Muineachán V Ard Mhaca USFC

[ardchieftain]

Could someone either post up the armagh county panel or direct me to where i can see it, please ?

[OverThePostsAWide]

POR in particular had the perfect opportunity this year, coming in as an outsider he had the perfect chance to see the club players in action. In all honesty what does POR know about Armagh club football? This is not a criticism but a mere fact. His background staff are mostly based outside of the county for the last 5 years so what would they know of emerging talents. Instead they go on the status quo, media hype and hersay from a lot of sources. IMO opinion the only way forward is to select a team with an open book. Not maintain the big man attitude but rather try to move football back to the basics and play players with natural ability . These players do exist in the county.

Same limitations could be levelled at Liam Bradley and his backroom team but he seems to have managed a fresh approach. So POR's choices are perhaps more down to his own judgement rather than the (potentially limiting) factor of his unfamiliarity with the Armagh club scene?

In fact, i would probably turn it on its head and say that POR's unfamiliarity (to begin with, at least) should have been an advantage! Fresh eye, no club baggage, no misguided loyalty to previous underage charges, etc.

[BallyhaiseMan]

I dont understand this criticism of Armagh players.
James Lavery when he came on caught 3 or 4 clean balls,and whilst he messed up a couple of times,if he had started,things may have been different.
People complaining Charlie Vernon is too heavy?
The man is about 15 stone at probably 10-12% bodyfat.
He is also mobile,Armagh just have to get a settled position for him.
I thought Barry Dufy was very good,he never gave up and his running and ball carrying caused Monaghan problems.
Brendan Donaghy and Andy Mallon coped aswell as anyone could against Freeman and McManus,forwards of that caliber are unplayable if your midfield is beaten the way Armagh's was on Sunday.
I still think Armagh will be a top 3 team within the next few years with the talent and physique they have available to them.

[bennydorano]

All this talk of weightlifters on the Armagh team is dung IMO, Vernon has been thon size since he was U16, what other weightlifters are dungballers like Indiana talking about??  A young team like that does need tightened up and I'm sure McGurn's sessions are tailored - for example I'd imagine he wants Vernon nowhere near weights, others need upper body strength training.

I also very much doubt there's half a dozen or more better players in the county - maybe a young lad with potential like McCumiskey will step up shortly, but these boys aren't overlooked - they are being waited for.

[Logan]

The next move will be to ban the shoulder charge altogether and I'm going to start watching real contact sports like hockey or something!!

Lot of knee jerk reactions going on here, in the cold light of day Monaghan are a more experienced outfit than this Armagh team. They are hell bent on getting an Ulster title that they feel they deserve and were by far the hungrier team. We are clearly a team in transition with a new management in place and we're playing without one of our two class forwards. We got promoted out of a very poor Division and the management need one if not two more years to develop us into a team challenging for honours. Divsion 1 football next spring will bring us on hopefully.

None of our much maligned HF line (the main source of our problems yesterday along with our CHB)  lined out in their positions on a regular basis for us before which especially in the case of Nippy Swift is an indictment of the previous regime. I would persist with Swift and AK in their positions and use Mackin as a sub. Our midfield was made up of two lads of about 23 who came up against a formidable and experienced pairing in Lennon and Clerkin. Vernon and Toner will be an outstanding pairing in a few years, ably assisted by Lavery (aged 23/24) who is a player that I didn't rate but he's much better than I gave him credit for. 

If we can get a handy draw in the qualifiers and get Ronan Clarke fit then we will achieve our aim for the year IMO which is to get to an AIQF. New teams and new management trying to change a style of play will lead to huge swings in performance like we have experienced this year. Hopefully the players will continue to work hard and keep their hunger and the management continue to learn from their mistakes.

23 is a fully grown senior inter county footballer. Bit old to be playing the youth card.

Rubbish..........at 23/24 McGeeney, McGrane et al were getting their arses whipped by Derry, they learnt from that, hopefully our lads will learn from this also. Players aren't in their prime until 26-28. The other thrust of my argument is that the lads of that age are only getting to play in their positions now (with the exception of Kieran Toner who has played a few years in MF at this stage).

