The Frontline - RTE Pat Kenny

[Zapatista]

Okay either your lying that a No vote will force a change of government.

Or Kenny and Gilmore are lying about a No vote not forcing a change of government.

This is unjustified direct and negative attack on me. I am not telling lies I'm making a prediction based on facts and opinions. Just like I predicted Tyrone would win Ulster before they did it while others predicted Armagh. It's an honest approach i'm taking and you are calling me a liar. Not only that but you are using my opinion to call all No campaigners liars too. Dirty tricks.

This is way off topic.

[Zapatista]

after listening to some of this stuff last night i can't blame you. would i be right in saying public sector = greed ? they know they are earning between 20 - 40 % more than their european counterparts but are still unhappy and prepared to strike (ie bring the country down!) if their benefits are effected further ?!@ they've also had it too good for too long these people.

If it was that black and white it would be ok but unfortunatly the public sector is made up of real people with real lives. Many may lose their homes and will certainly see a huge drop in their living standards. Many have partners who have lost jobs and are now single income. This was all built on a lie and they are right to be angry.

[Abble]

yeah, now i agree with you there ok.....what i should maybe say is (like everywhere else) target those who have been getting the over-inflated pays, its obvious there is too much going to the big-cats and there has to be some sort of balancing of pay structures or something to cure this

[Bogball XV]

after listening to some of this stuff last night i can't blame you. would i be right in saying public sector = greed ? they know they are earning between 20 - 40 % more than their european counterparts but are still unhappy and prepared to strike (ie bring the country down!) if their benefits are effected further ?!@ they've also had it too good for too long these people.

If it was that black and white it would be ok but unfortunatly the public sector is made up of real people with real lives. Many may lose their homes and will certainly see a huge drop in their living standards. Many have partners who have lost jobs and are now single income. This was all built on a lie and they are right to be angry.

a drop in income will not see anyone lose a home, it simply means they have to budget a little better.  Whatever way you want to look at it, public servants are overpaid, both by comparison to their peers and by comparison to the private sector.  The country does not have enough money to pay them the agreed upon rates of pay, there are two potential solutions, one is to cut their salaries, the other is to cut their numbers, either way, there is only a certain amount of money to go around, let them make the choice.
As for the prospect of them striking, well, it's not such a bad propspect really, provided the govt doesn't give in, they'll be able to save money (by not paying them whilst on strike) and agree better terms when they have to come back to work.
FF and Bertie in particular are to blame for this mess, it's difficult to take money away from people once you've given it to them, but they have to appreciate the seriousness of this situation, their salaries were and are too high.  Someone mentioned nurses and teachers etc, a teacher with 10 yrs exp gets about 52K, a nurse with 5/6 yrs hits close to 60K (after all allowances etc are added), these figures are acurate, i have seen the payslips, it's unfortunate, but these salaries are too high.
Perhaps as a reward for cutting pay we could also improve conditons, maybe provide creches or give them more holidays (don't laugh).

[Zapatista]

a drop in income will not see anyone lose a home,

A woman on the show last night lost her home, it was taken by the bank. Her husband lost his job and they lost their home. There was obviously more than her pay cut involved but like I said they are real people with real lives. In the real world and in life the public sector workers and private sector workers are not separate.

[Billys Boots]

It's an honest approach i'm taking and you are calling me a liar. Not only that but you are using my opinion to call all No campaigners liars too. Dirty tricks.

Hmmm, that sounds very familiar to me - now what hypocrite did this to me last week?  Let me think carefully?

[magpie seanie]

Its typical with everything in this country. Most people are such gullible, docile fools they swallow the so-called "accepted wisdom" on everything without bothering to step back and think for themselves 2 minutes. There are loads of people, I would say the vast majority, in the public service who do a very good job in difficult circumstances for a fair wage. These people are not the problem but barstool economists everywhere are willing to support these people getting screwed again. The sledgehammer approach when the scalpel is required. The real problem with the public service is bureaucracy and the idiotic mis-management that is rife in the sector. The government will not tackle this - which is the real issue - as its too difficult and politicians are so friendly and reliant on these very people. So as with Lisbon and most issues the tactic is a bit of spin, misdirection and the gobshites will fall for it every time. Looks like it is working.

[thebigfella]

a drop in income will not see anyone lose a home,

A woman on the show last night lost her home, it was taken by the bank. Her husband lost his job and they lost their home. There was obviously more than her pay cut involved but like I said they are real people with real lives. In the real world and in life the public sector workers and private sector workers are not separate.

You cannot legislate for individual cases. I feel sorry for them but it still doesn't change the fact public spending need cut.

