Limerick hurlers

[Zulu]

The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.

There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.

I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.

[Bing Crosby .]

The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.

There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.

I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.

I agree with you for what you didn't say , that management is a younger man's game but when players start to dictate I tend to get turned off straight away . Let Justin build a team and see what happens . I don't think people should be making a big deal out of this . 

[Zulu]

The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.

There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.

I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.

I agree with you for what you didn't say , that management is a younger man's game but when players start to dictate I tend to get turned off straight away . Let Justin build a team and see what happens . I don't think people should be making a big deal out of this .

I don't have a problem with players voicing their opinion, their not getting paid and they shouldn't have to suffer in scilence. But they obviously can't dictate willy nilly what goes on either, and they have to be stepping up to the plate themselves, something that neither the Limerick or Clare squads have necessarily done in years gone by. However, as far as I know only two Limerick players have walked away from the panel after Justins cull, though more will follow so in essence they have done what they are entitled to do. If people think Justin can continue with the panel that will be left then so be it, we'll have to see how they get on. At the momenet Justin did what he is entitled to do, pick a panel, and the players did what they are entitled to do, walk away from it if they don't like what they see.

[Bing Crosby .]

The real issue Zulu is that a lot of managers at the top of the game come from a different era. There are very few managers club/county in their 60's who are in touch with modern youth culture.
But there are also the element of county team players who won't accept responsibility for their performances and simply blame the manager and also won't compromise their social lives in pursuit of trying to be successful.

There are a lot of amateurs out there in minority sports who train 5 days a week and don't get any of the perks GAA playrs get.

I agree, it is a two way street and Limerick hurlers have undoubtedly failed to meet the standards required of IC players in the recent past but I had heard that many players weren't happy with Justins training during the summer. And I know the Waterford players weren't happy with his tactical nous so if he doesn't understand physical preparation and isn't tactically the best he really shouldn't be an IC manager. Likewise Mike Mac, who seems to think training is running up and down hills on the morning of matches. I'm not saying the players are right here as, unlike the Cork situation, I don't think anyone has purposely done something to harm their IC set up. But I do think CB's now need to set the bar higher and men like Justin McCarthy or other ex-IC players need to realize unless they have the expertise that training needs to be done by others and they need to inform themselves on tactics etc. Theses are different times and harking back to a day when ex-IC players got the job and did what was done in there time are long gone so CB's and managers need to get up to speed or these claches will become more regular.

I agree with you for what you didn't say , that management is a younger man's game but when players start to dictate I tend to get turned off straight away . Let Justin build a team and see what happens . I don't think people should be making a big deal out of this .

At the momenet Justin did what he is entitled to do, pick a panel, and the players did what they are entitled to do, walk away from it if they don't like what they see.

You're spot on there .

[theskull1]

At the momenet Justin did what he is entitled to do, pick a panel, and the players did what they are entitled to do, walk away from it if they don't like what they see.

You're spot on there .

Agreed.

If justin binned twelve players but then made broad brush comments in the media ( I don't know what has been said to be honest) which were only meant for a few of those 12 then I can see why that would seriously piss some of the players off. Sounds like he could have got away with his decisions if he'd have communicated better with those involved as well as the remaining panelists

[orangeman]

When will IC players start looking in the mirror?

Sunday November 08 2009

T his time of year is dangerous for the GAA. Players have nothing to do but plot for the future and the first thing they train their guns on is the manager. It is the new target for all dissatisfaction. If a team loses, the manager gets the blame; when they win, the players have pulled it off.

Limerick and Clare hurlers have been added to the disaffected ranks. In Clare, the players want the manager to go while in Limerick the jury is still out on what they want. Players should be very careful for what they wish for in case it comes true. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

There are many GAA administrators who would like to blame all of this on Cork. When the players there took on what was perceived to be the most powerful county board and won, it emboldened the rest of the country. In reality, it is a no contest. The players have all the power but with that power comes many responsibilities and in some cases it is not used either wisely or well. If players decide they don't want a manager, then it is game, set and match to the players. But in doing that they can create a bigger mess than what they started out with.

A manager without the support of his players is a dead man walking and is better off away from such a scene. Yet I wonder how often is player unrest fermented by those whose private gripes about being dropped or substituted is then taken to a new level?

It then becomes a 'shaft the manager' issue with the new boss soon becoming the bogeyman when he does exactly the same. Counties, and indeed clubs, are full of small-minded, petty individuals who can't face up to the fact that they are useless articles on the pitch and a general annoyance off it. Not the sort to follow into a dispute with anyone.

So the Cork revolution is not for export around the country. The big difference between the Rebels and what is happening elsewhere is that they had a proven pedigree of winning. They knew exactly how to go about it and were not willing to compromise on standards. That is the way it should be. However, a lot of other counties are putting the cart before the horse. They demand change, but are not performing on the pitch.

