Doire v Mhuineacháin 24/5/09

[MR MISTER]

What a crying session this thread has turned into?  Mullan should get banned but lets be honest about the thing, he didn't try to end his career or seriously injure him.  By some of the reaction on here you'd nearly think he pulled a knife out of his sock and stabbed the fcuk out of him!  He'll get a suspension, get over it!

Also I can't really understand where all the praise for James Kielt is coming from.  Granted, he kicked two awesome points but he was in acres of space for both of them and offered nothing else through the whole game.  Thought Mark Lynch was quiet enough when he cam on too, I actually forgot he had come on until he hit a free!!

Don't think Doc should get anything extra as we niggly things like that go on in every game and once again there was no serious injury caused or even attempted for that matter.

Shit game.  Good result, all that matters really.

Kilelts points weren't some easy tap over score 25 yards out, in front of goal in some club league game. he scored two absolutely massive points from distance to DRAW the game and the other to put us ONE up in one of the most intense and intimidating enviroments he will ever face. Have you any understanding of how he was involved in in lifting Derrys game at that stage to go for the win.

The fact of the matter is Max that Kielt could have came on tens mins into the second half and offered the same amount as he did yesterday.  I have stated that both his points were awesome and he also was in a lot of space for both of them, I think this is an accurate enough account?  What did Kielt offer in the first half at all and in the second half outside of his two scores?

SM it seems to me like you have some sort of vendeta against James Kielt, somehow out of all the positives that came out of yesterdays game you seem to continue your arguement about how Kielt contributed very little. He scored 2 quality and very crucial points and lets not forget it was his 1st senior county championship appearance. In my book thats not a bad days work.
But hey maybe you know more about the game than the rest of us

[Zulu]

The biggest issue here is NOT adding more rules or adding a sin bin - this is NOT the answer. Just enforce the ones we have. If a referee has balls himself he'll deal with issues he sees and if the umpires or linesmen see it then he has to act. The biggest issue is enforcement and having the balls to enforce the rules. All it would have taken is to send 3 or 4 men off today (rightly for the fouls they committed) to set the tone for the season and get things up and running. Sadly we had referees now who have cowed out for things and people now looking for a sin bin, which allows you to keep men on the field, just replace them. There's no real advantage in that now that panels are so big.

I disagree entirely there JM and I disagree with those trying to blame the ref also, what yer being is wise after the event. The ref was right IMO to be lenient in the early stages as many games have a 'getting to know you' period and often settle down after that but this one didn't because the players didn't want to. To say we don't need new sanctions is patently wrong, yesterdays game wasn't a once off, in fact it is fairly common and if refs, as JM suggests, send 3 or 4 players off early all we'll hear is bullshit about consistency or how some jumped up ref who wants to be center off attention sends off lads who have been training for this day since God created man.

If I hear some fool talk about manliness or physicality in football I'll slap him, in Aussie rules and rugby there is genuine physicality and the sly cowardly rubbish that is all too prevalent in our games is embarrassing. Kicking guys in the ankles, verbally abusing him and then going down like a sack of spuds if he gives you a clip is so far from manliness that it isn't funny. The new rules showed that refs are more willing to sin bin or send off (yellow card) players and players are afraid of these sanctions, new rules are needed and needed badly.

[Mario]

I am an Armagh man and have not been pleased with everything Armagh have done over the years before you say it. Yesterday's game was a disgrace for the GAA and the book should be thrown at both teams. As regards the Derry N. 6, McGoldrick....as the ball was being thrown in to start the game he reached round the Monaghan No. 11, Finlay and punched him hard in the face in an unprovoked attack. This looked to me as something that was preplanned and doesn't look well for Cassidy

Would you ever give it a rest about Barry McGoldrick, he is definitely not a dirty player and was far from the most offending player with regards to fouls on the pitch yesterday.

[Maximus Marillius]

New rules my arse, get me a ref who will implement the existing rules.

