Limerick hurlers

[dowling]

The bottom line here is that players have the right to walk away from a team (any team) if they can't commit to it, whether that is for personal or playing reasons. The Limerick players obviously feel that Justin isn't right for the job and are walking away, now the Limerick CB and Justin need to decide if they should move on without most of last years panel, if they do that's fine, if they don't well that's fine too.

I don't think it is acceptable to say that a) players should play IC if they are picked or b) that if they do play they should continue to play even if they are very unhappy with the quality of preparation.

They are volunteering their time and effort, it is only reasonable to do that if they management are delivering a top quality support structure. Like I've said, supported by the Tony Griffen interview in the Tribune, the modern player expects modern preparation and old school coaches need to either get up to date with that, surround themselves with people that can deliver it or get out of teh IC coaching game.

Nothing to disagree with there Zulu but you have painted a black and white picture that's a little too simplistic.
Players aren't simply walking away, they're firing parting shots and/or expressing solidarity with other players. If Justin goes and those players come back, and the ones dropped, you would have to say they have influenced a managerial appointment and panel selection.
How far will this go? Will it get to a stage where players run county teams and CBs become fundraisers for them?
Of course managers make mistakes and I dare say most would admit to that, in preparation or during matches. And their mistakes can be costly. But sometimes players can blame managers unfairly as can the general public. But we don't always know what thinking is behind everything. I doubt very much if McNamara thought training on the day of a league game was necessary to improve fitness for that match and on the face of it it would be difficult to say that was anything other than wrong. But do you know why he did it? I would like to know the thinking behind it and maybe McNamara feels justified but as a rule managers don't expose their players to public criticism. Was this the  'old school' approach you refer to. And what is 'old school'? I'd say every county manager applies to some degree a scientific approach to training and matches but everything doesn't come down to science.
If I remember correctly when Donal OGrady took the Cork job he found the players couldn't tackle, hook and block properly and he put serious work into that. The cream of Cork couldn't do something basic. Now is that an indictment on the players or previous managers? Should county managers be responsible for ensuring players at that level have a basic skill or should those players have ensured they had the skill? Why did those players not know they lacked this basic skill? Maybe in Limerick and Clare there are players lacking something which the managers have noticed and are trying to address and maybe need to address before moving on to a higher level.
All we really hear are the players' complaints or demands and I don't think the increasing frequency of this can be dissassociated from the GPA. Maybe managers should go to the papers and highlight individual players weaknesses and refer to particular matches to show evidence.
If players want to walk away because of some disatisfaction no problem. Wasn't it Carter who walked away from Kilkenny because he couldn't get a starting place he believed was his? Is Brian Cody 'old school'?

[Zulu]

How far will this go? Will it get to a stage where players run county teams and CBs become fundraisers for them?

I don't think anything like that will happen, as I've said already, I think these disputes are arising from generational differences in how teams should be prepared. I would argue that many players don't know how to prepare a team either but they do know what's not good even if it's only because they've trained under better coaches.

I doubt very much if McNamara thought training on the day of a league game was necessary to improve fitness for that match and on the face of it it would be difficult to say that was anything other than wrong. But do you know why he did it? I would like to know the thinking behind it and maybe McNamara feels justified

I don't know what his thinking was but the bottom line is that tehre is no justification for a 2 hour training sesion on the morning of a match. You can't justify it and it raises serious questions as to Mike Macs abilities as a coach, if the players had been in the pub the night before having 4 or 5 pints they'd be no worse off than having trained for 2 hours the morning of the match and what do you think the reaction would have been if that came to light?

And what is 'old school'?

Old school is someone that isn't preparing teams to the current best standards.

Is Brian Cody 'old school'?

I'm sure Brian has a number of weaknesses but he is smart enough to realize this a surround himself with people who can do certain things better than himself. Mickey Harte and Jack O'Connor likewise, and Liam Sheedy for that matter. This is the way to go, the likes of Justin and Mike Mac can't coach the modern player so if they want to be a manager they need to get people in to do the physical preparation and possibly other areas too.