Players could argue the very opposite and say they have no chance of winning anything because of poor management. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? And who knows best about picking managers, the players or the county board?

Over the last few years there have been rows over the selection of managers or between managers and players in Cork, Limerick, Offaly, Clare, Donegal, Down, Armagh, Meath and Cavan. This list is not exhaustive either as many stabbings never get to the media. In Ulster, old tribal loyalties have broken down completely when it comes to taking management positions outside their own counties; it is a case of Ulster saying yes, yes, yes. In Monaghan, Down and Armagh, the movement of personnel across county boundaries this year has been unprecedented, although it can only be a healthy development. The idea of not moving outside some artificial line on a map is well outdated. But this movement has left bad feeling too as others have been caught in the crossfire.

When players are asked who they want when it comes to managing a team, they often have not worked out things beyond getting rid of the man in position. It must have come as some surprise to those who have had Mick O'Dwyer that instead of having some new scientific model of playing football, he went back to tried-and-trusted methods, most of it based on playing football. And some of these methods are what players have probably rebelled against with other managers.

If Brian Cody, Jack O'Connor or Mickey Harte went to some other county and preached a simple message of hard work, self-sacrifice and co-operation, players would probably suspect they were holding something back.

It gets back to whether it is the players or the management who are most important in getting success. There is no doubt in my mind that the catalyst for change and All-Ireland wins came in Meath because of Sean Boylan.

There are other counties who might claim they won things despite the management, not because of them. This always seemed to me to be a very small-minded and mean-spirited way to look at success. Winning at the top level is dependent on a thousand little things going right. For want of a nail the war was lost.

Right now we are seeing the old and new worlds of the GAA colliding. Players fresh out of third-level colleges bursting with new ideas and an old-style administration structure which appoints managers who often find little

favour with players. When that management group run their course, the circus starts again.

Yet in all of this there is a suspension of reality. The majority of football counties have no chance of winning the All-Ireland while hurling is a three- or four-horse race -- at best. So players' frustrations with management is in a way misdirected. Of course they can't just throw in the towel but many are swimming against a raging tide and no change of management will work.

At club level, the problem of player unrest is just as prevalent. The normal approach now is to demand an outside manager who comes at a price from €100 a night upwards in many cases.

Eventually, the penny drops. The problems of players not turning up or general lack of commitment rarely improves with a different voice, even if fresh thinking has transformed many clubs. In a more difficult economic environment, clubs will have to go back to sorting out their problems from within. That demands responsibility from players. Instead of taking aim at the easy target, a lot of players should take a good honest look at themselves and ask whether shooting the messenger would solve all problems.

Of course there are poor managers but the present situation where players can decide the manager's fate is untenable. The successful counties and clubs place great stock on co-operation in getting the right man and then sticking with him. In many other places players need mirrors, not a change of management.

Sunday Independent

[magpie seanie]

Lads and lassies - question about the 16 year old scoring 1-13 for Adare yesterday. My question is - is he legal to play under the rules on age?

[Two Hands FFS]

Yeah he could play for the county team if called up. You cant play senior if your U16 so he's obviously in his first year of minor

[Zulu]

Taken from AFR, which in turn got it from the Limerick Leader;


By Jerome O'Connell
GAA Correspondent
LIMERICK hurling was plunged deep into crisis this Wednesday night with further withdrawals from Justin McCarthy's inter-county hurling panel.
The latest to quit are Brian Geary, Donal O'Grady, Seamus Hickey and Wayne McNamara.
As Ireland's World Cup soccer torture was unfolding in Paris, Limerick GAA officials were meeting in the Gaelic Grounds where confirmation of the latest withdrawals was announced to the executive officers.
Leader Sport understands that the quartet contacted Limerick GAA chairman Liam Lenihan last evening to confirm their decision to follow Damien Reale and James Ryan out of the panel in protest at the manner of McCarthy's wholesale changes.
Three weeks ago Justin McCarthy called a meeting of the remainder of his 2009 panel to plan for the new season and it became clear that regulars such as Mark Foley, Stephen Lucey, Niall Moran, Andrew O'Shaughnessy, Donie Ryan and Mike O'Brien had all been omitted.
Within days, Damien Reale and James Ryan withdrew from the panel in protest.
Now a further four players have departed leaving McCarthy, Brian Ryan and Liam Garvey with just 12 players remaining from the 2009 panel that was beaten by 24-points in the All-Ireland semi-final by Tipperary.


And posters on AFR have said Gavin O'Mahoney and Brian Murray are gone too. It would appear that Justin will now have to stand down but it's interesting that the Limericl players have taken the advice posters here gave to the Cork lads and simply walked away. It'll have the same result as the Cork strike however and Justin will not be over the Limerick senior hurlers this year, not unless he can get those players back anyway.