Lavery looks like the only one with the required tools. Armagh are at a crossroads One wonders will that little wizard off their minors at corner forward last year be given a shot at it. Or simply be deemed too small. The latter I'd suspect. A sea change is required in Armagh football in my view. Talent has to supercede size. Currently in Armagh the latter is king IMO.

Have to agree with that indiana, it seems that POR places a lot of emphasis on size in his team, rather than a genuine scoring threat and a bit of flair (exception jamie clarke). It seems he is content to play midfielfders as half forwards, and IMO the team will never improve without 5/6 forwards who have the potential to get you at least 2-3 points per game. You only have to look at teams like Cork and Kerry; they do not rely on 1 forward to get all their scores. Their whole forward line can take a score and they are miles ahead of Armagh at the minute. The good thing is that the squad is young and hopefully they will produce their best in the next couple of years

I'm not so sure that it's as simple as that. Outside of the wing forward positions, the players selected are there because they're the best the county has to offer, not because of their size. The half forward line has been a long term problem for us, and it seems in the absence of any stand out candidates to fill the 10 and 12 jerseys that O'Rourke decided to throw in a couple of big men. Even at that, Swift's footballing ability probably justifies his selection. It's easy to throw out broad, unspecific criticisms, but when looked at in detail, the number of positions where size has ousted footballing ability is very minimal.

Haven't said it on a whim. But i'm fairly well connected in Armagh. I said Grimley wasn't going there a long time before anyone else did and I also knew Dyas was coming home from Oz a long time before anyone else here knew about it- something I was ridiculed for saying here by some Armagh posters. And from speaking to people up there from the original post above it's a concern among them.
The Armagh  2002 version was a team of big men could play. Which is probably ideal. Rare enough you ever get that though. Your underage teams recently have been quite good but small by your standards. So it will be interesting to see over the coming years what way it pans out. Whether the fact they are small will be held against them.
I though Swift, Duffy and Clarke looked like real finds of the newer players. A lof of your others in my view looked slow and over-sized without naming names. in fairness Mc Gurn has said he feels a lot of them are too big and he's down sizing a lot of them. that will probably take 12 months. Mc donnell is back to his best since he stopped doing weights.
It was ironic on Saturday evening watching a small louth half forward with little or no muscle mass barrelling one of the minature bodybuilders from Kildare out of the way. Obviously Kildare don't do much in the way of core strength- I thought the same of Armagh on Sunday. Smaller monaghan lads were better at carrying it through contact. Found that surprising myself.

It's got nothing to do with the weight you are - it's how you use it.

I think people have been sold a Pup on the weights stuff.
And you're wrong on Stevie stopping doing weights, it's other way round and on the core strength stuff too.

Strength is important but not at the expense of mobility and Armagh have no mobility of substance and much less than most Ulster counties.

Look at Tyrone and Monaghan, both very fast and fit - look at Armagh, slow and strong, laborious getting to the ball.

It doesn't matter how strong/big etc someone is if they can't last 70 minutes of full out movement and Armagh can't do that. Talk of toning players down or doing short 45 minute training sessions is nonsense too - after 45 minutes you see where Armagh were the last day - out on their feet - and after 45 minutes the last day they tired and a bad Derry team started to come back in the game it and only for the sending off and penalty, who knows.

Vernon shouldn't walk past a gym let alone go into one.
Most of the boys are strong enough - it's more running they need not weights.

The game has changed - but for Armagh it changed years ago.

The last time I saw that vision was Fermangh running rings round O'Rourke and Co. in Croker and back then the writing was on the walll - Armagh are too slow and not mobile enough.

It's not weights, it's mobility they need.

[mountainboii]

They looked mobile enough during the league. They were flying in some games, playing brilliant fast, running football. I don't know what's changed since then, it's the same players. Maybe they were just playing shite teams that let them run all over the place.

[Logan]

They looked mobile enough during the league. They were flying in some games, playing brilliant fast, running football. I don't know what's changed since then, it's the same players. Maybe they were just playing shite teams that let them run all over the place.

