UC 2010: Aontroim vs Tír Eoghain 23rd May, Páirc Mhic Asmaint

[OverThePostsAWide]

Yes! If he is in the square before the ball. Coming off the keeper, another player, or the post has nothing to do with it - despite what you might have heard along the sideline (right after "two man tackle ref!", "10yds forward ref!", "he lifted the kickout inside the 21 ref!"  ).

If Cavanagh entered the square after the ball first entered it but while the ball was still in there and he didn't have time to step out before the ball went out and in again then it would have been legit. But I don't think that was the case. I don't think I would even want to try and work that sequence out in real time A square ball was the correct call.

a bit like the offside rule in soccer. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Stick to the soccer reffing. there's a good lad, Sandwiches 

Goal would have stood in 90% of cases, IMO.

In my experience a square ball would have been given 90% of the time simply because he was in the square when he scored (regardless of when/how he arrived there unless he is seen to soar through the air )

Why is it open questions are always answered by the most patronising b'stards?

I'm in awe you're able to call square ball when from watching the replay over and over it isn't clear whether Hughes kicked the ball from out side of the small rectangle, or whether Cavanagh was inside when the ball left Hughes' boot.

Doesn't matter what the intention was, the rule is quite clear in principle if not reality.

The intention and the principle of the rule are one and the same. That sort of drivel will have you chairing the CCC in no time.

I noticed you didn't manage to quote the question you asked:

Now is it even technically a square ball if the opposing keeper saves and another player fists it in from inside the box?

How is that an "open" question? You asked a question and I answered it. If you thought my answer was patronising then fair enough. But did you really need to call me a b'stard just because your ignorance was exposed?

You pronounced your verdict based on a soccer interpretation of a gaelic rule you didn't bother to read FFS!

Or were you just shooting the breeze on that one as well so that we could all stand back and admire?

Whoops, I'm being a bit of a b'stard again, sorry. When's the next CCC meeting? I need to canvass a few supporters... 

[A Quinn Martin Production]

See the Irish News managed to dedicate the back page to Baker's sour grapes courtesy of Archer...

Watched the game back there, Mugsy's steal was legit, took it clean, Brady stumbled after losing the ball.

Bit perplexed at them giving Niblock MOTM when the rest of the team were rated so low, apart from CJ McGourty. Also don't agree that Davey Harte should be rated higher than Cathal McCarron.

I've no complaints about this goal, but he did pull Brady's shirt....technically a foul but I don't think McEneany could have seen it.  How he missed Mulligan's throw for the first goal mind you...

On the subject of pulling, I never seen a man pulled as much as SON was everytime he got near the ball.  As for people complaining about Antrim errors causing Tyrone scores, this happens in every game.  Most scores are from some mistake somewhere in the build up to a score,  I am sure if you analysed Antrims scores you could put most of them down to Tyrone making errors.  Its always been like that, so why the big hooo haahhh now, you would swear that Antrim set every ball they had on a goalies kick out tee for the Tyrone men to simply tap it over the bar or into the net.

I think we're complaining about unforced errors e.g. Antrim player letting the ball go straight through his hands when under no pressure vs O'Neill's first point...a moment of genius, Antrim player can do nothing about it.

[Fuzzman]

Match report from Irish Times


ULSTER SFC Tyrone 2-14  Antrim 1-13:  A VIVID championship Sunday in Casement Park. The sky was the colour it is supposed to be, the stands and terraces creaked, Tyrone gave a performance. Antrim drew some hope. All well with the world.

In truth it was a little more like a reprise of last year's Ulster final than the locals will have wished for. Tyrone permitted Antrim to get close on the scoreboard especially during a narcoleptic second half but they always had enough self assurance and class to be able to dig themselves out. Antrim won't look on yesterday as representing an upward incline on their learning curve.

Tyrone whom Mickey Harte reckoned deserved a mark of seven and a half out of 10 in the first half and six " for effort" in the second looked like a side with plenty in the tank. When they wanted to score, which was regularly before the break they tore through and did just that. One of the sights of the first half was full back Justin McMahon rampaging the length of the pitch and taking a point from a chance which should have yielded a goal. They led by seven points at half time and were good value for that having taken all but a point of their 2-6 from play.

