Bonnar wants two teams to be promoted

[EddieMerx]

Is it me or is the standard decling in most counties? Wexford, Offaly, Clare, Limerick, Dublin - not much between them all! Liam won't be going anywhere near these counties. The standard in Divison 1 and 2 has been pretty poor this league campaign! (due mainly to KK and Tipp not putting 100% in) You could replace Offaly, Limerick or Dublin with either Clare or Wexford and get the same results. Hurling needs more than just re-jigging of the divisions, grass-roots development needs to change in these Counties and this will take years.

[deiseach]

Is it me or is the standard decling in most counties? Wexford, Offaly, Clare, Limerick, Dublin - not much between them all! Liam won't be going anywhere near these counties. The standard in Divison 1 and 2 has been pretty poor this league campaign! (due mainly to KK and Tipp not putting 100% in) You could replace Offaly, Limerick or Dublin with either Clare or Wexford and get the same results. Hurling needs more than just re-jigging of the divisions, grass-roots development needs to change in these Counties and this will take years.

I wonder whether when Offaly made the breakthrough in 1980 did they have to endure people saying 'standards have declined'. They probably did. Standards obviously stayed low as they won four All-Irelands over the next fifteen years. And now they've declined even further as they themselves have declined. How low can we go?

[awfulynice]

Is it me or is the standard decling in most counties? Wexford, Offaly, Clare, Limerick, Dublin - not much between them all! Liam won't be going anywhere near these counties. The standard in Divison 1 and 2 has been pretty poor this league campaign! (due mainly to KK and Tipp not putting 100% in) You could replace Offaly, Limerick or Dublin with either Clare or Wexford and get the same results. Hurling needs more than just re-jigging of the divisions, grass-roots development needs to change in these Counties and this will take years.

Although I am not sure the standard of hurling has dropped I agree 100% with your other statement, there is very little between the "middle counties" this is why i think the current format is so unfair. Its unfair to Wexford & Clare this year, it was unfair to Wexford & Offaly last year and it will be unfair to either Dublin, Limerick, Clare or Wexford next year!!! If Offaly and Dublin were regularly beating Clare and Wexford id agree with the system but at the moment I would fear for Offalys chances with both sides!!! Yet we get to play in division 1 because we were lucky enough to win one game 12 months ago against an injury hit wexford side. Far from being fair in my opinion.

I dont know if people said standards were low when offaly made the breakthrough in the 80s / 90s...i dont remember anyone saying it when Clare made the breakthrough in the 90s.

Pray tell me who is making the breakthrough at the moment?? As far as I can see the All Ireland will go to either KK, Tipp or Cork with Waterford and Galway being semi final contenders. Now all of those five all have been appearing regularly at semi final and final stage over the last ten years or so.

Most people look back on the 80s and 90s and think of those two decades as some of the best in hurling because of the emergence of Offaly, Clare, Wexford & Waterford, With Limerick, Tipp, KK & Cork competing strongly.

[EddieMerx]

I wonder whether when Offaly made the breakthrough in 1980 did they have to endure people saying 'standards have declined'. They probably did. Standards obviously stayed low as they won four All-Irelands over the next fifteen years. And now they've declined even further as they themselves have declined. How low can we go?

Offaly were built around good underage teams so it didn't come from nowhere!! who am I insulting in my above statement because frankly most counties are in decline

[deiseach]

Offaly were built around good underage teams so it didn't come from nowhere!! who am I insulting in my above statement because frankly most counties are in decline

My point is that how can we tell if everyone is declining? Smacks of the 'in my day . . . ' arguments advanced by soccer pundits. I think the biggest problem in inter-county hurling is Kilkenny are too good. It's much more plausible that one team has soared rather than everyone else has declined simultaneously

[seafoid]

The current decline to whcih everyone on the thread seems to have referred is part of a historical process with its roots in the end of the cold war which was precipitated by the defeat of the Soviets in Afghanistan. Offaly's 4 all-Irelands were less of a trend than an outlier.   