[dowling]

How can anyone quantify how far all this will go Zulu? But here's the thing. If Justin and McNamara go it will be because players decided so, not the CB, in the same way Cork players decided Gerald McCarthy should go and the footballers there previously thought Teddy Holland should also go. And what about the Offaly footballers earlier in the year? Decision making is being taken out of the hands of CBs. And in a similar way manager's are being dictated to on what type of training they should implement and additionally, in Limerick's case at least, who should be on the panel. Yet only a few years ago players in Cork who went on to perform with great acclaim didn't realise they couldn't tackle and didn't realise this was an area they needed to address. Now that wasn't addressed because Donal OGrady came into the job with some revolutionary and scientific approach to training, 'new school' thinking you might say. But why didn't previous managers spot this? Obviously different managers see different things and managers see things differently to players. There was no rebellion when OGrady dealt with the tackling but there is contention at times when managers try to address problems they see which players don't. And it comes back to who is going to decide how things are done. If the players decide then there's no need for a manager and this 'old school' term gives credence to any claim they know best. Whether managers are of 'old school' or 'new school' it's only part of the requirements to be a manager. And when you take this further didn't Donal Og tell Gerald that he would make the decisions on how he would take his puck outs?
I know 'past' managers who would would readily admit they wouldn't now be up to what's required to manage a good club team now and in a sense I suppose that meets your definition of 'old school'. In 'their day' they would have been regarded as excellent managers and much sought after but because they've been away from the game they're not up to scratch. From my experience most managers who may be 'older' but who haven't been away from the game are well up to the mark on best training methods and the use of 'science' although I doubt two managers with the same knowledge would apply training methods in exactly the same way. The most successful team in my own club has had different managers over the last six years, all very knowledge and of the 'new school' but applied very different methods to training but all have had similar success. Of course there is always some criticism from players but different players have different criticisms of different managers. And if you or me were managing the team there would probably be different criticism again. And again we come back to who makes the decisions. But managers will be different and their applications will be different. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with highlighting 'those b**tards hate us'. However when it's a soundbite from a disgruntled player and portrayed as the be all and end all of match preparation then it does look like old school. But will there be a chance of someone in Kilkenny referring to Donal og's book prior to a match to get the blood up? I'd say every chance. Will that be old school? In soccer when Alex Ferguson split Beckhams eye was that old school? I would say it was but there's no regimental way of doing things.
We don't know McNamara's thinking and that of most managers because they don't run to the press. Players more frequently do. Is that because the GAA is developing and changing with the times. I don't know that much about McNamara but I doubt if, in spite of the questionable morning training, everything about his ability is the black and white picture painted of him. As for Justin, up until recently he was lauded as a coach and manager but now all that has changed because a group of players say so.
Players can't be objective in the appointment of a manager, the selection of a panel or the application of training. There has to be a structure which takes account of all needs for each of the above. Maybe I'm of the 'old school' but I still believe the CB appoint the manager and the manager picks the team and both stand or fall by their choices to those they're accountable to.

[orangeman]

Quote
Is Brian Cody 'old school'?


I'm sure Brian has a number of weaknesses but he is smart enough to realize this a surround himself with people who can do certain things better than himself. Mickey Harte and Jack O'Connor likewise, and Liam Sheedy for that matter. This is the way to go, the likes of Justin and Mike Mac can't coach the modern player so if they want to be a manager they need to get people in to do the physical preparation and possibly other areas too.

Micko and Paidi spring to mind when you talk about "old school".

There are plenty of stories about Mick O'Dwyer taking charge of the training and some it certainly would appear to be "old school" and it doesn't seem to do his teams any harm ?

Paidi in Westmeath if you watched the Youtube video where in front of the whole panel, picked out one player for criticism cos he wasn't tough enough ( " you were f--ked over the sideline like a loaf of bread" I think were his words ) but again Westmeath seemed to respond positively to his promptings.

Or are these 2 boys the exception to the rule ?.

