Muineachán V Ard Mhaca USFC

[Logan]

It doesn't matter who you have on if they can't run and tackle for 70 minutes. 

Too much weights and not fit to stay with the Monaghan ones was a problem - look at how fast they were.

It was fine against Derry who were poor and slow, but against a team like Monaghan who get a run going, there's nothing you can do but stay with them and Armagh couldn't.

[Hedley Lamarr]

Hearty

Mallon  Donaghy  Mckeown/Shannon

Duffy  McKeever  Finn Mo

Toner  Lavery

Vernon  AK  Swift/Dyas
J Clarke  Stevie  Henderson

Is a big part of the problem that none of the proposed half forward line play there regularly for their club, and two are converted half backs.
You need scoring forwards to win matches and unfortunately Armagh do not have enough at the moment.
Is Miceal O'Rourke not on the panel any longer?
I also think that Ronan Clarke's injuries are catching up on him....he will end up crippled if he does not watch himself......a fantstic player when fully fit.
Don't know who else Armagh could play in the half forward line at this stage.
I think Monaghan are a very good team and will be difficult to beat.   

 

[brokencrossbar1]

Vernon  AK  Swift/Dyas
J Clarke  Stevie  Henderson

Is a big part of the problem that none of the proposed half forward line play there regularly for their club, and two are converted half backs.

I agree Hedley but you have to work with what you have.  They can all score though and that is important.  But to score you have to play further up the pitch.  There were a number of occassions when Armagh got the ball in the half back line and all 3 half forwards were eithe level with or behind the ball!  That is simply unacceptable.  I play on the HF line even though it is only Junior level and the one thing that I keep shouting at the lads is that we need 2 of them on that line all the time.  Armagh under JK always had 2, generally Marsden and Oisin, but is one of them dropped deep John mac was there.  Swift should not go beyond the MF and neither should Aaron.  Vernon could drop deep but not into his own HB line.  No matter how good a forward line is if they are not getting quality ball from their own HB line/Midfield they will not score.  To do this Armagh need to compete in these areas all the time and that did not happen on Sunday until it was too late.

[rionach 4]

agree with Bcb1 and duffleking the players we have at the moment are the best. There may be room for maybe one or two others like Newtown's O rourke but thats all I can think of. Armagh is a small county player wise . rarely does talent get overlooked .

On some occassions maybe but not that often . I believe that the squad we have at the moment is the best in the conty whether it is good enough or not remains to be seen. Of the Armagh team on show on Sunday nearly all the team had either minor  u-21 or senior ulster or All-Ireland medals  bar maybe two.(Only Tyrone could match that) What had Monaghan ??  Not a medal in sight.. They had the experience though of a team playing together for now close on 6 years. They have  a few forwards that would grace any team in the country including Cork Tyrone or Kerry.

Mistakes were made all over the place on Sunday including on the line on the field and even I bleieve choice of venue. I firmly believe we should have went to Clones . Expectations would have maybe unsettled them.. Monaghan folks will tell you that Clones is definetly not their happy hunting ground (even though they beat us on the last two occassions ) .
I suppose to be fair to paddy and co it was a case of damend if you do damned if you dont.
But BcB and duffleking your are right this is a young team it will take time to sort out . I beat Monaghan would love to have  an all-ireland minor team waiting in the wings with another possible one (hopefully)
Baby and bathwater seems about right.

[naka]

what has barry shannon done wrong
he played against down and hasnt had a sniff since even though fm and am were cleaned out on sunday

what is the true story with R clarke--s hould we not just forget about him and allow him a year out of football to allow his injuries to heal, ng p

[BNAB10]

The next move will be to ban the shoulder charge altogether and I'm going to start watching real contact sports like hockey or something!!

Lot of knee jerk reactions going on here, in the cold light of day Monaghan are a more experienced outfit than this Armagh team. They are hell bent on getting an Ulster title that they feel they deserve and were by far the hungrier team. We are clearly a team in transition with a new management in place and we're playing without one of our two class forwards. We got promoted out of a very poor Division and the management need one if not two more years to develop us into a team challenging for honours. Divsion 1 football next spring will bring us on hopefully.

