Antrim Hurling

[Last Man]

The considered opinion of the NA div board is to reject them. Ourselves and I assume Cushendun, and Glenravel would be feeling cut loose by this but as I have said before no real surprise.
It's every club for themselves down here I suppose.

[cfclg]

There may not be any changes to the hurling league/championship structures this year but there needs to be!

We shouldn't care about who is in what league until first deciding a structure. At a high level without too much detail here is my view.

The league you play in dictates the grade of championship (ridiculous that we have this bye law where teams can choose what level of championship they want to play in).

Division 1 - Senior Championship.

We need at least 8 antrim teams in this league to have 2 groups of 4 (open draw to decide groups). Each team has 3 matches and top 2 into semi finals. All matches in group stage are at neutral grounds. If we could get 10 antrim teams and 2 groups of 5 all the better. I don't like to make comparisons to soccer but champions league format works so why should we think we have better ideas! I have also seen this format work in other counties.

There would also be relegation finals. Bottom two teams in each group play a  relegation final and loser is moved down a grade.

Division 2 - Intermediate Championship

Same format as above with maybe 10/12 teams. 2 groups of 6 could mean top 4 in each group go into quarter finals rather than just top 2 into semis.

Division 3 - Junior Championship

Same as Intermediate.

Division 4 - Junior B Championship

Dependant on numbers but hopefully follow same format.


Negative points:

There will be 'pointless' games in the group stages depending on group draw.
Increased volume of games and clashes with football etc. However, if we had one way leagues that would help.
No provision for reserve teams in these proposals.

Positives:

Group draw would be exciting. Imagine drawing one senior group with the big four in it. We would have some group battles that year.
Relegation battles would keep teams in championship mode right throughout the summer.
More championship hurling is surely a good thing.

That was harder to explain than I thought!!

[CitySlicker11]

Was going to use the St Finbarrs from Cork argument myself, but then reevaluated and decided that during that period of time being a dual player was much easier. There are still mostly the same problems in place such as work and family commitments, but now the train that is required to succeed at both is too much. Single code clubs that are lucky enough to win all Ireland titles are totally devoted to that cause.

This automatically gives them an advantage over a team that may have to spread their week between hurling and football. Often is the case that this club will only have one pitch, so teams can't even go on the same night. Players become tired and 'bored' if they are out on consecutive nights with different codes.

MR2 has a point, maybe this should come from above at county level to try and put propositions in place where these type of clubs could exist.

[johnneycool]

There's only 4 senior Div1 NA clubs and by my reckoning 14 non Div 1 NA clubs. I don't believe that NA collectively would be able to agree what to do. Each club will have their own position.


And why have these proposals been thrown out without a bit more detail explaining the motivations for change? Clubs may not be in possession of all the relevant points and will simply take a self interest decision. The county board should know that and communicate what they feel clubs should also be considering when weighing up as well as take on board clubs concerns (e.g.reduced gates). They are important factors

I suppose the obvious questions to ask are;

what is the problem these draft proposals are meant to resolve?

How will they resolve them?


I can see how round robin championship games may be appealing but ultimately they can turn out to have as many meaningless games as the league its meant to replace.
Just because you give it the name of championship doesn't necessarily mean that its remotely close to championship competitiveness.

If using league positions to seed the draws can be complicated by us Down clubs, do you include points obtained against us or not? As already seen a lucky league draw where you get the big teams at home where you've more chance of picking up points can skew it a bit, but ultimately you'll still get the Loughguiles, Cushendalls, Dunloys, Ballycastle making the semi-final spots more often than not.

If we've learned anything from the backdoor in the AI series is that it suits the strong counties more than it does the weaker ones as can be seen by Kilkenny this year.