It was the Tyrone we have come to know and fear breaking quickly with players joining the attack at pace regardless of what position they were picked in. If the opportunity beckoned Tyrone latched onto it. Casement had barely settled down after the anthem when Tyrone announced that they would be playing their greatest hits. From the throw in a period of possession denied Antrim a touch for some 10 to 15 seconds before Stephen O'Neill drove a superb point over the bar. O'Neill was in superb form and one point in particular in the second half when he latched onto to a fine low driven pass from Owen Mulligan and slotted a point from the narrowest of angles told us all we need to know about his plans for the rest of the summer. Himself and Mulligan playing as a two-man full forward line just had too much wit and pace for Antrim and it was a slight surprise that Antrim didn't pull a player back to sweep in front of them.

Antrim were catching a few breaks in midfield and their opponents were a little wasteful of the chances but Tyrone's energy was as oppressive as the high sun.

The game effectively ended with Kevin Hughes' goal after just nine minutes. Not for the last time Mulligan was the provider as Hughes came steaming through. He needed to think quickly having taken possession but his goal, though it only stretched the lead to three points, established authority.

Just on the half hour Mulligan cashed in a few chips for himself. Turning over possession from an Antrim back (which Liam Bradley later insisted was a foul) Mulligan tore toward the goal sold one of his patented dummys and buried it in the net.

It was redemption of sorts. Mulligan had just fluffed possession from a sweeping Tyrone move which had ended with a precise pass from Ryan McMenamin.

"I was trying to make up for dropping the first one," he said mock ruefully afterwards.

The goal which Antrim needed in the second half might have come a little earlier to have been of real benefit. Bradley's substitutions were working well and Antrim's ratio of possession was picking up without a notable dent on the scoreboard. Twenty minutes into the half, however, the goal came. Kevin Niblock driving through from centre forward and finishing with a shot to the corner of the net which would have passed muster in the Bernabeu on Saturday.

Somewhat suprisingly Antrim were now only only four points behind Tyrone were unperturbed. Mulligan and O'Neill were still busting out the chances. Martin Penrose was enjoying a fine game and even when Paddy Cunningham managed to reduce the gap to a point from a free with nine minutes left there was never the sense of a sensation about to occur.

If Antrim had a win in them it was likely that CJ McGourty, a popular incoming sub on 25 minutes would have been instrumental. His points from play were the bright spots in a patchy performance but down the straight he found himself suffocated for space having to settle for points when Antrim needed a knock out blow.

So Tyrone roll on to a game against either Down or Donegal in the semi-final. Antrim hit the road for qualifying. Work to do in both corners but Mickey Harte wore the broader grin afterwards.

TYRONE: P McConnell; M Swift, Justin McMahon (0-1), D Carlin; D Harte, R McMenamin, P Jordan (0-1); K Hughes (1-1), C Cavanagh (0-1); B Dooher (0-1), S Cavanagh (0-3), Joe McMahon; M Penrose, S O'Neill (0-3), O Mulligan (1-0). Subs: Sean O'Neill for McMenamin (51 mins), P Harte for Dooher (51 mins), C McCarron, T McGuigan (0-1) for Hughes (68 mins), B McGuigan for Mulligan (70 mins).

ANTRIM: J Finucane; C Brady, A Douglas, K O'Boyle; T Scullion (0-1), J Crozier, S Kelly; A Gallagher, B Herron; T O'Neill, K Niblock (1-1), J Loughrey; P Cunningham (0-5), M McCann (0-1), T McCann (0-1). Subs: CJ McGourty (0-3) for Kelly (18 mins), K McGourty for Herron (41 mins), G O'Boyle for O'Neill (41 mins), K Brady for McCann (52 mins).

Referee: P McEnaney (Make a game of it - Monaghan ).