[Zulu]

That's quite a mouthful dowling and I don't disagree with a lot of it but you suggested I simplified the issue in a previous post but you've done the same, why? Because we have to, of course there are multiple layers and 101 shades of grey in any dispute and even if we were directly involved we couldn't appreciate the varying opinions and motivations of everyone, so we have no chance of being able to do that when we are looking in from a distance.

From my experience most managers who may be 'older' but who haven't been away from the game are well up to the mark on best training methods and the use of 'science'

Let me assure you that they weren't up to the mark, I can say this because I'd doubt there are any coaches involved in the GAA who are at the very cutting edge of preparation. This is in part because we are amateur and therefore limited by time and money and in part because most don't have the expertise. You'll have to accept that as being true dowling because I know what I'm talking about in this regard.

I doubt two managers with the same knowledge would apply training methods in exactly the same way. The most successful team in my own club has had different managers over the last six years, all very knowledge and of the 'new school' but applied very different methods to training but all have had similar success.

Yes, different methods are to be expected, there isn't just one way to do it but there are a few things to consider here. One, proper training is about adhering to correct principles rather than doing certain drills in a certain order, so you and me could do different training programs but if we both know what we're doing then they should be based on similar principles. Second, the higher the level your coaching the more important it is that you're doing things right, at the lower levels it is easier to get results with less than optimal training. Finally, there are more factors involved in successful teams than physical preparation and again, the higher the level the more important it is to get these right. At club level you could be winning games because of what other teams aren't doing more than what you are doing, at IC level you have get everything as right as it can be because your competition are trying to do that.

Of course there is always some criticism from players but different players have different criticisms of different managers. And if you or me were managing the team there would probably be different criticism again.

Yep, definitely and I've experienced that myself, where some players don't buy into what I'm saying as much as I'd like but I also know I have weaknesses as a manager/coach and I try to improve on these areas each year. I look for feedback from players and encourage them to ask questions and raise issues with me if they have them and I try to take on board criticisms as opposed to dismissing them as simply the natterings of disgruntled players. I think you have to do this and I don't think players will follow you for too long if you don't, Justin and Mike Mac appear to have fell down in this regard.

As for Justin, up until recently he was lauded as a coach and manager but now all that has changed because a group of players say so.

That isn't true, a lot of question were asked about Justin after his stint in Waterford and many in the county wanted him gone long before the 'player coup'. His tactical awareness and communication skills were top of the list of criticisms and apparently he hadn't spoken to some players (directly) in months.

Players can't be objective in the appointment of a manager, the selection of a panel or the application of training. There has to be a structure which takes account of all needs for each of the above. Maybe I'm of the 'old school' but I still believe the CB appoint the manager and the manager picks the team and both stand or fall by their choices to those they're accountable to.

IMO, CB's should be appointing people who are knowledgeable in the area of team preparation to pick the manager, e.g. ex-managers, ex-players and probably, an older player or two from the current panel. It's adults were talking about here and I don't know of any player who would try and get in a weak character as manager who couldn't do the job because he thought that would ensure his own position on the team, every player I know, would simply want the man best able to help them succeed. And every manager managing a team must remember that his players are volunteering there time so he must prepare them properly and show them a good degree of respect, I'm not sure Justin or Mike have done this.

[INDIANA]

An IC manager shouldn't be doing any coaching of the team in my opinion. He should be a facilliatator a la Declan Kidney. Thats the problem here in my view. Both Justin and Mike Mac want to coach as well. Isn't enough time to do both in my opinion while tending to all the other needs.
Harte and Cody tend to watch training. They bring in coaches to do the other things.
Its a big job and it needs specialists in all areas.
Pat Flanagan and Sugrue train Kerry- JOC watches
Martin Fogarty trains kilkenny and cody watches
Same for Harte I'd say.
I know Daly does some of the coaching for Dublin but not  alot. But thats a different case- our lads would need his input because we are trying to break through the concrete ceiling of hurling which ain't easy.
I think the Seamus Hickey defection will put Justin's position untenable more than any other player.