[AZOffaly]

Exactly seafoid. There is definitely a decline in competitiveness since the 80s and 90s, but is there any more of a decline, comparitively,  between the 1880s, 1970s and 2010s?

Killkenny, Tipperary and Cork will share most All Irelands, as they have always done apart from a glorious period kicked off by Galway in 1980 and ended by Offaly in 1998.

It's just disappointing when viewed through that prism of relative parity in those days.

[awfulynice]

I dont want to fall out with anyone but I know I will!! I think there are far more competitive teams in the championship now than in the 80s or 90s. Perhaps not at the very top, but this decade has seen a lot of counties grouped into a "middle ground" where on their day they might challenge the elite.

I would class the elite as KK, Tipp, Cork, Waterford & Galway at this present time. Then you have Dublin, Clare, Limerick, Wexford and Offaly who will give most of the elite a game although will most likely lose in the end. I think there are possibly more teams now that can compete for provincial honours this decade than any other, and if we can bring on the likes of Carlow, Laois and Antrim things could get really interesting. That is where the GAA need to focus on most, get the underage structures in place to get these counties up to speed with the rest, With a bit of work Carlow could be there in the next 4-5 years, Laois and Antrim have strong hurling traditions and I just think a bit more underage developement will really bring them on. The real test will be to keep all  9-10 counties competitive whilst bringing on the rest. With the emergence of Football in Wexford and Laois over the last decade there is a possibility hurling could be pushed aside by the respective county boards to concentrate on the large ball!

[AZOffaly]

I dont want to fall out with anyone but I know I will!! I think there are far more competitive teams in the championship now than in the 80s or 90s. Perhaps not at the very top, but this decade has seen a lot of counties grouped into a "middle ground" where on their day they might challenge the elite.

I would class the elite as KK, Tipp, Cork, Waterford & Galway at this present time. Then you have Dublin, Clare, Limerick, Wexford and Offaly who will give most of the elite a game although will most likely lose in the end. I think there are possibly more teams now that can compete for provincial honours this decade than any other, and if we can bring on the likes of Carlow, Laois and Antrim things could get really interesting. That is where the GAA need to focus on most, get the underage structures in place to get these counties up to speed with the rest, With a bit of work Carlow could be there in the next 4-5 years, Laois and Antrim have strong hurling traditions and I just think a bit more underage developement will really bring them on. The real test will be to keep all  9-10 counties competitive whilst bringing on the rest. With the emergence of Football in Wexford and Laois over the last decade there is a possibility hurling could be pushed aside by the respective county boards to concentrate on the large ball!

I know what you're saying awfully, and you're right to a certain extent if you look at it say from Waterford down. However, real competitiveness is based on being in with a chance of winning the All Ireland, like Limerick, Clare, Offaly, Cork, Galway, Kilkenny, Tipperary, Wexford and others were all sniffing around in the 80s and 90s.

Now we have more games than ever, and less teams capable of winning an All Ireland.

But if you take the 70s, or 60s, then the pattern isn't much different that today. The pity is that counties like Offaly, Wexford, Clare and Limerick have let the glory of the 90s pass by without kicking on in terms of youth development.

[seafoid]

Exactly seafoid. There is definitely a decline in competitiveness since the 80s and 90s, but is there any more of a decline, comparitively,  between the 1880s, 1970s and 2010s?

Killkenny, Tipperary and Cork will share most All Irelands, as they have always done apart from a glorious period kicked off by Galway in 1980 and ended by Offaly in 1998.

It's just disappointing when viewed through that prism of relative parity in those days.