[orangeman]

TYRONE: P McConnell; M Swift, Justin McMahon (0-1), D Carlin; D Harte, R McMenamin, P Jordan (0-1); K Hughes (1-1), C Cavanagh (0-1); B Dooher (0-1), S Cavanagh (0-3), Joe McMahon; M Penrose, S O'Neill (0-3), O Mulligan (1-0). Subs: Sean O'Neill for McMenamin (51 mins), P Harte for Dooher (51 mins), C McCarron, T McGuigan (0-1) for Hughes (68 mins), B McGuigan for Mulligan (70 mins).

ANTRIM: J Finucane; C Brady, A Douglas, K O'Boyle; T Scullion (0-1), J Crozier, S Kelly; A Gallagher, B Herron; T O'Neill, K Niblock (1-1), J Loughrey; P Cunningham (0-5), M McCann (0-1), T McCann (0-1). Subs: CJ McGourty (0-3) for Kelly (18 mins), K McGourty for Herron (41 mins), G O'Boyle for O'Neill (41 mins), K Brady for McCann (52 mins).

Referee: P McEnaney (Make a game of it - Monaghan ).



Class.

[David McKeown]

Watching the square ball decision over and over. It looks like when it was kicked in high by Cavanagh. Took a bounce outside the square, Finucane then just beats Hub to it, pats it down inside the box. Cavanagh comes in, hits off him, Hughes then pats at it trying to control it. He then kicks it, it's not clear if he is inside or out at this point, McHugh says Hub kicks it from outside the small rectangle. Finucane and an Antrim player manage to save it between them inside before it deflects off them and comes to Cavanagh who knocks it in, from what looks like inside the box. What isn't clear is whether Cavanagh was inside when Hub kicked it.

Now is it even technically a square ball if the opposing keeper saves and another player fists it in from inside the box?

Yes! If he is in the square before the ball. Coming off the keeper, another player, or the post has nothing to do with it - despite what you might have heard along the sideline (right after "two man tackle ref!", "10yds forward ref!", "he lifted the kickout inside the 21 ref!"  ).

If Cavanagh entered the square after the ball first entered it but while the ball was still in there and he didn't have time to step out before the ball went out and in again then it would have been legit. But I don't think that was the case. I don't think I would even want to try and work that sequence out in real time A square ball was the correct call.

The idea of the rule is not stop players standing on the goal line beside the keeper when the high ball comes in

Doesn't matter what the intention was, the rule is quite clear in principle if not reality.

a bit like the offside rule in soccer. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Stick to the soccer reffing. there's a good lad, Sandwiches 

Goal would have stood in 90% of cases, IMO.

In my experience a square ball would have been given 90% of the time simply because he was in the square when he scored (regardless of when/how he arrived there unless he is seen to soar through the air )

That would only be correct if the player in the square does not touch the ball or interfere with the defence, although prior to checking the rule yesterday I was also of the opinion that if you had entered the square legally and the ball had been played out of it and back into it before you could get out of the square then it was not square ball.

The rule states: (It is a foul)

4.10  For an attacking player to enter opponents'
small rectangle before the ball enters it during
the play.
  Exceptions
  (i)  If an attacking player legally enters the
small rectangle, and the ball is played
from that area but is returned before the
attacking player has time to leave the area,
provided that he does not play the ball
or interfere with the defence, a foul is not
committed.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

Watching the square ball decision over and over. It looks like when it was kicked in high by Cavanagh. Took a bounce outside the square, Finucane then just beats Hub to it, pats it down inside the box. Cavanagh comes in, hits off him, Hughes then pats at it trying to control it. He then kicks it, it's not clear if he is inside or out at this point, McHugh says Hub kicks it from outside the small rectangle. Finucane and an Antrim player manage to save it between them inside before it deflects off them and comes to Cavanagh who knocks it in, from what looks like inside the box. What isn't clear is whether Cavanagh was inside when Hub kicked it.

Now is it even technically a square ball if the opposing keeper saves and another player fists it in from inside the box?

Yes! If he is in the square before the ball. Coming off the keeper, another player, or the post has nothing to do with it - despite what you might have heard along the sideline (right after "two man tackle ref!", "10yds forward ref!", "he lifted the kickout inside the 21 ref!"  ).