None of our much maligned HF line (the main source of our problems yesterday along with our CHB)  lined out in their positions on a regular basis for us before which especially in the case of Nippy Swift is an indictment of the previous regime. I would persist with Swift and AK in their positions and use Mackin as a sub. Our midfield was made up of two lads of about 23 who came up against a formidable and experienced pairing in Lennon and Clerkin. Vernon and Toner will be an outstanding pairing in a few years, ably assisted by Lavery (aged 23/24) who is a player that I didn't rate but he's much better than I gave him credit for. 

If we can get a handy draw in the qualifiers and get Ronan Clarke fit then we will achieve our aim for the year IMO which is to get to an AIQF. New teams and new management trying to change a style of play will lead to huge swings in performance like we have experienced this year. Hopefully the players will continue to work hard and keep their hunger and the management continue to learn from their mistakes.

23 is a fully grown senior inter county footballer. Bit old to be playing the youth card.

Rubbish..........at 23/24 McGeeney, McGrane et al were getting their arses whipped by Derry, they learnt from that, hopefully our lads will learn from this also. Players aren't in their prime until 26-28. The other thrust of my argument is that the lads of that age are only getting to play in their positions now (with the exception of Kieran Toner who has played a few years in MF at this stage).

Lavery looks like the only one with the required tools. Armagh are at a crossroads One wonders will that little wizard off their minors at corner forward last year be given a shot at it. Or simply be deemed too small. The latter I'd suspect. A sea change is required in Armagh football in my view. Talent has to supercede size. Currently in Armagh the latter is king IMO.

Have to agree with that indiana, it seems that POR places a lot of emphasis on size in his team, rather than a genuine scoring threat and a bit of flair (exception jamie clarke). It seems he is content to play midfielfders as half forwards, and IMO the team will never improve without 5/6 forwards who have the potential to get you at least 2-3 points per game. You only have to look at teams like Cork and Kerry; they do not rely on 1 forward to get all their scores. Their whole forward line can take a score and they are miles ahead of Armagh at the minute. The good thing is that the squad is young and hopefully they will produce their best in the next couple of years

[PatDaly]

On a desperately disappointing day for Armagh football Paddy O'Rourke revealed that Rónán Clarke's Achilles injury is much worse than initially feared and it now appears that his leg will be put back in plaster — effectively ruling him out of the remainder of the Championship..

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/orsquorourke-determined-to-respond-after-armagh-defeat-14832577.html#ixzz0qEQ6FaSi

[orangeman]

On a desperately disappointing day for Armagh football Paddy O'Rourke revealed that Rónán Clarke's Achilles injury is much worse than initially feared and it now appears that his leg will be put back in plaster — effectively ruling him out of the remainder of the Championship..

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/orsquorourke-determined-to-respond-after-armagh-defeat-14832577.html#ixzz0qEQ6FaSi

Bad news.


Massive loss.

[guevara]

Armagh are definitely a team in transition at the minute & I think their supporters need to accept this.
On very rare occassions will you get players lining out at HF who actually play there for their clubs. County players tend to be the main men for their club teams & fill central positions so it is silly to suggest that your HF line will actually be playing in that position for thier clubs.
A few years ago Armagh made a very conscious decision to start going for players who were big, physical & dominated their opponent. You cant blame Paddy O'Rourke for continuing that trend, as if we are being honest he had come in & wiped 7/8 boys off last years panel there wouldve been uproar.
When they were winning Ulster titles with bodybuilders nobody batted an eyelid but as soon as they get a tanking there is hysterics.
The fact is Armagh have lost some serious leaders over the past few years, McGeeney, McConville, McEntee's,McGrane, Bellew etc & none of the current crop outside of McKeever or McDonnell look capable of filling that void.
What bugs me at times & Ive already mentioned this on the Down thread is very few managers will actually pick the best 30 footballers in the County for their panel. Too many fellas that were a good minor or U-21 make it into Senior panels purely on the basis of what they have done in the past.
Club football is a much better measurement of were guys are currently at in terms of their ability as with the trial system you are guaranteed that its nothing more than a couple of games to keep the clubs happy that their guys have been looked at, when in reality all but 1 or 2 positions on the panel have been pre-selected.
It happens in every county & will continue to so you just have to get on with it!
What will define whether this turns out to be seen as a succesful year for Armagh or not will be their ability to bounce back & regroup & look at the qualifiers as a measurement of how far they have come under O'Rourke because last Sunday in my eyes Armagh were nowhere near as bad as the scoreline suggests!!