Tiocfaidh àr là eventually, AZ. Kilkenny will eventually collapse into mediocrity. Tipp are no great shakes really . Cork fade in and out. As soon as Galway win again everything will be rosy in the garden

[Zulu]

Ok Il start with Zulu, well my idea would be to have league semi finals every year of the top 4 in each division, the bottom two in each division play off for relegation, this would be guranteed 6 games (1 less than the current system. I would disagree with you saying there would be the "odd" upset. Any of the teams could go down under this system, take for example the cork strike, they would have been relegated, Take Tipp or Galway in the 90s they would have been relegated with Clare / Wexford / Offaly taking their place, These upsets as you call them are not upsets, Dublin beat Tipp, lost by 2 pts to Galway, Offaly lost by 4 to Galway, and both teams have been competitive in all games in division 1 this year.

I don't really understand that, so out of the six teams in division , four of them will make the semi finals and the bottom two will play off for relegation. That sounds like the league was pretty much a waste of time so with a lot of games not mattering much. There is far too much ringing off the hands about hurling, with lads coming up with all types of convoluted formats to 'promote' the game. You don't promote a sport by simply putting teams into the elite competitions, you promote and develop it on the ground and in the schools. And then when you have a team that is actually good enough to compete at the top level supporters will come out and the game gets a further boost.

The leagues are fine the way they are, the top 8 teams in the country are in division 1 and the next best are in division 2, that is the way it should be and if a 'traditional' county like Wexford or Clare get worse from playing in division 2 then tough tits, it should act as the motivation to sort themselves out.

[the waffler]

ffs we heard this shit  when clare were relegated mike mac said he wouldnt  play div 2 well everyone is there on merit wexford clare laois antrim carlow down westmeath kildare there is a gap between a couple of teams and the rest but  same apllies to div 1

[awfulynice]

Ok Il start with Zulu, well my idea would be to have league semi finals every year of the top 4 in each division, the bottom two in each division play off for relegation, this would be guranteed 6 games (1 less than the current system. I would disagree with you saying there would be the "odd" upset. Any of the teams could go down under this system, take for example the cork strike, they would have been relegated, Take Tipp or Galway in the 90s they would have been relegated with Clare / Wexford / Offaly taking their place, These upsets as you call them are not upsets, Dublin beat Tipp, lost by 2 pts to Galway, Offaly lost by 4 to Galway, and both teams have been competitive in all games in division 1 this year.

I don't really understand that, so out of the six teams in division , four of them will make the semi finals and the bottom two will play off for relegation. That sounds like the league was pretty much a waste of time so with a lot of games not mattering much. There is far too much ringing off the hands about hurling, with lads coming up with all types of convoluted formats to 'promote' the game. You don't promote a sport by simply putting teams into the elite competitions, you promote and develop it on the ground and in the schools. And then when you have a team that is actually good enough to compete at the top level supporters will come out and the game gets a further boost.

The leagues are fine the way they are, the top 8 teams in the country are in division 1 and the next best are in division 2, that is the way it should be and if a 'traditional' county like Wexford or Clare get worse from playing in division 2 then tough tits, it should act as the motivation to sort themselves out.

Well ok just leave the top two into the final then, god im not saying its 100% but its a  better structure than the current one. All teams in both division 1 and division 2 would be competitive in each match, Rather than the situation at the moment there are mismatches in both divisions. People against the change in structure feel its somehow "sour grapes" by Clare and Wexford for wanting the structure to change. But im an offaly supporter, I complained about this last year, and im complaining about it this year, and were not in danger of relegation. I will still be lamenting this system if it is continued into next year even if Offaly were to win the league next year I still think the system is wrong.

[Zulu]

What is wrong with the current structure? The best teams play in the top league, what more does a league need to do? As I've said on other threads we should make sure the league is a central focus of our year where all teams really try to win it and that can be best achieved by linking the league to the championship but that is a different story and one that won't happen for the foreseeable future.

[slow corner back]

Nothing is wrong with the current leagues. Clare, who Mike Mac proudly claimed would walk Div 2 have drawn with Wexford and only beat Antrim, Laois and Carlow by less than a puck of the ball. If that does not mean the league is competitive I do not know what does. As someone said earlier if Wexford were good enough for Div 1 they would win Div 2. The fact they are struggling to get out of the division proves they are not much better than those in it.