[orangeman]

Now that the GPA have gained formal recognition, can we expect Dessie and co. to be at the next CB meeting in Limerick and Clare to help resolve the problems that exist in these 2 counties ?


Hopefully they'll be on 2 different dates - it's a fair auld run to these 2 places. A lot of diesel needed.   

[dowling]

Zulu I'm not trying to oversimplify anything here.
If there was a list of the top 100 managers in the country I doubt there would be much of a gap in knowledge of training requirements, best training practices and training results. Let's not forget a manager is only as good as his players but what puts one manager above another is as much down to personality, how one can get more from his players than another, and tactical knowhow. Let's not get hooked up on the science.
You refer to some wanting Justin out before he went. I recall ones in Tyrone calling for the removal of Mickey Harte before they went on to win the all-Ireland. Waterford eventually got to the final but were thrashed under a different manager but playing a team in more or less the same fashion as Justin. Is Davy a better manager because he got to the final or is Justin better because he never got such a thrashing? A bit of discontent from certain quarters in a panel can seal a manager's fate as quickly as a poor run of results. Throwing out the soundbites about hatred between counties fails to paint a whole picture. Managers use that type of motivation all the time. It's not an old school thing. Everyone might not respond positively to it but that doesn't mean it's lost on all.
But at the end of the day it still comes down to what roles people have. We all give CBs criticism but as I rule I would be inclined to believe that CBs do consult with 'knowledgeable' people when deciding upon a manager. In the same way they would look for expert advice on their finances. But even if we went your way to an 'appointments committee' that would still be the players calling the shots, they're the ones making the issues and any changes are in effect at their behest.
So who appointed Cody, Harte or Jack OConnor? The question of how to appoint a manager only seems to arise when there's an unsuccessful team with an element of discontented players. Who appointed the Clare under 21 manager? Any credit there to the CB?

[DuffleKing]

Zulu I'm not trying to oversimplify anything here.
If there was a list of the top 100 managers in the country I doubt there would be much of a gap in knowledge of training requirements, best training practices and training results. Let's not forget a manager is only as good as his players but what puts one manager above another is as much down to personality, how one can get more from his players than another, and tactical knowhow. Let's not get hooked up on the science.
You refer to some wanting Justin out before he went. I recall ones in Tyrone calling for the removal of Mickey Harte before they went on to win the all-Ireland. Waterford eventually got to the final but were thrashed under a different manager but playing a team in more or less the same fashion as Justin. Is Davy a better manager because he got to the final or is Justin better because he never got such a thrashing? A bit of discontent from certain quarters in a panel can seal a manager's fate as quickly as a poor run of results. Throwing out the soundbites about hatred between counties fails to paint a whole picture. Managers use that type of motivation all the time. It's not an old school thing. Everyone might not respond positively to it but that doesn't mean it's lost on all.
But at the end of the day it still comes down to what roles people have. We all give CBs criticism but as I rule I would be inclined to believe that CBs do consult with 'knowledgeable' people when deciding upon a manager. In the same way they would look for expert advice on their finances. But even if we went your way to an 'appointments committee' that would still be the players calling the shots, they're the ones making the issues and any changes are in effect at their behest.
So who appointed Cody, Harte or Jack OConnor? The question of how to appoint a manager only seems to arise when there's an unsuccessful team with an element of discontented players. Who appointed the Clare under 21 manager? Any credit there to the CB?

Players?

[dowling]

Are you implying there were players discontented in Waterford and none in Tyrone Duffleking?

[DuffleKing]

Yip

[dowling]

So what's the Waterford background then and who were the disgruntled players and why were they?

[dowling]

By the way duffle let your mouth do the talking and give your arse a rest for a while if you're going to answer. Your insults only reflect on yourself.

[DuffleKing]

was that a genuine question or were you just paving the way for more personal abuse?

Are you seriously telling me you're not aware of player unrest in the last year of justin McCarthy's management in Waterford?

[dowling]

If you cant come up with an answer just say so.