[manballandall]

I really dont understand where a lot of you are coming from.....to go back to MR2 argument, and apologies for doing so, but i dont believe that any team deliberately sends out a weakened team, other scenarios dictate so as we can see by the reasons given by black and amber for their weakened sides.
The reason MR2, and he can correct me here if im wrong, said that st galls would target home games in particular is because we would already have an advantage of palying at home so we would try and make the most of it and try to ensure that we have our strongest team out. Now of course we will always strive to have our strongest team out but for talk sake a player says due to work committments he cant play every match then im sorry if i was manager of a team id tell him to make himself available for the home games specifically.
Now of course we should strive to win every game and i dont think anybody can accuse st galls of not trying to do that no matter who they are playing or what team they have out.
But the simple fact is that for st galls, sarsfields, rossa, glenariff and i could throw in st johns, ballycastle, ballygalget the cran etc its all about survival until we can build a squad that is capable of challenging for league honours home and away. Do you not think Glenariff benefited from the stints in div 1, brief as they were, ? Of course they did. St Johns the same and also the down teams. I have no doubt that if any of the 4 teams spouted as being promoted could manage to survive a year or 3 in division 1 then the standard of hurling in that club would improve. Playing in div 1 would have a positive knock on affect on the underage teams and so the cyle improves and continues.
How is this not beneficial to antrim hurling ?
Admittedly there will be a few tankings along the way but isnt that already the case as already highlighted, even amongst the top 4. I have no doubt and can understand the frustration this might pose for the mighty shamrock and dall players and supporters but if given time this in the long run could benefit antrim hurling in my opinion.

AS mr2 has already said, we would rather go up as champions but if we get the opportunity to play div 1, we will take it and do our upmost to survive there for a year or 2 and hopefully in that time improve our own standads. If that means targeting home games as a more realistic chance of gaining points then cest la vie.

[Minder]

I really dont understand where a lot of you are coming from.....to go back to MR2 argument, and apologies for doing so, but i dont believe that any team deliberately sends out a weakened team, other scenarios dictate so as we can see by the reasons given by black and amber for their weakened sides.
The reason MR2, and he can correct me here if im wrong, said that st galls would target home games in particular is because we would already have an advantage of palying at home so we would try and make the most of it and try to ensure that we have our strongest team out. Now of course we will always strive to have our strongest team out but for talk sake a player says due to work committments he cant play every match then im sorry if i was manager of a team id tell him to make himself available for the home games specifically.
Now of course we should strive to win every game and i dont think anybody can accuse st galls of not trying to do that no matter who they are playing or what team they have out.
But the simple fact is that for st galls, sarsfields, rossa, glenariff and i could throw in st johns, ballycastle, ballygalget the cran etc its all about survival until we can build a squad that is capable of challenging for league honours home and away. Do you not think Glenariff benefited from the stints in div 1, brief as they were, ? Of course they did. St Johns the same and also the down teams. I have no doubt that if any of the 4 teams spouted as being promoted could manage to survive a year or 3 in division 1 then the standard of hurling in that club would improve. Playing in div 1 would have a positive knock on affect on the underage teams and so the cyle improves and continues.
How is this not beneficial to antrim hurling ?
Admittedly there will be a few tankings along the way but isnt that already the case as already highlighted, even amongst the top 4. I have no doubt and can understand the frustration this might pose for the mighty shamrock and dall players and supporters but if given time this in the long run could benefit antrim hurling in my opinion.

AS mr2 has already said, we would rather go up as champions but if we get the opportunity to play div 1, we will take it and do our upmost to survive there for a year or 2 and hopefully in that time improve our own standads. If that means targeting home games as a more realistic chance of gaining points then cest la vie.

One of those "brief stints" was for 7 years, until 2009 if my memory is correct. It's only the last few years we have been a yoyo team.

[manballandall]

And did the standard of hurling improve within your club ?

Did antrim not benefit from your stint in div 1 ?

So from all that post , thats all you could pick up on or add to

[CitySlicker11]

Keep Div 1 and 2 the way they are. 1 up and 1 down. 2nd from top and bottom play off. Adds a bit more meaning without radical changes that aren't needed. Also change championship. 1 match at that intensity each year isn't going to be enough to improve standards.

[CitySlicker11]

I would argue that Glenarrif played at a decent level over those years. For a club of their relative small size, seven years (if correct) in a row in the top flight is not a bad achievement. Dwindling numbers and rural location will always prevent them from challenging for major honours.