The way I can see it is you can either ask the public sector as a whole to share the burden (whether through salary cuts, pension cuts etc.) for the greater good of their colleagues or make people redundant (as the private sector has done). I know which option makes sense to me but again maybe I'm looking at it too simply.

[Billys Boots]

When the pay differential between private and public sector was reversed (the other way around), the public sector got benchmarking.  If they're prepared to accept positive benchmarking, why not negative?

[Zapatista]

Hmmm, that sounds very familiar to me - now what hypocrite did this to me last week?  Let me think carefully?

I stand over what I said.

[Billys Boots]

So, for you to be called a liar based on your opinions is unfair and 'dirty tricks', but for you to call me a liar based on mine is justified? 

[Zapatista]

So, for you to be called a liar based on your opinions is unfair and 'dirty tricks', but for you to call me a liar based on mine is justified?

Lets be reasonable here Billy. You expect me to believe that you think the Lisbon treaty is merely administrative changes that will have no affect on me and you. I don't believe you. I think it is an appropriate position to take. While the Yes campaign think it will help our economy and jobs the No campaign think it will lead to futher militarisation and and give more power to the Eu (and these are only a few of the affects), you think it will have no affect on me and you. I don't believe that you believe that. I give you more credit than that.

The points I made in which I was called a liar have more credibility.

[Main Street]

An opinion is not a lie.
I hope you have apologised to Billy if you called him a liar.

[Billys Boots]

I consider myself to be a reasonable person.

I don't expect you to believe anything Zap, however, I do expect you to extend to me the courtesy of accepting my bona fides.  I do believe that this treaty is in relation to administrative affairs, I've explained many time why I believe this to be true - I've given my opinion, I've given my reasons, and there's no reason to call me a liar, disingenuous etc. 

You are within your rights to have distain for my opinion, as I am within my rights to disbelieve your contentions, which I most certainly do.  I believe my opinions have more credibility than yours, I haven't seen any evidence that would allow me to entertain yours.

I say this respectfully, and I apologise for calling you a hypocrite.

[An Gaeilgoir]

Its typical with everything in this country. Most people are such gullible, docile fools they swallow the so-called "accepted wisdom" on everything without bothering to step back and think for themselves 2 minutes. There are loads of people, I would say the vast majority, in the public service who do a very good job in difficult circumstances for a fair wage. These people are not the problem but barstool economists everywhere are willing to support these people getting screwed again. The sledgehammer approach when the scalpel is required. The real problem with the public service is bureaucracy and the idiotic mis-management that is rife in the sector. The government will not tackle this - which is the real issue - as its too difficult and politicians are so friendly and reliant on these very people. So as with Lisbon and most issues the tactic is a bit of spin, misdirection and the gobshites will fall for it every time. Looks like it is working.

The real problem in the public service are unvouched expenses, job sharing (2 days a week, then 3 days a week) yet keeping all the increments for a full time job. Abuse of the holiday pay/ time off scam that has been going on for years. Unsackable teachers, guards etc. they just get moved up the ladder and out of departments. unvouched days off. A teacher i know retired recently received 110,000 lump sum with a pension of 1200 a month, the contribution to that pension was over the 40 years was 4 per cent of their wages. Relocation money, training allowances. To listen to "front line staff", you would swear that they worked 24/7. Nurses i know work 3 tweleve hours shifts and are then off for 4 days or else do a week of nights and get a week off. imagine a private company working like that, they would be bust in a week. Guards using their days off to head down the country to arrest people, getting over-time, meal allowances, over-night accomidation even if they dsont use it. These rates are all fixed, what would the problem be in paying expenses after receipts are sent in, as it is the world over, not to mention the state car that a friend of mine has for his own personal use for almost two years now, he is plain clother but gets a uniform allowance as well as a dry cleaning alowance. Teachers getting stressed, but cant be sacked no matter how incompetent they are, they work in the main 09.00- 15.00, days off for elections, holy days and three months off in the summer, if they were so worried about the nations education where would the problem in them taking one months less holidays, they are getting paid for it after all or would it interfere with their  part time jobs in the summer.  How is it that private hospitals the country over are more efficient by a large degree than public ones, even when these private hospitals have  A&E departments. Consultants carry out a small number of procedures every week in public hospitals but when they are conducting private clinics thay can carry the same number in one afternoon. in my line of work i deal with a lot of public agencies along with semi-state agencies, to look at some of the out dated work practices in these areas would make a private sector managers eyes water. its time to get efficient, as its us the tax payers who are paying for it all.

The country is fucked, we dont have the money to keep going the paying what we are paying out. if the IMF arrive at our door, the public sector will be crying out for the cuts in the December budget as the IMF will bring the largest sledge hammer with them to break the public sector nut.