The Frontline - RTE Pat Kenny

[Billys Boots]

Public service my arse!

Asti bans parent-teacher meetings after school, Irish Times 29/09
SEÁN FLYNN Education Editor

SECONDARY TEACHERS are to press ahead with a ban on parent-teacher meetings outside of regular school hours this autumn, in a move that brings them into direct confrontation with the Department of Education.

The decision by the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland (Asti) has sparked a furious reaction from the National Parents Council post primary (NPCpp).

It says the move will greatly inconvenience working parents, and those in precarious jobs who are reluctant to ask for time off.

Last night, Minister for Education, Batt O'Keeffe, expressed disappointment. But the department is thought reluctant to dock teachers' pay as talks continue with the unions arising from the McCarthy report on public service cuts.

Secondary teachers were paid for a series of productivity concessions – including out-of-hours parent-teacher meetings and a common school year – as part of the last national pay deal.

But in a letter to 18,000 Asti members yesterday, general secretary John White says a union directive "means that if a parent-teacher meeting is scheduled to take place outside of school hours, no Asti member should attend."

The move comes as schools prepare for parent-teacher meetings over the coming weeks, especially for Junior and Leaving Cert classes. Principals say many parent-teacher meetings will have to be rescheduled because of the latest Asti move.

The Asti had been widely expected to lift its ban on parent-teacher meetings this weekend after discussions with parent groups.

But in a surprise decision, the union executive pressed ahead with the ban amid growing anger among members about possible pay cuts in the public sector.

Rose Tully, president of the parents' council, said she was very disappointed by the ASTI decision "at this difficult time when parents and teachers should be working together."

Many working parents, she said, would find it very difficult to attend parent-teacher meetings despite their critical importance for parents and for pupils.

Under the Sustaining Progress process, teachers received additional payments for a series of concessions on productivity. These included new arrangements for three parent-teacher meetings between 4.15pm-6.45pm per year.

In all, teachers received six separate payments and a cumulative 14 per cent pay increase since January 2004.

But the Asti points out that the Government has breached the current pay deal. It says members are furious about the combined impact of the pension levy, cuts in the supervision and substitution scheme and the ban on promotion.

The Asti first agreed the ban on parent-teacher meetings at its annual conference last Easter. But its impact will only be felt in coming weeks.

Over the weekend, Mr White wrote to union shop stewards in order to clarify the impact of the ban, amid some confusion in schools.

The union has also issued a series of other directives in protest against the education cuts – and public sector pay cuts.

The Asti and the Teachers' Union of Ireland have issued directives limiting co-operation with school inspections.

The second-level unions are also refusing to attend staff meetings and school development planning outside of school hours.

[magpie seanie]

Its typical with everything in this country. Most people are such gullible, docile fools they swallow the so-called "accepted wisdom" on everything without bothering to step back and think for themselves 2 minutes. There are loads of people, I would say the vast majority, in the public service who do a very good job in difficult circumstances for a fair wage. These people are not the problem but barstool economists everywhere are willing to support these people getting screwed again. The sledgehammer approach when the scalpel is required. The real problem with the public service is bureaucracy and the idiotic mis-management that is rife in the sector. The government will not tackle this - which is the real issue - as its too difficult and politicians are so friendly and reliant on these very people. So as with Lisbon and most issues the tactic is a bit of spin, misdirection and the gobshites will fall for it every time. Looks like it is working.

The real problem in the public service are unvouched expenses, job sharing (2 days a week, then 3 days a week) yet keeping all the increments for a full time job. Abuse of the holiday pay/ time off scam that has been going on for years. Unsackable teachers, guards etc. they just get moved up the ladder and out of departments. unvouched days off. A teacher i know retired recently received 110,000 lump sum with a pension of 1200 a month, the contribution to that pension was over the 40 years was 4 per cent of their wages. Relocation money, training allowances. To listen to "front line staff", you would swear that they worked 24/7. Nurses i know work 3 tweleve hours shifts and are then off for 4 days or else do a week of nights and get a week off. imagine a private company working like that, they would be bust in a week. Guards using their days off to head down the country to arrest people, getting over-time, meal allowances, over-night accomidation even if they dsont use it. These rates are all fixed, what would the problem be in paying expenses after receipts are sent in, as it is the world over, not to mention the state car that a friend of mine has for his own personal use for almost two years now, he is plain clother but gets a uniform allowance as well as a dry cleaning alowance. Teachers getting stressed, but cant be sacked no matter how incompetent they are, they work in the main 09.00- 15.00, days off for elections, holy days and three months off in the summer, if they were so worried about the nations education where would the problem in them taking one months less holidays, they are getting paid for it after all or would it interfere with their  part time jobs in the summer.  How is it that private hospitals the country over are more efficient by a large degree than public ones, even when these private hospitals have  A&E departments. Consultants carry out a small number of procedures every week in public hospitals but when they are conducting private clinics thay can carry the same number in one afternoon. in my line of work i deal with a lot of public agencies along with semi-state agencies, to look at some of the out dated work practices in these areas would make a private sector managers eyes water. its time to get efficient, as its us the tax payers who are paying for it all.