[Bogball XV]

The ref exerted zero control over proceedings from an early stage, as Max has pointed out, he has umpires and linesmen, the umpires see a helluva lot of shite and ignore it - why??  If did their job and informed the ref about the off the ball nonsense that was going on before the ball had been thrown in, maybe things would have been different.  
I disagree with JMohan about a sin bin, a sin bin yesterday with every yellow card offence being followed with the player being sidelined for 10 minutes would put a stop to much of the nonsense that typically goes on in these games - it's a question of enforcement as much as anything else, referee's are too reluctant to send players off for incidents they don't see themselves (note Brian Mullan being cautioned after the linesman brought it to his attention), they're also reluctant to send players off early in the game - a ten minute sin binning would presumably make them less reluctant to do so, and teams would probably not be sent out to play in the manner we saw yesterday, if every cautionable offence would result in a reduction in their number for 1/7 of the game.
Another point about the referee, how could he possibly come up with only 2 minutes added on time at the end of each half?  Definitely time for time keeping to be taken out of the ref's hands (although it probably spared the neutral having to watch more of it).
As for crowd behaviour - i saw nothing untoward - fans were having a bit of banter, but all handshakes etc after the game.

[bingobus]

The biggest issue here is NOT adding more rules or adding a sin bin - this is NOT the answer. Just enforce the ones we have. If a referee has balls himself he'll deal with issues he sees and if the umpires or linesmen see it then he has to act. The biggest issue is enforcement and having the balls to enforce the rules. All it would have taken is to send 3 or 4 men off today (rightly for the fouls they committed) to set the tone for the season and get things up and running. Sadly we had referees now who have cowed out for things and people now looking for a sin bin, which allows you to keep men on the field, just replace them. There's no real advantage in that now that panels are so big.

I disagree entirely there JM and I disagree with those trying to blame the ref also, what yer being is wise after the event. The ref was right IMO to be lenient in the early stages as many games have a 'getting to know you' period and often settle down after that but this one didn't because the players didn't want to. To say we don't need new sanctions is patently wrong, yesterdays game wasn't a once off, in fact it is fairly common and if refs, as JM suggests, send 3 or 4 players off early all we'll hear is bullshit about consistency or how some jumped up ref who wants to be center off attention sends off lads who have been training for this day since God created man.

If I hear some fool talk about manliness or physicality in football I'll slap him, in Aussie rules and rugby there is genuine physicality and the sly cowardly rubbish that is all too prevalent in our games is embarrassing. Kicking guys in the ankles, verbally abusing him and then going down like a sack of spuds if he gives you a clip is so far from manliness that it isn't funny. The new rules showed that refs are more willing to sin bin or send off (yellow card) players and players are afraid of these sanctions, new rules are needed and needed badly.

Agreed Zulu (See we can agree now and again).

The refs can't or won't impose the current rules and always take the easy option. New rules are needed that will help them and also clean up managers and players. Banty was one of the biggest mouthpiece's against the new rules but if they had been imposed, his championship game plan would have went out the window. He didn't fair too bad with the new rules and with the small stature of many of his players, he should have been using them to his advantage.

Sin bin should definatley be explored as in rugby and until teams start having to play with 12/13 players then we won't get anywhere.

[JMohan]

The biggest issue here is NOT adding more rules or adding a sin bin - this is NOT the answer. Just enforce the ones we have. If a referee has balls himself he'll deal with issues he sees and if the umpires or linesmen see it then he has to act. The biggest issue is enforcement and having the balls to enforce the rules. All it would have taken is to send 3 or 4 men off today (rightly for the fouls they committed) to set the tone for the season and get things up and running. Sadly we had referees now who have cowed out for things and people now looking for a sin bin, which allows you to keep men on the field, just replace them. There's no real advantage in that now that panels are so big.

I disagree entirely there JM and I disagree with those trying to blame the ref also, what yer being is wise after the event. The ref was right IMO to be lenient in the early stages as many games have a 'getting to know you' period and often settle down after that but this one didn't because the players didn't want to. To say we don't need new sanctions is patently wrong, yesterdays game wasn't a once off, in fact it is fairly common and if refs, as JM suggests, send 3 or 4 players off early all we'll hear is bullshit about consistency or how some jumped up ref who wants to be center off attention sends off lads who have been training for this day since God created man.