[johnneycool]

I would argue that Glenarrif played at a decent level over those years. For a club of their relative small size, seven years (if correct) in a row in the top flight is not a bad achievement. Dwindling numbers and rural location will always prevent them from challenging for major honours.

How small is the catchment area of Glenariffe?

I'd say we've a smaller catchment area.

[manballandall]

I would argue that Glenarrif played at a decent level over those years. For a club of their relative small size, seven years (if correct) in a row in the top flight is not a bad achievement. Dwindling numbers and rural location will always prevent them from challenging for major honours.

Nobody is arguing that they played at a good level and known glenariff they will have given a 100% in every game. My argument is that playing in div improves the standard within that club and in doing so improves the standard within the whole county....so if we have an additional 3 teams playing div 1 then that same scenarion would/should apply to them too so we have even more teams playing at a higher standard. It might take a year or 3 to get there but it will improve year year

[Minder]

And did the standard of hurling improve within your club ?

Did antrim not benefit from your stint in div 1 ?

So from all that post , thats all you could pick up on or add to

I am pretty sure I have had this discussion with you before so there is no point in doing it again, you won't change my mind and vice versa, but for us in that period we had a strong team (by our standards), being in Div 1 wasn't some sort of magic cure for us, we improved the standards in our club, had a good age profile, about 7 or 8 fellas in their early 20's and a few more experienced hands. We have lost quite a few in the last few years through retirement and haven't been able to replace them. We have very little coming through and I would guess we will be a middling Div 2 team in the next few years.

Skull has made my point for me a few times, Sarsfields tenure in Div 1 a few years ago, did nobody any good.

[Na Glinntí Glasa]

Champions league style championship was tried before. It didn't work as there loads of pointless games and some heavy hammering a for clubs. No one benifits.

The league structure was used before. We were top that year winning all out games, won our semi and lost the final to a team who lost 4 games that year to our one, the final.  Waste of time.

Current league structure works. It isn't broke. It doesn't need fixing.

Championship needs more teams. Too many teams are content with being in the intermediate championship.

[imtommygunn]

I would argue that Glenarrif played at a decent level over those years. For a club of their relative small size, seven years (if correct) in a row in the top flight is not a bad achievement. Dwindling numbers and rural location will always prevent them from challenging for major honours.

Nobody is arguing that they played at a good level and known glenariff they will have given a 100% in every game. My argument is that playing in div improves the standard within that club and in doing so improves the standard within the whole county....so if we have an additional 3 teams playing div 1 then that same scenarion would/should apply to them too so we have even more teams playing at a higher standard. It might take a year or 3 to get there but it will improve year year

Division 1 is not a magic cure. Just because you play against better teams it does not necessarily make you better.

The league in division 2 is very competitive at the top end. The better teams in 2 should be putting everything in to aspire to get to division 1.  It just seems that there are people who feel that division 1 will all of a sudden give focus to their team. Why are teams not focused in getting promotion in the first place?

The main problem with leagues of eight teams is for the high end of division 4 as Last Man stated and not for the division 2 teams. In that case awful hammerings are being dished out and no-one is learning anything. In division 2 is that really the case?

[Minder]

I would argue that Glenarrif played at a decent level over those years. For a club of their relative small size, seven years (if correct) in a row in the top flight is not a bad achievement. Dwindling numbers and rural location will always prevent them from challenging for major honours.

Nobody is arguing that they played at a good level and known glenariff they will have given a 100% in every game. My argument is that playing in div improves the standard within that club and in doing so improves the standard within the whole county....so if we have an additional 3 teams playing div 1 then that same scenarion would/should apply to them too so we have even more teams playing at a higher standard. It might take a year or 3 to get there but it will improve year year

Division 1 is not a magic cure. Just because you play against better teams it does not necessarily make you better.

The league in division 2 is very competitive at the top end. The better teams in 2 should be putting everything in to aspire to get to division 1.  It just seems that there are people who feel that division 1 will all of a sudden give focus to their team. Why are teams not focused in getting promotion in the first place?

The main problem with leagues of eight teams is for the high end of division 4 as Last Man stated and not for the division 2 teams. In that case awful hammerings are being dished out and no-one is learning anything. In division 2 is that really the case?

Spot on.