The country is fucked, we dont have the money to keep going the paying what we are paying out. if the IMF arrive at our door, the public sector will be crying out for the cuts in the December budget as the IMF will bring the largest sledge hammer with them to break the public sector nut.

Good post and I think we are in agreement really. None of these problems will be solved by an across the board pay cut though. Public service reform is badly needed and the items you've mentioned are probably only the tip of the iceberg. The major problem has been that the government have actually done nothing since it became brutally clear that we were in the serious shit a year ago. The unions faced them down then and it has festered to where we are now.

The end game with this will probably be a small pay cut and a reduction in social welfare which will be blamed on public service unions/workers.

[An Gaeilgoir]

Its typical with everything in this country. Most people are such gullible, docile fools they swallow the so-called "accepted wisdom" on everything without bothering to step back and think for themselves 2 minutes. There are loads of people, I would say the vast majority, in the public service who do a very good job in difficult circumstances for a fair wage. These people are not the problem but barstool economists everywhere are willing to support these people getting screwed again. The sledgehammer approach when the scalpel is required. The real problem with the public service is bureaucracy and the idiotic mis-management that is rife in the sector. The government will not tackle this - which is the real issue - as its too difficult and politicians are so friendly and reliant on these very people. So as with Lisbon and most issues the tactic is a bit of spin, misdirection and the gobshites will fall for it every time. Looks like it is working.

The real problem in the public service are unvouched expenses, job sharing (2 days a week, then 3 days a week) yet keeping all the increments for a full time job. Abuse of the holiday pay/ time off scam that has been going on for years. Unsackable teachers, guards etc. they just get moved up the ladder and out of departments. unvouched days off. A teacher i know retired recently received 110,000 lump sum with a pension of 1200 a month, the contribution to that pension was over the 40 years was 4 per cent of their wages. Relocation money, training allowances. To listen to "front line staff", you would swear that they worked 24/7. Nurses i know work 3 tweleve hours shifts and are then off for 4 days or else do a week of nights and get a week off. imagine a private company working like that, they would be bust in a week. Guards using their days off to head down the country to arrest people, getting over-time, meal allowances, over-night accomidation even if they dsont use it. These rates are all fixed, what would the problem be in paying expenses after receipts are sent in, as it is the world over, not to mention the state car that a friend of mine has for his own personal use for almost two years now, he is plain clother but gets a uniform allowance as well as a dry cleaning alowance. Teachers getting stressed, but cant be sacked no matter how incompetent they are, they work in the main 09.00- 15.00, days off for elections, holy days and three months off in the summer, if they were so worried about the nations education where would the problem in them taking one months less holidays, they are getting paid for it after all or would it interfere with their  part time jobs in the summer.  How is it that private hospitals the country over are more efficient by a large degree than public ones, even when these private hospitals have  A&E departments. Consultants carry out a small number of procedures every week in public hospitals but when they are conducting private clinics thay can carry the same number in one afternoon. in my line of work i deal with a lot of public agencies along with semi-state agencies, to look at some of the out dated work practices in these areas would make a private sector managers eyes water. its time to get efficient, as its us the tax payers who are paying for it all.

The country is fucked, we dont have the money to keep going the paying what we are paying out. if the IMF arrive at our door, the public sector will be crying out for the cuts in the December budget as the IMF will bring the largest sledge hammer with them to break the public sector nut.

Good post and I think we are in agreement really. None of these problems will be solved by an across the board pay cut though. Public service reform is badly needed and the items you've mentioned are probably only the tip of the iceberg. The major problem has been that the government have actually done nothing since it became brutally clear that we were in the serious shit a year ago. The unions faced them down then and it has festered to where we are now.

The end game with this will probably be a small pay cut and a reduction in social welfare which will be blamed on public service unions/workers.