If I hear some fool talk about manliness or physicality in football I'll slap him, in Aussie rules and rugby there is genuine physicality and the sly cowardly rubbish that is all too prevalent in our games is embarrassing. Kicking guys in the ankles, verbally abusing him and then going down like a sack of spuds if he gives you a clip is so far from manliness that it isn't funny. The new rules showed that refs are more willing to sin bin or send off (yellow card) players and players are afraid of these sanctions, new rules are needed and needed badly.

Agreed Zulu (See we can agree now and again).

The refs can't or won't impose the current rules and always take the easy option. New rules are needed that will help them and also clean up managers and players. Banty was one of the biggest mouthpiece's against the new rules but if they had been imposed, his championship game plan would have went out the window. He didn't fair too bad with the new rules and with the small stature of many of his players, he should have been using them to his advantage.

Sin bin should definatley be explored as in rugby and until teams start having to play with 12/13 players then we won't get anywhere.

This is exactly the problem - But what makes you think new rules will suddenly give them balls?

Enforce the ones we have first before adding new ones.

[JMohan]

The biggest issue here is NOT adding more rules or adding a sin bin - this is NOT the answer. Just enforce the ones we have. If a referee has balls himself he'll deal with issues he sees and if the umpires or linesmen see it then he has to act. The biggest issue is enforcement and having the balls to enforce the rules. All it would have taken is to send 3 or 4 men off today (rightly for the fouls they committed) to set the tone for the season and get things up and running. Sadly we had referees now who have cowed out for things and people now looking for a sin bin, which allows you to keep men on the field, just replace them. There's no real advantage in that now that panels are so big.

I disagree entirely there JM and I disagree with those trying to blame the ref also, what yer being is wise after the event. The ref was right IMO to be lenient in the early stages as many games have a 'getting to know you' period and often settle down after that but this one didn't because the players didn't want to. To say we don't need new sanctions is patently wrong, yesterdays game wasn't a once off, in fact it is fairly common and if refs, as JM suggests, send 3 or 4 players off early all we'll hear is bullshit about consistency or how some jumped up ref who wants to be center off attention sends off lads who have been training for this day since God created man.

If I hear some fool talk about manliness or physicality in football I'll slap him, in Aussie rules and rugby there is genuine physicality and the sly cowardly rubbish that is all too prevalent in our games is embarrassing. Kicking guys in the ankles, verbally abusing him and then going down like a sack of spuds if he gives you a clip is so far from manliness that it isn't funny. The new rules showed that refs are more willing to sin bin or send off (yellow card) players and players are afraid of these sanctions, new rules are needed and needed badly.

I can't see how new rules will help.

If someone does something wrong we punish them, yellow card. What are we doing now? Putting in another lighter penalty and confusing things and making them more complex.
We simply need the rules applied properly. Why is there only one Pat McEnenany?

[JMohan]

And as for physicality well most of what went on yesterday had nothing to do with physicality. Pulling and dragging has nothing to do with physicality.

There were some good physical tousles that were fair and the rules allowed for it, then there was the other stuff.

[orangeman]

The biggest issue here is NOT adding more rules or adding a sin bin - this is NOT the answer. Just enforce the ones we have. If a referee has balls himself he'll deal with issues he sees and if the umpires or linesmen see it then he has to act. The biggest issue is enforcement and having the balls to enforce the rules. All it would have taken is to send 3 or 4 men off today (rightly for the fouls they committed) to set the tone for the season and get things up and running. Sadly we had referees now who have cowed out for things and people now looking for a sin bin, which allows you to keep men on the field, just replace them. There's no real advantage in that now that panels are so big.

I disagree entirely there JM and I disagree with those trying to blame the ref also, what yer being is wise after the event. The ref was right IMO to be lenient in the early stages as many games have a 'getting to know you' period and often settle down after that but this one didn't because the players didn't want to. To say we don't need new sanctions is patently wrong, yesterdays game wasn't a once off, in fact it is fairly common and if refs, as JM suggests, send 3 or 4 players off early all we'll hear is bullshit about consistency or how some jumped up ref who wants to be center off attention sends off lads who have been training for this day since God created man.