If Cavanagh entered the square after the ball first entered it but while the ball was still in there and he didn't have time to step out before the ball went out and in again then it would have been legit. But I don't think that was the case. I don't think I would even want to try and work that sequence out in real time A square ball was the correct call.

The idea of the rule is not stop players standing on the goal line beside the keeper when the high ball comes in

Doesn't matter what the intention was, the rule is quite clear in principle if not reality.

a bit like the offside rule in soccer. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Stick to the soccer reffing. there's a good lad, Sandwiches 

Goal would have stood in 90% of cases, IMO.

In my experience a square ball would have been given 90% of the time simply because he was in the square when he scored (regardless of when/how he arrived there unless he is seen to soar through the air )

That would only be correct if the player in the square does not touch the ball or interfere with the defence, although prior to checking the rule yesterday I was also of the opinion that if you had entered the square legally and the ball had been played out of it and back into it before you could get out of the square then it was not square ball.

The rule states: (It is a foul)

4.10  For an attacking player to enter opponents'
small rectangle before the ball enters it during
the play.
  Exceptions
  (i)  If an attacking player legally enters the
small rectangle, and the ball is played
from that area but is returned before the
attacking player has time to leave the area,
provided that he does not play the ball
or interfere with the defence, a foul is not
committed.

Therefore square ball was the correct decision.

[gallsman]

He was dead right to leave the game flow, if he brought it back he would have rewarded Antrim for breaking the rules.

No, he was wrong fro playing the advantage to Tyrone. The new sideline rule doesn't result in a free to the opposing team so therefore there should have been no advantage whatsoever.

[Redhand Santa]

Like Armagh last week it's difficult to assess Tyrone on that game.   Down (provided they advance next week as I expect them to) and Monaghan will be a much sterner test for both counties. 

Whoever suggested that if it's a Tyrone-Armagh final it should be played in Croker needs therapy.   Half the population is struggling for work so catch a grip.   I will never go to another Ulster final that is not played in Ulster.

I think some people actually enjoy the recession. How much extra would it cost to go to Dublin for the day? A few extra pound on petrol but not much. People dont have to eat out etc in Dublin thats a seperate choice. It would work out cheaper for the average family because there would be a lot more family tickets available. The ticket prices may also be dropped slightly to attract more people. Would be a good idea to play a Tyrone Armagh or Down Armagh game there.

[stibhan]

We have to allow refs some discretion, we allow the hurling refs have plenty of it and it encourages a more free flowing game. IMO the rule book shouldn't be strictly adhered to as many of the rules were written many years ago and have little to do with the modern game. You mention about the pick up, well if that was reffed strictly there'd be another 10 frees per game. We can go around in circles here but I want to see refs allow the game flow rather than quote rule x subsection y ad nauseum. The rules are only there to allow the game be played they shouldn't be implemented if they are actually preventing the game being played. good refs know the difference, the Derek Fahy's of the world don't.

Nobody is against letting the game flow and using common sense. However, letting Tyrone have an attack when the rule book states a hop ball is the necessary action is not using common sense, it's breaking the rules. If it was the case that Tyrone were being unfairly punished for an Antrim defensive foul, and McEnaney decided to let them have the advantage, then I'd have no complaints. It's difficult enough for the players to follow the new rules without a referee giving his own liberal interpretation of them, however exciting or not that is. It's arguable that McEnaney and all the other 'common sense' referees do more to damage the consistency of refereeing decisions than the 'Derek Fahy's of the world'.

P.S.McEnaney ('Make a game of it') indeed, I think there were plenty of people in Casement wondering where he pulled the last 4 frees for Tyrone out of his arse whilst he was there.

[ziggysego]

I've been away from the board a few days and indeed the country. So only getting back on now.

Watched the game last night on the telly. Thankfully my father DVR'd it for me from RTE. Some moments of pure brilliance from Tyrone, the Mulligan goal being the ultimate moment. SoN looking sharp as ever and Dooher being a real calming force within the team. It was the Tyrone of old in the first half. Joe McMahon doing terrific work, getting all the balls and moving it back up into the Tyrone half again.