Spot on Magpie Seanie, the root of a lot of our problems are the trade unions, to watch Peter mc Loon on Frontline last night squirm when questioned by Pat on FAS. These trade unionists harp on about workers rights but really their snouts are in the troughs with all the rest of the vested intrests in this country of ours. Recently there was a strike in our industry (electricians), the TEEU lad who organised the strike was rewarded with a 25 per cent pay rise and a promotion after that. Workers rights my hole! All the elcetricians got was what they had already and minus a few days wages. Look at the state boards, all the trade union boys are sitting on each of them The large American multi- nationals here in this country do not alloy the unions inside their doors and i dont see any "race to the bottom" in fact most people i know who work in them really enjoy it.

[tyronefan]

Maybe its time the IMF came in because the idiots we have in government seem to be incapable of dealing with unions.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

It's all Fianna Fails fault.

Despite my anger at Public Servants, I know nurses work is very tough, Gardai work is dangerous & teachers have to deal with little gobsh!tes. I also believe that the vast majority of people in the banking industry are not to blame for the banks fck ups, I believe most people at branch level including as far up as Branch managers did their job as best and honestly as possible. I would even say must area managers where no to blame. In the building Industry not all developers are to blame for the economic crises, I for one think the Liam Carroll wasn't a man who was overlay greedy and was a victim of the economic crises as most of us, and all those he employed.

Most of the abuses or problems of our economy are down to Fianna Fail, which I do believe is corrupt from root to branch. It is Fianna Fails need for power at any cost that has led to so many of the problems in our economy. The Government should have reformed the Civil Service years ago instead of decentralisation to buy votes. Instead of hiring so many extra civil service workers prior to elections. Not properly keeping any eye on the banks to make sure they are following their prudential responsibilities. For instance AIB had been quite responsible in relation to lending up to 2 years ago, but pressure from shareholders based on the practices of Anglo-Irish bank forced AIB to change to a stupid risky lending policy. But then again the Government couldn't even keep an eye on the Financial Regulator or bodies such as FAS. They played lip service to national spacial strategies. Don't say decentralisation, because if it where to follow the National Development programme those jobs should have gone to large towns such as Castlebar, Ballina, Letterkenny, Athlone, Killarney, Tralee, Portlaoise, Sligo, Kilkenny, Wexford, Dundalk, Drogheda, Tullamore, Cavan, Monaghan & Longford. The BMW region has been left to fester and rot during the Celtic Tiger period, what hope have we now.

Step 1. Get Fianna Fail out of Government.
Step 2. Ban Fianna Fail as a party, guilty of economic terrorism.

Am I the only one sick to my stomach to see the big posters of Bertie Ahern for the Sunday World. He should be hanging his head in shame (not in the Fianna FAILure lexicon). How the hell he never spent time in Mountjoy or another prison I'll never know.

[Farrandeelin]

Suppose I will be attacked from all sides as I'm a teacher... However, I would take a pay cut. I have already had the 10% pension levy. And for the 2 secondary unions calling for a strike it is lunacy. I voted against the INTO's proposal to strike last year because it wouldn't do anybody any good. There, not everyone wants hikes when we know people can't afford them. As for unsackable teachers, there are a number of my friends who can't get a job and were teaching for 2 or 3 years in some cases.

[Billys Boots]

I don't think there's anyone her who has it in for teachers - what galls us is those clowns that are supposed to represent your views (ASTI/INTO and TUI) but who'd much rather represent their own warped views.  The audience on Kenny last night was full of them - they were a disgrace. 

[Hound]

Unions are out for themselves and nobody else. They feel the need to take various actions just to justify their salaries and the subs they charge their members.

Of course there is a need for unions, but they've forgotten all about what that need is.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

The ones that really annoyed me last night where the ones screaming what do you earn? I don't think I saw any Public Sector workers lower themselves to that, in fact a few might have been embarrassed to say how low they where getting paid on national TV. Then there was the public sector worker in a pinstripe suit & looked a bit of a ponce to be honest (with the curly red hair) apparently his opinion did not count because he looked "well healed", I used to wear a pinstriped suit to work, it was called professionalism before I lost my job (but my pay wasn't much over half of my teacher friends with the same years worked, actually I have worked a lot more years, because I only got about 23 days holiday a year, and the I did the same degree in college). While this fella seemed like a bit of a plonker why was he their target? They hounded him until he said he earned well under €100,000, at which point the sneering a hissing started. What angered me when I saw this is these public sector workers where having a go at him for being worried about loss of income or loss of his job, he did say he had children too, they where about to go to college (fees will have to be paid by him too), so if he over-burdened himself through say a big mortgage during the boom and now could get a reduction in income or lose employment how is he any more to blame than a public service worker who got a mortgage that was probably to large for them in the first place.