If I hear some fool talk about manliness or physicality in football I'll slap him, in Aussie rules and rugby there is genuine physicality and the sly cowardly rubbish that is all too prevalent in our games is embarrassing. Kicking guys in the ankles, verbally abusing him and then going down like a sack of spuds if he gives you a clip is so far from manliness that it isn't funny. The new rules showed that refs are more willing to sin bin or send off (yellow card) players and players are afraid of these sanctions, new rules are needed and needed badly.

Agreed Zulu (See we can agree now and again).

The refs can't or won't impose the current rules and always take the easy option. New rules are needed that will help them and also clean up managers and players. Banty was one of the biggest mouthpiece's against the new rules but if they had been imposed, his championship game plan would have went out the window. He didn't fair too bad with the new rules and with the small stature of many of his players, he should have been using them to his advantage.

Sin bin should definatley be explored as in rugby and until teams start having to play with 12/13 players then we won't get anywhere.

This is exactly the problem - But what makes you think new rules will suddenly give them balls?

Enforce the ones we have first before adding new ones.

[/b]


Exactly.

[Will Hunting]

For a start, all this absolute nonsense about people saying this was a poor game! What the hell were yous all expecting? People who were expecting a cracking game yesterday in the mould of the 1994 Derry v Down game that was being talked about, know little or nothing about championship football, and ulster football in particular.

This was a nasty match, no question, but if you were offended by the first grapple on the ground then switch it over to the Celtic game or whatever and stop complaining.

Monaghan have taken the game down to a low, low level, and it was up to Derry to grind them to the point were this tactic just didn't work for them. You could see this in the last 10mins when Derry's superior ability came to the fore even with 14 men.

This would have happened yesterday no matter who Monaghan were playing - only having been beaten in the last couple of seasons, Derry knew exactly what to expect, and were ready to give Monaghan a does of their own medicine. And Monaghan bottled it when it mattered.

Job done for Derry, and i'm absolutely delighted with the result.

A few other points:

Didn't get to the game but heard that the behvaiour of the ground was dreadful as well - Monaghan "supporters" booing the introduction of Hanratty, Derry supporter getting involved with Darren Hughes in second half and alot of verbal abuse in the ground. Always has been this at games but heard it got very nasty and personal yesterday. Maybe someone can comment who was there.

I think you'll find it was Darren Hughes that got involved with the Derry supporters, not the other way around. Shows the mindset of some of these 'players'.

The numbers thing that monaghan had on their backs: the biggest horseshit idea i have ever seen. This kind of ineffective crap is right up there with naming bogey teams, and staying in the dressing room for an extra five minutes at half time.

Indiana Dublin were involved in a brutal league game against Monaghan last season

Both teams were as bad as each other. I'd be absolutely appalled if Dublin played in such a manner. It was a scandalous advert for the GAA.

Is this the match you're on about Max?:


Yeah, Dublin would never resort to thuggery! 


Anyway, great to see Derry stand up and be counted, and good to finally get one over Monaghan!

[Jinxy]

This craic of grabbing lads by the windpipe needs to be addressed too.

[lynchbhoy]

in the words of 'the hives' ...I hate to say I told you so

heres my quotes from the first couple of pages on this thread

"....and Derry have not had experienced the championship 'borderline' play that Monaghan and a few others do so well.
In the past Derry have lost the head shouting at the ref or resorting to retaliation and forgetting to play football and losing the game as a result."



"Monaghan are a lot more street wise and 'cuter' at the 'black arts' than Derry"


"As we all know, Banty has monaghan pumped up for playing for the county based on that 'nobody likes us' ' we are always written off' and that we are a small county that no one rates us craic - so the cute hoors that can play 'on the edge' of the rules have a field day.

Apart from one or two exceptions down the years (mcKeever springs to mind), Derry never had men to do that kind of craic, rather the straightforward 'mess with me , I'll deck you' attitude shown by McGilligan etc.

