Muineachán V Ard Mhaca USFC

[goh4205]

Can't see the logic why people think Ronan Clarke is the answer to Armagh's problems.  For a start he has played no football at this level all year, bar 5mins against Donegal I think. secondly for a guy with his size and strength he spends to much time on the ground, seems like the smallest man on the opposing team could put him down and even if he was fit to play he's be hacked to death by the sandwich brigade as the lad wouldn't be up to speed at all no matter how good he is.

Armagh Gaels need to get real & start with the weed out and county board level, then start picking the best man for the job which is clearly not the case at present in respect of management & players.
The whole squad is full of average players, bar 6 or 7, until the clubs have a say or be allowed to select the management and not the county sponsor then this is the shite that appear when the cracks open as the did yesterday

[omagh_gael]

Well done Monaghan you totally deserved the win and I hope you win Ulster.

From an Armagh perspective lets hope we draw a couple of Handy games in the qualifiers (similar to Meath last year) and build up a bit of momentum, judging by yesterdays  performance we will be in trouble if we draw any of the big teams in the draw (Mayo,Kildare)

I wouldn't fancy our chances, even if we played ye in Inisturk.

It'd be a great boost for the winner. I'd say they're two fairly evenly matched teams, Mayo would be slight favourites. Maybe a big win is just what either would need to get confidence going though I always maintain that you want as easy draw as possible in every round. Winning 5 weeks in a row is a difficult task.

Armagh Mayo would probably be in Roscommon or Cavan?

Are the first few rounds not in the home venue of the first county out of the hat?

[DuffleKing]

Can't see the logic why people think Ronan Clarke is the answer to Armagh's problems.  For a start he has played no football at this level all year, bar 5mins against Donegal I think. secondly for a guy with his size and strength he spends to much time on the ground, seems like the smallest man on the opposing team could put him down and even if he was fit to play he's be hacked to death by the sandwich brigade as the lad wouldn't be up to speed at all no matter how good he is.

Armagh Gaels need to get real & start with the weed out and county board level, then start picking the best man for the job which is clearly not the case at present in respect of management & players.
The whole squad is full of average players, bar 6 or 7, until the clubs have a say or be allowed to select the management and not the county sponsor then this is the shite that appear when the cracks open as the did yesterday

What other cross players would u have on goh?

[winsamsoon]

HeArd today that the ref phoned both managers during the week with warnings concerning certain players?

On the issue of selection, within Armagh it is all wrong. This year was the perfect opportunity to wipe the slate completely clean and give all players a chance. Sticking with the same players year in year out that are under achieving will get you knowhere. I agree 100% that armagh need to select players instead of guys that are six foot and packed with strength. I am no fitness expert but some of these players look very heavy and sluggish. Vernon, lavery in particular have booties ffs. Players should be picked on ability not on size.

There are much better players in the county than IMO about 7 or 8 on that panel. There are too many on the panel because of their names and supposed potential whilst lads are consistently knocking in consistently great performances at club level and not getting a sniff. The players are also not getting enough club football. Armagh county team has become a separate entity not open to outsiders. The team itself needs brought closer to the clubs. Within my own club their would be a lot that wouldn't have a great opinion of Armagh . It is went all to professional and in the midst we have lost the true basics of the game ie scoring wins games. Very frustrating to watch Armagh over the last ten years because although they have some record in ulster they would have to seriously go down as under achievers.

A fressh approach is required throughout the whole county, trials should be held each year for new talent and not thrown in so as the management can say they had them. Going into trials with a panel already in your head isn't good enough. You find yourself actually focusing on certain people and ignoring potential stars. Also no players should be permitted to abstain from trials and be picked unless the reason is valid.   Dyas for example left his native game to go in search of greener pastures. He didn't really care about Armagh but when he returned he was thrown straight into the county team. Whilst other club players where completly overlooked. IMO Dyas has done absolutely nothing gor Armagh to warrant such privilages. Until the systemchanges I fear the tactics will remain the same and these types of debate shall be a regular occurance.

[pintsofguinness]

good post winsam.