Then there was the public servant who shouted at the private sector worker with the sling, jeering him about who did he think "did his arm". My question is who filled the atm in the bank so he could purchase a coffee, who served him his coffee on his way to RTE studios, when he pulled in for petrol who did he pay for the petrol. Of course when he gets home and has a sandwich, who packed the contents on the shelves and who did he pay on the way to the checkout to purchase the ingredients. Private sector workers all the way.

[Pangurban]

Its notable that many of the groups now calling for cutbacks in public services eg the small business alliance are who same people who during the good times bare-facedly ripped off the public with hyper inflated prices for goods and services. During the Celtic Tiger years, Nurses had to be imported from abroad, there were not too many envying their jobs then. Countries like people eventually reap what they sow, and the bitter harvest has now arrived.. The plain people of Ireland will rip each other apart and when it is all over the same rotten,corrupt,political,religious and social elites will still be top of the pile, running things to their advantage. You all know this is true

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

The plain people of Ireland will rip each other apart and when it is all over the same rotten,corrupt,political,religious and social elites will still be top of the pile, running things to their advantage. You all know this is true

Fianna Fail

[Zapatista]

when it is all over the same rotten,corrupt,political,religious and social elites will still be top of the pile, running things to their advantage. You all know this is true

That's my big worry with NAMA. Now that the market that brought them to power has lost its value they get their buddies to put it on ice at the cost of the tax payer untill a time that the value returns. When that value returns their buddies can dish it back to them. We only pay for the storage and they reap the awards.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Unions seeking 3.5% pay increase in public sector pay, so I suppose I can expect a similar decrease in my dole. 

[Rossfan]

Didnt watch the programme as I had to work in my little public sector job.
So the Bankers/FFBuilders and the Fatcats fcuk up the Country and the only way to save it is cut public pay.
The magic figure put about by the gobshites in the Media who are cheerleading for IBEc/ISME etc is a €1Bn reduction.
If they would only stop and think( no that's too much to ask) they would realise that about 65% of that €1bn already goes to the Exchequer(41% tax,10% so called pension levy,2% Income levy,6.5% Superannuation contribution and 5% or 8% PRSI/Health levy).
The remaining 350m is mainly spent on buying goods and services from the Irish private sector. About 110m of that goes back to Govt in VAT and Excise duties.
The remaining 240m maintains how many jobs in shops,hair dressers,pubs,restaurants,garages etc 10,000 ??.
If 10,000 jobs go then Govt loses 50m in PAYE/PRSI/Inc Levy contribs and has to pay out 100m in dole.
So instead of €1,000,000,000 saved the Govt save about €90million.

Aye it's all the public servants' faults alright.

[Bogball XV]

Didnt watch the programme as I had to work in my little public sector job.
So the Bankers/FFBuilders and the Fatcats fcuk up the Country and the only way to save it is cut public pay.
The magic figure put about by the gobshites in the Media who are cheerleading for IBEc/ISME etc is a €1Bn reduction.
If they would only stop and think( no that's too much to ask) they would realise that about 65% of that €1bn already goes to the Exchequer(41% tax,10% so called pension levy,2% Income levy,6.5% Superannuation contribution and 5% or 8% PRSI/Health levy).
The remaining 350m is mainly spent on buying goods and services from the Irish private sector. About 110m of that goes back to Govt in VAT and Excise duties.
The remaining 240m maintains how many jobs in shops,hair dressers,pubs,restaurants,garages etc 10,000 ??.
If 10,000 jobs go then Govt loses 50m in PAYE/PRSI/Inc Levy contribs and has to pay out 100m in dole.
So instead of €1,000,000,000 saved the Govt save about €90million.

Aye it's all the public servants' faults alright.

I have sympathy with the public service (mostly because a cut there will affect my familial income ) and I know it's unpalatable, but tbh people talking about a 1bn cut in pay are talking shite, we genuinely need to cut expenditure by about 10bn per annum.  If you look at their budget, they reckon that expenditure of 55bn odd will drop incrementally to 45bn in 5 yrs time, by which time our income of approx 30bn will have risen to about 45bn - one can only laugh, and then cry, and then try and tear one's hair out at the utter optimism being employed.
As I've said before, it's not the public sector's fault that hundred's of thousands of them were taken on and paid wages that the country could never afford, it's not their fault that the depts got their sums wrong, but they have to accept that they're overpaid, it's quite simple, it's either numbers in employment or the amount they're paid, something has to give. 

For those public servants out there who don't agree with me, what do you suggest?  How are we to bridge the 20Bn shortfall in our national income?