Its an annual worry for me to see how Derry will respond to eny subversive tactics. Will they retaliate and get sent off, will they ignore and play football, will they fight fire with fire.
the latter is usually never an option. I hope Derry can keep their heads on the gameplan and playing football ."

yesterday monaghan didnt disappoint me in how they approached the game.
Doherty deserved to get sent off for being daft and not holding on to his discipline - yes I know it was in the face of huge provocation but even still !
Mullan was fouled (rugby tackled) and no free was forthcoming for Derry and then Mullan took matters into his own hands by kneeing the chap on the deck. lying on your side its hard to measure a knee to a specific area, so if it was in the groin region, it was unlucky for the monaghan man, but mulan deserved a red for kneeing irrespective of where he made contact with.

However a huge gripe I have , being a former 'forward' myself , is the amount of frees and dirty plays a defender is allowed perportrate on a forward without the justified end result of a free.
Thats why forwards (inc me at times) would have taken matters into their own hands out of frustration. A knee isnt an acceptable manner, though for some reason I feel that a punch in the face is  ! (in some small way I have a notion that hanratty kind of got what he deserved though, and we know mullan will get what he is due too).

Monaghan try to drag teams down into a scrap and usually win thereafter. Derry just about stopped themselves being completely sucked in and therefore held on to win.
Just glad the game is over, and a Derry win. It was never going to be 'pretty'.
Best ofluck tomonaghan for the qualifiers. I wouldnt want to face them again.

[Zulu]

For a start, all this absolute nonsense about people saying this was a poor game! What the hell were yous all expecting? People who were expecting a cracking game yesterday in the mould of the 1994 Derry v Down game that was being talked about, know little or nothing about championship football, and ulster football in particular.This was a nasty match, no question, but if you were offended by the first grapple on the ground then switch it over to the Celtic game or whatever and stop complaining.

This is exactly the type of nonsense that shows how badly we need new sanctions, if you think that it is ok that football matches can turn into yesterdays type of game let alone expect it, then you are no fan of football. The fact that people are saying this game should have been expected shows just how badly we need to tackle the ills of the game.

JM the rules as they are don't work it is easy for you to say they should just implement the current rules but in the cauldrons that most championship games are it isn't that easy. A football game is played on a big pitch with 30 players, the action moves up and down the field at a ferocious pace with more collisions than any other sport which makes iot a difficult game to ref. And on top of this refs are human, they feel pressure and must be conscious of making a bad mistake i.e. sending a guy off in the wrong. The sin bin (or some other sanction) will give the ref a way to seriously punish teams without the pressure of having to send a guy off for the whole game. Anyway the point is we have had two games with a serious amount of frees and only one guy got sent off, we need a more serious sanction for persistant fouling or moderately serious/cynical fouls, if some lads still can't see this then they're blind.

[INDIANA]

Has no one had the balls to question the ref , his linesmen and umpires role in yesterdays game. Jimmy White was the ref in Omagh who was in charge of the game against Kerry and Tyrone in the national league under the experimental rules. He never flashed two many yellow cards in that game even thou we had many incidents in it also. His support team are a joke. Do his umpires just go out along with him for the day to get a few view of the game.

Indiana my point is that is how Monaghan play, how would you play gainst it, walk away fom every confrontation.

I think a lot of the way monaghan play is driven by the managers. Its as if Monaghan have adapted an attiude of nice guys finish last. Well Monaghan are still no nearer to winning an Ulster title by playing over the edge. Monaghan have plenty of good players and they don't need to resort to yesterdays level.

Ulster managers seem to think a different set of rules and conduct apply up there and this gives them an unwritten carte blanche to do whatever it takes and whatever they bloody like on the field of play. Its  childish, outdated and no excuse anymore. And people have every right to slate yesterdays game. Because it wasn't Gaelic Football and that sanctimonius, peer of the realm attitude some of the posters have here doesn't wash anymore. "How dare you criticise the Ulster football championship"- i'm sick of that sort of shite. You had 2 top 8 sides yesterday- should have been a cracking game.