between 1970 and 1994.

But that was not the case pre-1970 then no? 

It was ... apart from the 1918 to 1921 period.
The IRA of the 1940s alienated and disgusted just about everyone in Ireland.

The Irish people through the GFA are now in control of their own destiny in accordance with the terms of that agreement ( the bit where the 6 Cos/ 26 Cos get to decide separately if they want an All Ireland political entity) that we voted overwhelmingly for.
Going by your earlier logic if we agree in future to have some sort of All Ireland Federation with some links between the 6 Cos and GB , you still wouldnt want the British monarch visiting the 26 Counties as we wouldnt have a 32 county Republic of the type you say Connolly , Pearse etc wanted.
We'll never have the type of one those lads wanted because we won't be allowed to set up an early 20th Century Socialist State and none of ye hoors will speak Irirsh to give us the ideal Ireland Mac Piarais wanted.

[Nally Stand]

That's great, NS, but it's just a statement with no supporting argument. I'm not interested in what you believe, but in why you believe it. Can you elaborate and, if you like, answer the questions?

And please stop with the ould shite about insults. If such a mildly expressed argument insults you, I don't care.

No supporting argument? To back up my claim that Irish Independence has not been achieved yet? Does it really need one? Look at a map, and you will see six north eastern counties which are divided from the rest of the Island.
Your own quote contradicts yourself:

I take the view that, per the terms of the GFA, Irish independence IS a done deal. The terms are clear. It's available as soon as the majority want it

If Irish Independence is already a reality, then what is the "it" you refer to twice as being available when...??

We have the ability to vote for Irish Unity, but that ability is not Irish Independence Hardy. Rather, it is a hard earned method of achieving Independence. It's like saying that Ireland was Independent in 1916 because we had the ability to take up arms for Independence. As I say, if you were a republican who grew up and lived in Tyrone, you would probably not take too kindly to being told by a Meath man that Irish Independence has been achieved.

As for your questions:

1&2: I don't look at it in a partitionist way. The British Queen has been to Ireland many times in her lifetime, and I'm well used to that. If that improves relations, then fine and well, but laying a wreath in the Garden of Remembrance and playing the British National Anthem there? Too divisive and in my view, and in the views of certain patriot dead family members whom I've both spoken to and read comments from, an unnecessary insult. British and Irish relations have room for improvement, but rather than divisive and hypocritical actions like yesterdays, would some form of practical co-operation not be much better? Would it also not be better if the British were perhaps to admit that they were an even an active protagonist in the conflict of the past 40 years here, rather than some sort of peace-keeping referee which at worst, maybe had one or two bad apples? Maybe then I would be more inclined to buy into the idea that visits like this will normalise relations.
3: I support the GFA. It doesn't state that to improve Irish-British relations, that the British Queen must visit the Garden of Remembrance and that no other methods shall be considered.

[seafoid]

At this stage Eilis II coming over is about business innit.
She's a long way from Eilis I.  Matriarch of a sad dysfunctional family as well.   

There was one thing I really noticed about Dublin yesterday. The poverty around the north inner city is as bad under Irish republicanism as it ever was.

[Declan]

The poverty around the north inner city is as bad under Irish republicanism as it ever was.

It sure is but sure they don't count as they are all junkies and spongers - Well according to official Ireland anyway

[Ulick]

Fergal Keane on BBC News 24 telling everyone the GAA emerged from 19th Century faction fighting. Twat