[donelli]

Appreciate the comments from the Armagh folk on here wishing us to win the anglo celt now... A good sign of the calibre the Armagh support has. We certainly hope to close our 22 year wait..

Monaghan won on Sunday in a lot of positions. We won with the experience of playing together over a few years, the options up front we have and their complete desire to win an Ulster title this year. The hunger was clearly demonstrated by McQuaid and D Freeman, who both temporarily quit the panel to re-charge their desire.

The sending off was a big factor in the final score-line but thought we were on top at that stage anyway. Sending off was at least a yellow, but an unfortunate red. Dont think there was any malice in it.

Putting Hughes in goal could have turned out to be the biggest stick to hit Banty with. Strange decision considering Hughes is one of our best perfoming outfield players. Felt for the sub-goalie as it appears it has been a 6 month waste of his time training etc. It's a short term fix but we needs Hughes playing outfield to win anything of note this year.

Sunday was a really enjoyable day for us. Days like that in the Ulster championship have been few and far between for us recently. Really hope we can carry on, reach the Ulster final and win silverware.

Muineachan Abu

[Main Street]

Have you never heard of this man's reputation as a ref before yesterday?

I heard of him but couldn't remember watching a game he reffed.  After 6 yellow cards for Monaghan and 2 substitutions made before I finished my glass of .... orange juice, I was brought me up to scratch with speed.
There were plenty of soft yellows, eg Freeman and McDonnell in particular, but others were deserved.
I would reserve final judgement until I see what it would take a player (already on a yellow) to do, before Sludden would flash a 2nd yellow.
Watching it on a tv, I can't tell what amount of niggly stuff there was, but it looked a sporting game with both teams very disciplined. The yellow cards did not unduly mess up the game.
The red card was a big one, but as I wrote, it looked all over an ugly challenge with a flailing elbow, until closer inspection revealed that the ref could/should have given the benefit of doubt to Mallon. The closer inspection was only really revealed by the camera angle from behind the Monaghan goal.

Sunday was an awful day for Armagh. But there are plenty of obviously talented players there and a couple of wins in the qualifiers will improve your mood.

[mountainboii]

The next move will be to ban the shoulder charge altogether and I'm going to start watching real contact sports like hockey or something!!

Lot of knee jerk reactions going on here, in the cold light of day Monaghan are a more experienced outfit than this Armagh team. They are hell bent on getting an Ulster title that they feel they deserve and were by far the hungrier team. We are clearly a team in transition with a new management in place and we're playing without one of our two class forwards. We got promoted out of a very poor Division and the management need one if not two more years to develop us into a team challenging for honours. Divsion 1 football next spring will bring us on hopefully.

None of our much maligned HF line (the main source of our problems yesterday along with our CHB)  lined out in their positions on a regular basis for us before which especially in the case of Nippy Swift is an indictment of the previous regime. I would persist with Swift and AK in their positions and use Mackin as a sub. Our midfield was made up of two lads of about 23 who came up against a formidable and experienced pairing in Lennon and Clerkin. Vernon and Toner will be an outstanding pairing in a few years, ably assisted by Lavery (aged 23/24) who is a player that I didn't rate but he's much better than I gave him credit for. 