Of course they did - ground was heavy and they were training like loons for the winter, more than anyone else.
But you're right, playing sh!te teams didn't help either!

[Orior]

I also very much doubt there's half a dozen or more better players in the county - maybe a young lad with potential like McCumiskey will step up shortly, but these boys aren't overlooked - they are being waited for.

Plus, there is also a huge step up in commitment.

[Sam of the Sarsfields]

That is a general post that in theory applies to every county team. The reality is that most of it is way off the mark.
For example, anyone who thinks vernon is carrying an ounce of extra weight is ill informed.

I'd also love to know these club players who are consistently putting in performances that are being overlooked for county honours? trials are a complete waste of everyone's time and energy. The whole concept is flawed. You are better seeing and judging players in their natural environment with their clubs and aking informed decisions on their capabilities at the higher level. That is why there is a management team. In every panel, the final 8 positions will porbably always be interchangable with the next best 8 outside the cut off. management have to make decisions there on hunches or the type of player they favour.

Picking Dyas out as an example of someone being privileged is a nonsense. In particular, claiming that the lad should be punished for taking up the offer of a professional sports contract is a total nonsense. What about someone who goes off to find work in england or elsewhere... how long should their banishment from our county team then last? should it be a multiple of the time spent away?

If so many of these players are so bad, how is it now that 3 consequetive management teams have selected them after looking at the footballers in the county? do we really believe that all of these football men are so dense or that they have some sort of agenda to not include the best footballers in the county? that'd really help them do their jobs.

Pat - you just posted that forker should have started. given his form over the last 2 years (at what stage does a players form simply become his level?), he is a very lucky boy to get a county jersey at all.

Firstly it may be a general post but that still doesn't mean it isn't relevant to the current situation.

Secondly Vernon is too Heavy as is Lavery. This is not saying they are fat as muscle mass can also make you too heavy and decrease speed levels. Gaelic football needs explosive power particularly over a 20 yard area Vernon and Lavery and noticeable slow over this space.

Fair enough if you thinks trials are a waste of time then i would be happy if the players where looked at in their natural environment but this is not happeneing in Armagh. It is maybe happening for one or two teams but for every team in the county it is definetly not. I am not going to name players who should be brought into the panel because this will only further complicate the debate as people will agree and disagree accordingly. It is not an easy job being a county manager i am not going to start lol.

On the issue of Dyas, I would disagree with you and say that he is indeed privilleaged, as is any man who puts on a county jersey. This is a lad who went away from the Armagh set up to pursue another life for himself. Fair play to him for doing that and i am in no way criticising him for this and of course he shouldn't be punished for it.  I am merely stating the facts of what he did.However he should have to earn the right to be in a county panel. He should do this through the same channels as everyone else ie club performances. To date i haven't seen anything special from him or his club who seem to have gone backwards this year. So I wasn't slating Dyas (i actually think the lad had fantastic ability prior to leaving) but my gripe is that he needs to prove his worth. There was no talk of banishing anyone in my post.

I also didn't say that the majority of the players are bad. I said around 7-8 could easily be replaced with 7-8 better footballing players in Armagh. I stand by this statement as i have played club football and there are some tricky footballers out there who are being overlooked.

I also never said any managers where dense. On the issue of the three consecutive managers it is the GENERAL theory that when new managers take over they maintain most of the status quo that has existed previous to their position. My post called for a clean slate to be drawn this doesn't mean that current players should all be abolished if they are worth their salt they will certainly be selected. The county team at the moment isn't a bad team ceratinly not as bad as they showed on sunday but it is far from the finished article that will contest All Irelands.

POR in particular had the perfect opportunity this year, coming in as an outsider he had the perfect chance to see the club players in action. In all honesty what does POR know about Armagh club football? This is not a criticism but a mere fact. His background staff are mostly based outside of the county for the last 5 years so what would they know of emerging talents. Instead they go on the status quo, media hype and hersay from a lot of sources. IMO opinion the only way forward is to select a team with an open book. Not maintain the big man attitude but rather try to move football back to the basics and play players with natural ability . These players do exist in the county.