I was especially please to see Colm Cavanagh taking the potential he has shown from the league, into the Championship. Not without error, but still showing the big improvement from recent years.

Antrim had a blinding 2nd half, showing guts and determination, plus Baker rejigging the team to get his tactics right. However, they didn't have the belief I believe to push on and get a win yesterday. Perhaps that was Tyrone's saviour at the end of the day.

So in conclusion, Tyrone showing they still have what it takes to push for the big prizes in July and September, but still need a lot of work to do that. Donegal or Down won't let them away with as much the next day, but hopefully we'll be the same.

[INDIANA]

I've been away from the board a few days and indeed the country. So only getting back on now.

Watched the game last night on the telly. Thankfully my father DVR'd it for me from RTE. Some moments of pure brilliance from Tyrone, the Mulligan goal being the ultimate moment. SoN looking sharp as ever and Dooher being a real calming force within the team. It was the Tyrone of old in the first half. Joe McMahon doing terrific work, getting all the balls and moving it back up into the Tyrone half again.

I was especially please to see Colm Cavanagh taking the potential he has shown from the league, into the Championship. Not without error, but still showing the big improvement from recent years.

Antrim had a blinding 2nd half, showing guts and determination, plus Baker rejigging the team to get his tactics right. However, they didn't have the belief I believe to push on and get a win yesterday. Perhaps that was Tyrone's saviour at the end of the day.

So in conclusion, Tyrone showing they still have what it takes to push for the big prizes in July and September, but still need a lot of work to do that. Donegal or Down won't let them away with as much the next day, but hopefully we'll be the same.

I don't think Tyrone are at Cork and Kerry's level on that showing. That backline will be torn to shreds by either forward line. Tyrone are definitely the best of the rest. Still reliant on the same players who are among the best of their time but where is the new blood? Worrying times ahead for Tyrone in my opinion.

[ziggysego]

I've been away from the board a few days and indeed the country. So only getting back on now.

Watched the game last night on the telly. Thankfully my father DVR'd it for me from RTE. Some moments of pure brilliance from Tyrone, the Mulligan goal being the ultimate moment. SoN looking sharp as ever and Dooher being a real calming force within the team. It was the Tyrone of old in the first half. Joe McMahon doing terrific work, getting all the balls and moving it back up into the Tyrone half again.

I was especially please to see Colm Cavanagh taking the potential he has shown from the league, into the Championship. Not without error, but still showing the big improvement from recent years.

Antrim had a blinding 2nd half, showing guts and determination, plus Baker rejigging the team to get his tactics right. However, they didn't have the belief I believe to push on and get a win yesterday. Perhaps that was Tyrone's saviour at the end of the day.

So in conclusion, Tyrone showing they still have what it takes to push for the big prizes in July and September, but still need a lot of work to do that. Donegal or Down won't let them away with as much the next day, but hopefully we'll be the same.

I don't think Tyrone are at Cork and Kerry's level on that showing. That backline will be torn to shreds by either forward line. Tyrone are definitely the best of the rest. Still reliant on the same players who are among the best of their time but where is the new blood? Worrying times ahead for Tyrone in my opinion.

I wouldn't count Cork amongst the best. They always show a lot of promise, but continue to fail to deliver. This year will be no different. It's Kerry's to lose this year, but only if Tyrone make it to the final, which I'm not sure they will. They won't be far away though.

As I've said before on the board, this is a Tyrone team in transition and I'm not expecting big things from them this year. I just want to see some of the newer players get a bit of pedigree and experience at Championship football and show a bit of promise for the future. However, with this remarkable bunch of players, who knows.

[rrhf]

I honestly think its Tyrone to lose this year. 

[red hander]

I honestly think its Tyrone to lose this year.

Hope you're right ... and I wish I had your optimism

[ziggysego]

I honestly think its Tyrone to lose this year.

Tell you what, if Tyrone do win.... I'll get you that pint I owe ya