If we can get a handy draw in the qualifiers and get Ronan Clarke fit then we will achieve our aim for the year IMO which is to get to an AIQF. New teams and new management trying to change a style of play will lead to huge swings in performance like we have experienced this year. Hopefully the players will continue to work hard and keep their hunger and the management continue to learn from their mistakes.

23 is a fully grown senior inter county footballer. Bit old to be playing the youth card.

Rubbish..........at 23/24 McGeeney, McGrane et al were getting their arses whipped by Derry, they learnt from that, hopefully our lads will learn from this also. Players aren't in their prime until 26-28. The other thrust of my argument is that the lads of that age are only getting to play in their positions now (with the exception of Kieran Toner who has played a few years in MF at this stage).

Lavery looks like the only one with the required tools. Armagh are at a crossroads One wonders will that little wizard off their minors at corner forward last year be given a shot at it. Or simply be deemed too small. The latter I'd suspect. A sea change is required in Armagh football in my view. Talent has to supercede size. Currently in Armagh the latter is king IMO.

Have to agree with that indiana, it seems that POR places a lot of emphasis on size in his team, rather than a genuine scoring threat and a bit of flair (exception jamie clarke). It seems he is content to play midfielfders as half forwards, and IMO the team will never improve without 5/6 forwards who have the potential to get you at least 2-3 points per game. You only have to look at teams like Cork and Kerry; they do not rely on 1 forward to get all their scores. Their whole forward line can take a score and they are miles ahead of Armagh at the minute. The good thing is that the squad is young and hopefully they will produce their best in the next couple of years

I'm not so sure that it's as simple as that. Outside of the wing forward positions, the players selected are there because they're the best the county has to offer, not because of their size. The half forward line has been a long term problem for us, and it seems in the absence of any stand out candidates to fill the 10 and 12 jerseys that O'Rourke decided to throw in a couple of big men. Even at that, Swift's footballing ability probably justifies his selection. It's easy to throw out broad, unspecific criticisms, but when looked at in detail, the number of positions where size has ousted footballing ability is very minimal.

[hurl4ever]

i am a big armagh man and was very dissapointed yesterday, not by losing but by the manner in which they lost. they really did throw in the towel and had no fight to get back into the game. this team is without doubt in transition, but there should be no excuse for pride and passion in the jersey, and i just feel this was an off day for armagh regarding their fight and hunger. have read through alot of the posts and disagree with a few things. kevin dyas is an exceptional player and to say that he doesnt care about armagh is just plain stupid, he needs to start the next game at wing forward. vincy martin is no where near county standard and shannon or young mekeown should be given the next start in defence. also what is in the panel at the minute is the best players in armagh at the minute...fact. yes, i have heard great reports about the minors of last year, grugan, tasker, king etc, but for god sake give them a chance to develop, before we take them into the county setup, they will be around for the next 15 years.

the referee was a joke yesterday, everything seems to be a yellow card, and many for nothing....on both teams. mcmanus, mone, toner, donaghy....all giving yellows for offenses that would warrant a tick never mind a yellow. and then the monaghan man who shouldered ak off the ball was giving a rightful yellow card.....so how can you compare yellow cards? the man hasnt a clue, he actually missed a couple of illegal handpasses....because he was looking to where the pass was going and not the man passing the ball...keep your eye on the ball you clown.

lastly to monaghan, fair paly, the team is in some shape, and playing good football, best of luck and hope you's win ulster!!!

[winsamsoon]

That is a general post that in theory applies to every county team. The reality is that most of it is way off the mark.
For example, anyone who thinks vernon is carrying an ounce of extra weight is ill informed.

I'd also love to know these club players who are consistently putting in performances that are being overlooked for county honours? trials are a complete waste of everyone's time and energy. The whole concept is flawed. You are better seeing and judging players in their natural environment with their clubs and aking informed decisions on their capabilities at the higher level. That is why there is a management team. In every panel, the final 8 positions will porbably always be interchangable with the next best 8 outside the cut off. management have to make decisions there on hunches or the type of player they favour.