I disagree with Pat about Forker i think he is a decent enough player but he hasn't warranted any starting positions IMO.

Bottom line it is not my intention to slate the Armagh county panel, i follow them through and through and personally know some of the lads and how hard they train and i take my hat of to all of them. But there are a lot of other lads in the county who would jump at the chance to be where they are and i think we missed a great opportunity this year. MY own club have had to do it, at present we are having to play a lot of young lads as the older men have moved on. The clare Hurlers did it yesterday against waterford. If a team is going into transition then people must allow time for it to come good. Sticking with the same old tried and tested is sometimes not the answer.

Perhaps you were not in attendance a few years ago in the Championship when he broke from half-back to score a last minute goal for Dromintee against Clans in the championship to rescue the tie and secure a replay. Or maybe you missed said replay when, in almost identical fashion, he rifled it into the net after coming the length of the field again from half-back, this time handing Dromintee a last minute one point lead and dumping Clans out of the championship.

Failing that is it possible you also missed him captain an Ulster winning minor side who were unlucky not to go further, or in the same year maybe you didn't see any of the MacRory Cup or Hogan Cup finals that he played a huge part in winning for the Abbey.

[Puckoon]

i am a big armagh man

Are there any other kind?

[Armaghgeddon]

Mick McGurn has even said himself that Gaelic Football is about speed. He isnt bulking the team up in any way he wants to make them faster. Obviously to an extent strength is needed.

[Brick Tamlin]

im a Down man and as much as i enjoyed seeing ye get hammered on sunday i think there is a huge over reaction on here from the apple-munchers in general. No way are Monaghan that much better a team than Armagh, its not as bleak as some of ye would make out. Decent players dont become shite overnight, simple as. They got tanked, so what. It might be a blessing in disguise and could be the making of their season, who knows.
And if some of the supporters are feeling the pain after that defeat then you could be damn sure that the players and management are feeling it too, bucket loads more id wager.

[Armaghgeddon]

im a Down man and as much as i enjoyed seeing ye get hammered on sunday i think there is a huge over reaction on here from the apple-munchers in general. No way are Monaghan that much better a team than Armagh, its not as bleak as some of ye would make out. Decent players dont become shite overnight, simple as. They got tanked, so what. It might be a blessing in disguise and could be the making of their season, who knows.
And if some of the supporters are feeling the pain after that defeat then you could be damn sure that the players and management are feeling it too, bucket loads more id wager.

Ah dont worry about it, Down have been a joy to watch over the last 10 years 

In all honesty, I know it is only his first year, but if Armagh get tanked again I think he will only be given next season. As an Armagh fan I dont expect us to win a trophy every season but what I would like to see is an Armagh team who go down battling.They gave up and a lot of the blame is on the managements shoulders. POR looked clueless when we first played Down and were reduced to 14 men, and the same thing happened again. This is one of the things that extremerly frustrates me.

[armaghniac]

Being beaten is fair enough. Monaghan have taken a lot of Armagh's values (and their coach), worked hard and built a team that plays or each other to a strong system, this is great football when you get it working. They rightly have decided to give Ulster a lash and while getting to AI Quarters is all very fine as a target, history will ignore this but will record the first "new" county in 12 years to win Ulster. From a Down persepective this may not seem so bad, but Armagh have had the worst championship defeat for half a lifetime, we always put up a fight even if beaten. We  have won games we had no right to win because we had battled and weren't too far behind. We thought of winning Div 2 and beatng Kildare and Donegal well as good work, because these seemed good targets in February. But these counties are actually pretty poor and we lost to Down for the first time in 17 years!

[Brick Tamlin]

ever think that the standards supporters set is somewhat unrealistic and that the team just isnt as good as you think, or that times are changing and with it the pedigree of the Armagh team.
I mean you dominated on a few levels for a good few years there and had some measure of success but now its a different ball game and it might just take a few years until Armagh compete like they did over the last 10 years.