[PatDaly]

HeArd today that the ref phoned both managers during the week with warnings concerning certain players?

On the issue of selection, within Armagh it is all wrong. This year was the perfect opportunity to wipe the slate completely clean and give all players a chance. Sticking with the same players year in year out that are under achieving will get you knowhere. I agree 100% that armagh need to select players instead of guys that are six foot and packed with strength. I am no fitness expert but some of these players look very heavy and sluggish. Vernon, lavery in particular have booties ffs. Players should be picked on ability not on size.

There are much better players in the county than IMO about 7 or 8 on that panel. There are too many on the panel because of their names and supposed potential whilst lads are consistently knocking in consistently great performances at club level and not getting a sniff. The players are also not getting enough club football. Armagh county team has become a separate entity not open to outsiders. The team itself needs brought closer to the clubs. Within my own club their would be a lot that wouldn't have a great opinion of Armagh . It is went all to professional and in the midst we have lost the true basics of the game ie scoring wins games. Very frustrating to watch Armagh over the last ten years because although they have some record in ulster they would have to seriously go down as under achievers.

A fressh approach is required throughout the whole county, trials should be held each year for new talent and not thrown in so as the management can say they had them. Going into trials with a panel already in your head isn't good enough. You find yourself actually focusing on certain people and ignoring potential stars. Also no players should be permitted to abstain from trials and be picked unless the reason is valid.   Dyas for example left his native game to go in search of greener pastures. He didn't really care about Armagh but when he returned he was thrown straight into the county team. Whilst other club players where completly overlooked. IMO Dyas has done absolutely nothing for Armagh to warrant such privilages. Until the systemchanges I fear the tactics will remain the same and these types of debate shall be a regular occurance.

I agree this is a great post but can you please identify the names of the club players who are currently being overlooked by the Armagh management team? Who in particular would you have dropped from the current panel? I don't like to single out certain players but Brian Mallon without even considering yesterdays performance has to be one of the most overrated footballers in Armagh. The starting full forward line on Sunday should have been Jamie Clarke, Steven McDonnell and Stefan Forker. One other fact about Sunday's game was the performance of referee Sludden from Tyrone which was an absolute shambles. His approach of making the rules up as he went along significantly contributed to a young inexperienced Armagh team getting extremely frustrated and eventually throwing in the towel. I've heard that Sludden is banned from referring some of the college football games because of his consistently inept performances as a "referee". Armagh should seriously consider appealing the decision if he is ever assigned to referee any of their games in the future.

[Tyrones own]

Not if they had played to now would Armagh have beaten that Monaghan team Pat
The Ref played little part in the outcome and to suggest otherwise wreaks of sour grapes!

[DuffleKing]

That is a general post that in theory applies to every county team. The reality is that most of it is way off the mark.
For example, anyone who thinks vernon is carrying an ounce of extra weight is ill informed.

I'd also love to know these club players who are consistently putting in performances that are being overlooked for county honours? trials are a complete waste of everyone's time and energy. The whole concept is flawed. You are better seeing and judging players in their natural environment with their clubs and aking informed decisions on their capabilities at the higher level. That is why there is a management team. In every panel, the final 8 positions will porbably always be interchangable with the next best 8 outside the cut off. management have to make decisions there on hunches or the type of player they favour.

Picking Dyas out as an example of someone being privileged is a nonsense. In particular, claiming that the lad should be punished for taking up the offer of a professional sports contract is a total nonsense. What about someone who goes off to find work in england or elsewhere... how long should their banishment from our county team then last? should it be a multiple of the time spent away?

If so many of these players are so bad, how is it now that 3 consequetive management teams have selected them after looking at the footballers in the county? do we really believe that all of these football men are so dense or that they have some sort of agenda to not include the best footballers in the county? that'd really help them do their jobs.

Pat - you just posted that forker should have started. given his form over the last 2 years (at what stage does a players form simply become his level?), he is a very lucky boy to get a county jersey at all.

[mountainboii]

That is a general post that in theory applies to every county team. The reality is that most of it is way off the mark.
For example, anyone who thinks vernon is carrying an ounce of extra weight is ill informed.