Picking Dyas out as an example of someone being privileged is a nonsense. In particular, claiming that the lad should be punished for taking up the offer of a professional sports contract is a total nonsense. What about someone who goes off to find work in england or elsewhere... how long should their banishment from our county team then last? should it be a multiple of the time spent away?

If so many of these players are so bad, how is it now that 3 consequetive management teams have selected them after looking at the footballers in the county? do we really believe that all of these football men are so dense or that they have some sort of agenda to not include the best footballers in the county? that'd really help them do their jobs.

Pat - you just posted that forker should have started. given his form over the last 2 years (at what stage does a players form simply become his level?), he is a very lucky boy to get a county jersey at all.

Firstly it may be a general post but that still doesn't mean it isn't relevant to the current situation.

Secondly Vernon is too Heavy as is Lavery. This is not saying they are fat as muscle mass can also make you too heavy and decrease speed levels. Gaelic football needs explosive power particularly over a 20 yard area Vernon and Lavery and noticeable slow over this space.

Fair enough if you thinks trials are a waste of time then i would be happy if the players where looked at in their natural environment but this is not happeneing in Armagh. It is maybe happening for one or two teams but for every team in the county it is definetly not. I am not going to name players who should be brought into the panel because this will only further complicate the debate as people will agree and disagree accordingly. It is not an easy job being a county manager i am not going to start lol.

On the issue of Dyas, I would disagree with you and say that he is indeed privilleaged, as is any man who puts on a county jersey. This is a lad who went away from the Armagh set up to pursue another life for himself. Fair play to him for doing that and i am in no way criticising him for this and of course he shouldn't be punished for it.  I am merely stating the facts of what he did.However he should have to earn the right to be in a county panel. He should do this through the same channels as everyone else ie club performances. To date i haven't seen anything special from him or his club who seem to have gone backwards this year. So I wasn't slating Dyas (i actually think the lad had fantastic ability prior to leaving) but my gripe is that he needs to prove his worth. There was no talk of banishing anyone in my post.

I also didn't say that the majority of the players are bad. I said around 7-8 could easily be replaced with 7-8 better footballing players in Armagh. I stand by this statement as i have played club football and there are some tricky footballers out there who are being overlooked.

I also never said any managers where dense. On the issue of the three consecutive managers it is the GENERAL theory that when new managers take over they maintain most of the status quo that has existed previous to their position. My post called for a clean slate to be drawn this doesn't mean that current players should all be abolished if they are worth their salt they will certainly be selected. The county team at the moment isn't a bad team ceratinly not as bad as they showed on sunday but it is far from the finished article that will contest All Irelands.

POR in particular had the perfect opportunity this year, coming in as an outsider he had the perfect chance to see the club players in action. In all honesty what does POR know about Armagh club football? This is not a criticism but a mere fact. His background staff are mostly based outside of the county for the last 5 years so what would they know of emerging talents. Instead they go on the status quo, media hype and hersay from a lot of sources. IMO opinion the only way forward is to select a team with an open book. Not maintain the big man attitude but rather try to move football back to the basics and play players with natural ability . These players do exist in the county.

I disagree with Pat about Forker i think he is a decent enough player but he hasn't warranted any starting positions IMO.

Bottom line it is not my intention to slate the Armagh county panel, i follow them through and through and personally know some of the lads and how hard they train and i take my hat of to all of them. But there are a lot of other lads in the county who would jump at the chance to be where they are and i think we missed a great opportunity this year. MY own club have had to do it, at present we are having to play a lot of young lads as the older men have moved on. The clare Hurlers did it yesterday against waterford. If a team is going into transition then people must allow time for it to come good. Sticking with the same old tried and tested is sometimes not the answer.

[INDIANA]

The next move will be to ban the shoulder charge altogether and I'm going to start watching real contact sports like hockey or something!!