[dowling]

So if Justin does go Zulu and those players who have walked away as well as those dropped by McCarthy come back doesn't that mean that the players are in effect picking the panel? And does this represent a misplaced loyalty to each other rather than to the county?
Would it be unfair to suggest that any new manager would in effect be picked by the players also? With the way things are now in counties any manager whose views on everthing about a team differ from the players is probably on a loser from the start.

[Zulu]

The bottom line here is that players have the right to walk away from a team (any team) if they can't commit to it, whether that is for personal or playing reasons. The Limerick players obviously feel that Justin isn't right for the job and are walking away, now the Limerick CB and Justin need to decide if they should move on without most of last years panel, if they do that's fine, if they don't well that's fine too.

I don't think it is acceptable to say that a) players should play IC if they are picked or b) that if they do play they should continue to play even if they are very unhappy with the quality of preparation.

They are volunteering their time and effort, it is only reasonable to do that if they management are delivering a top quality support structure. Like I've said, supported by the Tony Griffen interview in the Tribune, the modern player expects modern preparation and old school coaches need to either get up to date with that, surround themselves with people that can deliver it or get out of teh IC coaching game.

[theskull1]

The bottom line here is that players have the right to walk away from a team (any team) if they can't commit to it, whether that is for personal or playing reasons. The Limerick players obviously feel that Justin isn't right for the job and are walking away, now the Limerick CB and Justin need to decide if they should move on without most of last years panel, if they do that's fine, if they don't well that's fine too.

I agree

I don't think it is acceptable to say that a) players should play IC if they are picked or b) that if they do play they should continue to play even if they are very unhappy with the quality of preparation.

I agree although there'll always be some players who will always be disgruntled (especially if they don't make the starting 15...what should they do???...for another thread I suppose) .......but you'd surely agree that it appears that some of the players are behaving like sheep and following the herd in this instance......so really this is a group tactic to oust the manager rather than "individual personal decisions"

They are volunteering their time and effort, it is only reasonable to do that if they management are delivering a top quality support structure. Like I've said, supported by the Tony Griffen interview in the Tribune, the modern player expects modern preparation and old school coaches need to either get up to date with that, surround themselves with people that can deliver it or get out of teh IC coaching game.

Not alot to disagree with there either I suppose Zulu. I wonder is that what is driving a lot of them to drink the bit out when they're volunteering all that time and effort  . Seriously, could Tony not have shown a bit of balance and dwelt on the players responsibilty to adhere to their responsibilties when it comes to modern preparation? It cuts both ways. Unless both parties admit failings and show a proper willingness to change together then they may as well pack the whole thing up. Once this whole pandering to spoilt brat behaviour begins, nothing good will come out of it because the players won't have learned that they need to take responsibilty for things not going right as much as the management. The next manager will simply be the next scape goat.   

[Zulu]

agree although there'll always be some players who will always be disgruntled (especially if they don't make the starting 15...what should they do???...for another thread I suppose) .......but you'd surely agree that it appears that some of the players are behaving like sheep and following the herd in this instance......so really this is a group tactic to oust the manager rather than "individual personal decisions"

Well you could accuse players of behaving like sheep if they continued to play for a guy they felt wasn't any good just becasue he was appointed to the job. And I feel there is a big difference between a player(s) who are disgruntled because they aren't on the team and a whole panel who are unhappy because of the methods of the manager.

could Tony not have shown a bit of balance and dwelt on the players responsibilty to adhere to their responsibilties when it comes to modern preparation? It cuts both ways. Unless both parties admit failings and show a proper willingness to change together then they may as well pack the whole thing up.

I'd have to say that I'd most likely walk away from a set up where the manager has us training on the morning of a league game (an affront to supporters who travelled and paid into that game too by the way) and rants about hating the opposition rather than tactics. There's just too much effort involved for lads to be doing that and getting back what McNamara was delivering.

In saying all that I do find some players a complete pain in the backside myself, I've coached a few different teams in teh past year or two and I have to really work at not planting one or two of them such would be their attitude but as with all coaches you have to see the bigger picture and if I want I can always walk a way too.

[Bing Crosby .]

I'm glad they've decided to go . Limerick doesn't need hurlers that piss and moan when their team mates are legitimately dropped . I'm disgusted with the panel . 

[INDIANA]

If Justin has any sense he'll just walk away. Because he's only postponing the inevitable circus. We'll see whether the limerick players accept any responsibility for performance levels under a new coach but I think Justin is a bit out of touch with the modern game at this stage. Justin should have taken the dublin job when he was asked- would have suited him perfectly because there were no expectatations.