I'd also love to know these club players who are consistently putting in performances that are being overlooked for county honours? trials are a complete waste of everyone's time and energy. The whole concept is flawed. You are better seeing and judging players in their natural environment with their clubs and aking informed decisions on their capabilities at the higher level. That is why there is a management team. In every panel, the final 8 positions will porbably always be interchangable with the next best 8 outside the cut off. management have to make decisions there on hunches or the type of player they favour.

Picking Dyas out as an example of someone being privileged is a nonsense. In particular, claiming that the lad should be punished for taking up the offer of a professional sports contract is a total nonsense. What about someone who goes off to find work in england or elsewhere... how long should their banishment from our county team then last? should it be a multiple of the time spent away?

If so many of these players are so bad, how is it now that 3 consequetive management teams have selected them after looking at the footballers in the county? do we really believe that all of these football men are so dense or that they have some sort of agenda to not include the best footballers in the county? that'd really help them do their jobs.

Pat - you just posted that forker should have started. given his form over the last 2 years (at what stage does a players form simply become his level?), he is a very lucky boy to get a county jersey at all.

Better post than winsam's.

[quit yo jibbajabba]

Its like theres a "good post" competiton going on...and im not even from ar ma

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Last year (and for most of the previous 2 or 3 yeas) one of the best club footballers in the county was Mal Mackin. Now he's been brought into the set-up and given gametime, people aren't happy with him.

I'd see a fair bit of club football in Armagh I'm really not sure that there are too many players who stand out as being of real quality and capable of making the step up to intercounty football and haven't been given the chance with Armagh so far. The real changes in the near future will no doubt be the Minor squad from last year stepping up. I was at the St Pat's v Killeavy match on Friday night and Robbie Tasker and King from Killeavy were head and shoulders above anybody else on the pitch.

[Logan]

That is a general post that in theory applies to every county team. The reality is that most of it is way off the mark.
For example, anyone who thinks vernon is carrying an ounce of extra weight is ill informed.

I'd also love to know these club players who are consistently putting in performances that are being overlooked for county honours? trials are a complete waste of everyone's time and energy. The whole concept is flawed. You are better seeing and judging players in their natural environment with their clubs and aking informed decisions on their capabilities at the higher level. That is why there is a management team. In every panel, the final 8 positions will porbably always be interchangable with the next best 8 outside the cut off. management have to make decisions there on hunches or the type of player they favour.

Picking Dyas out as an example of someone being privileged is a nonsense. In particular, claiming that the lad should be punished for taking up the offer of a professional sports contract is a total nonsense. What about someone who goes off to find work in england or elsewhere... how long should their banishment from our county team then last? should it be a multiple of the time spent away?

If so many of these players are so bad, how is it now that 3 consequetive management teams have selected them after looking at the footballers in the county? do we really believe that all of these football men are so dense or that they have some sort of agenda to not include the best footballers in the county? that'd really help them do their jobs.

Pat - you just posted that forker should have started. given his form over the last 2 years (at what stage does a players form simply become his level?), he is a very lucky boy to get a county jersey at all.

I took from his post that perhaps Dyas doesn't deserve to be on the county team based on his football performances to date.
I'd tend to agree.

I don't think it has anything to do with what he did or where he went, more to the point - is he good enough or was he ever?

[brokencrossbar1]

A few weeks ago and we were all c**k a hoop and now we want players heads on stakes!  The reality is that the Armagh team is still a good side but are 2-3 players short of being a real contender for championships.  Also the big thing that is missing is real leaders.  When things starting going wrong there was around the middle of the field who was able to take control of things among the players and settle things down.  The reality is that they are still a relatively young bunch in terms of county football and are still a bit inexperienced.  There are players who started on Sunday are not up to the standard of county football full stop.  there are players who started on Sunday who are up to the standard but who did not play up to that level. 