Lot of knee jerk reactions going on here, in the cold light of day Monaghan are a more experienced outfit than this Armagh team. They are hell bent on getting an Ulster title that they feel they deserve and were by far the hungrier team. We are clearly a team in transition with a new management in place and we're playing without one of our two class forwards. We got promoted out of a very poor Division and the management need one if not two more years to develop us into a team challenging for honours. Divsion 1 football next spring will bring us on hopefully.

None of our much maligned HF line (the main source of our problems yesterday along with our CHB)  lined out in their positions on a regular basis for us before which especially in the case of Nippy Swift is an indictment of the previous regime. I would persist with Swift and AK in their positions and use Mackin as a sub. Our midfield was made up of two lads of about 23 who came up against a formidable and experienced pairing in Lennon and Clerkin. Vernon and Toner will be an outstanding pairing in a few years, ably assisted by Lavery (aged 23/24) who is a player that I didn't rate but he's much better than I gave him credit for. 

If we can get a handy draw in the qualifiers and get Ronan Clarke fit then we will achieve our aim for the year IMO which is to get to an AIQF. New teams and new management trying to change a style of play will lead to huge swings in performance like we have experienced this year. Hopefully the players will continue to work hard and keep their hunger and the management continue to learn from their mistakes.

23 is a fully grown senior inter county footballer. Bit old to be playing the youth card.

Rubbish..........at 23/24 McGeeney, McGrane et al were getting their arses whipped by Derry, they learnt from that, hopefully our lads will learn from this also. Players aren't in their prime until 26-28. The other thrust of my argument is that the lads of that age are only getting to play in their positions now (with the exception of Kieran Toner who has played a few years in MF at this stage).

Lavery looks like the only one with the required tools. Armagh are at a crossroads One wonders will that little wizard off their minors at corner forward last year be given a shot at it. Or simply be deemed too small. The latter I'd suspect. A sea change is required in Armagh football in my view. Talent has to supercede size. Currently in Armagh the latter is king IMO.

Have to agree with that indiana, it seems that POR places a lot of emphasis on size in his team, rather than a genuine scoring threat and a bit of flair (exception jamie clarke). It seems he is content to play midfielfders as half forwards, and IMO the team will never improve without 5/6 forwards who have the potential to get you at least 2-3 points per game. You only have to look at teams like Cork and Kerry; they do not rely on 1 forward to get all their scores. Their whole forward line can take a score and they are miles ahead of Armagh at the minute. The good thing is that the squad is young and hopefully they will produce their best in the next couple of years

I'm not so sure that it's as simple as that. Outside of the wing forward positions, the players selected are there because they're the best the county has to offer, not because of their size. The half forward line has been a long term problem for us, and it seems in the absence of any stand out candidates to fill the 10 and 12 jerseys that O'Rourke decided to throw in a couple of big men. Even at that, Swift's footballing ability probably justifies his selection. It's easy to throw out broad, unspecific criticisms, but when looked at in detail, the number of positions where size has ousted footballing ability is very minimal.

Haven't said it on a whim. But i'm fairly well connected in Armagh. I said Grimley wasn't going there a long time before anyone else did and I also knew Dyas was coming home from Oz a long time before anyone else here knew about it- something I was ridiculed for saying here by some Armagh posters. And from speaking to people up there from the original post above it's a concern among them.
The Armagh  2002 version was a team of big men could play. Which is probably ideal. Rare enough you ever get that though. Your underage teams recently have been quite good but small by your standards. So it will be interesting to see over the coming years what way it pans out. Whether the fact they are small will be held against them.
I though Swift, Duffy and Clarke looked like real finds of the newer players. A lof of your others in my view looked slow and over-sized without naming names. in fairness Mc Gurn has said he feels a lot of them are too big and he's down sizing a lot of them. that will probably take 12 months. Mc donnell is back to his best since he stopped doing weights.
It was ironic on Saturday evening watching a small louth half forward with little or no muscle mass barrelling one of the minature bodybuilders from Kildare out of the way. Obviously Kildare don't do much in the way of core strength- I thought the same of Armagh on Sunday. Smaller monaghan lads were better at carrying it through contact. Found that surprising myself.