The management made the right changes but they were 15 minutes too late.  Midfield was being cleaned out and needed things changed.  Martin was not up to it.  Mackin was not up to it.  These players may be honest to goodness lads but are they really anywhere close to the standard?  I thought Martin might be but I don't think he is. His game awareness is poor.  Mal Mackin has no end product if he does get the ball.  He is a good club footballer but there is a huge difference in what is needed at county level.

It is not all doom and gloom though as Stevie and Jamie seem to work well together and give a good balance in there.  If you had the other Clarke in there that is a serious FF line.  The full back line would be immeasurably improved by adding in either Paul McKeown or Shannon in place of Martin.  Mallon would need to pull his socks up ever higher as he has been struggling this year but Donaghy is fine.  He played against one of the brightest young forwards in Ulster in McManus who picked up over 30 scores in the National League this year.  He was that small bit sharper than Donaghy to the ball and that was the big difference.  The HB line is solid enough and Duffy is shwowng his true value to the team which ahs been missed for the last few years. 

Midfield needs to get their act together and Toner and Lavery need to start there.  Lavery may look very ungainly but he wins a world of possession.  He needs to be taught to catch and give though. 

The HF line was the big disappointment the other day.  Aaron was poor but he has been playing well so I would persist with him in their.  Vernon seems more effective in the WF role and is a great outlet for the kickouts(which I must add were very good from Paul, he has put a lot of his critics in their place in the last 2 games), Swift is good but needs to get into the game more.  He drifts too much and sometimes looked a bit weak on the ball.  The biggest failing they have is either subconsciously or tactically they play too deep.  The amount of times the ball was picked up in the pocket around the Armagh HB line and had to be fed across the line was unreal.  There were no outlest in the HF line as they were all playing too deep.  It is time to go for an attacking HF line because it showed that when you allow teasm to come onto you it is simply inviting trouble.  By all means have Charlie working with the kickouts but he and Swift need to hold their line to offer the target for the defence coming out.  You could also push Dyas in there for Swift to do the same role.

In the FF line without Clarke, I would go for Henderson.  He has shown he can win his own ball, take a score and create a score.  He is a better option than Forker at this stage and if you have him in one corner and Jamie in the other it offers a nice balance.

So for the next game I would go for

Hearty

Mallon  Donaghy  Mckeown/Shannon

Duffy  McKeever  Finn Mo

Toner  Lavery

Vernon  AK  Swift/Dyas

J Clarke  Stevie  Henderson

[mackers]

I just want to take back what I said (much) earlier on this thread about the sending off. I don't think any connection was made with the elbow - think it came up after impact. I think Woods nose got busted because his head kind of buckled on impact and his nose hit the top of Mallon's shoulder or collar bone area. Mallons two feet were on the ground at time of impact so it mightnot actually have been a free. It looked bad because Woods wasn't expecting it and had only one foot on the ground. May not have been shoulder to shoulder completely but was defo hip to hip and the rules say "side to side" I think.

That's just my take for what its worth.

I think you are close.
Mallon went to clatter Woods fairly, but he was reckless. Woods had jumped for the ball and just about landed and turned his head when his face was hit by Mallon's upper arm/shoulder.
Mallon has mistimed, the responsibility for that is with Mallon, not Woods.
Not reckless enough to get a red card but I can see why the ref regarded it as a red.

If it was Dessie Mone had done the clattering on Stevie Wonder's face, the Armagh boys would be spitting bile for 2 years, at least.
Us Monaghan folk are much more reasoned and forgiving.

Nobody's blaming Woods, the challenge was mistimed slightly and Woods got hurt, no doubt.  But a mistimed challenge should not lead to a red card otherwise lads will start to pull out of physical exchanges in case they get sent off over a timing issue. Wouldn't overplay the ref thing though, the red card wasn't the losing of the game but it did determine the margin of defeat.

Very unfair to start naming players that are unfit for the squad...........there were a number of disappointing performances but the lads NAMED on this thread are training several times a week and they are the best that the county can produce.

Kevin Dyas is a class footballer who has been hampered with a career threatening injury and is working his balls off to try to get onto the team. It's poor form to post that on here.

[mackers]

Great post BCB1, 100% agree............