The Southern "Irish"

[Evil Genius]

as for your taigs/brits out - I'd say that proves the whole point - it was all equal in killing but the mantra for republicans was to get rid of the british enforcement and let the nationalist/unionist/loyalists all come to the same conclusion as we now have.

Ah right, Republican killers were actually the enlightened ones, merely creating the conditions which would help the rest of us reach the (correct?) conclusion which we have now. I must say, I never saw it that way: should I be thanking you/them for that?

Except that there are just a couple of wee things which don't quite fit with that analysis. Let's leave aside e.g. the Kingsmill/Darkley/Stronge/Deering murders, since doubtless you've an "explanation" for why those weren't fundamentally sectarian in nature (even if the likes of Roger and me are so bigoted/deluded/brainwashed etc as not be able to comprehend it).

What I don't get is how the "conclusion" which we now enjoy courtesy of the Republican Armed Struggle, represents the achievement of "Brits Out", which was the mantra behind a campaign which directly killed over 2,000 people, the majority of whom were not in the British Armed Forces. I note your careful use of the phrase "get rid of british enforcement", but cannot see how that differs from "Brits Out".

For it seems to me that the Brits are still basically in charge of NI, whether that be demonstrated by the activities of those Brits in Government in Westminster, or in Stormont*, or in the Courts, or the PSNI, or HM Revenue & Customs, or even in the shape of the local Postie who empties our (red) Pillar Boxes on behalf of the (ahem) Royal Mail. And that's before we get to the sight of the Royal Irish Regiment marching proudly along Royal Avenue last year, being welcomed home undefeated by thousands of cheering "Brits"...

It wouldn't be that SF/IRA are re-writing History to try to conceal the guilt they feel over having killed thousands of their fellow Irishmen, women and children, in the name of a cause that they did not, indeed could not, ever achieve?  


* - And their SF collaborators  

[lynchbhoy]

as for your taigs/brits out - I'd say that proves the whole point - it was all equal in killing but the mantra for republicans was to get rid of the british enforcement and let the nationalist/unionist/loyalists all come to the same conclusion as we now have.

Ah right, Republican killers were actually the enlightened ones, merely creating the conditions which would help the rest of us reach the (correct?) conclusion which we have now. I must say, I never saw it that way: should I be thanking you/them for that?

Except that there are just a couple of wee things which don't quite fit with that analysis. Let's leave aside e.g. the Kingsmill/Darkley/Stronge/Deering murders, since doubtless you've an "explanation" for why those weren't fundamentally sectarian in nature (even if the likes of Roger and me are so bigoted/deluded/brainwashed etc as not be able to comprehend it).

What I don't get is how the "conclusion" which we now enjoy courtesy of the Republican Armed Struggle, represents the achievement of "Brits Out", which was the mantra behind a campaign which directly killed over 2,000 people, the majority of whom were not in the British Armed Forces. I note your careful use of the phrase "get rid of british enforcement", but cannot see how that differs from "Brits Out".

For it seems to me that the Brits are still basically in charge of NI, whether that be demonstrated by the activities of those Brits in Government in Westminster, or in Stormont*, or in the Courts, or the PSNI, or HM Revenue & Customs, or even in the shape of the local Postie who empties our (red) Pillar Boxes on behalf of the (ahem) Royal Mail. And that's before we get to the sight of the Royal Irish Regiment marching proudly along Royal Avenue last year, being welcomed home undefeated by thousands of cheering "Brits"...

It wouldn't be that SF/IRA are re-writing History to try to conceal the guilt they feel over having killed thousands of their fellow Irishmen, women and children, in the name of a cause that they did not, indeed could not, ever achieve?  


* - And their SF collaborators  

its not the first time I have to 'tell you' this.
From way back the 'establishment' and their apartheidesque regieme were brutalising innocent nationalists around the six counties. Many left, others that remained were subject to more of the same treatment. Keeping the taigs down etc.
The whole attempt to keep the nationalists as a second class citizenship was working , but as history shows  - you cannot be the totalitarian master forever. Stopping young nationalists getting higher ranking jobs, even trying to stop them getting decent third level education etc.
Something was going ot give. Up until then it was token aggressive retaliation.
However the whole thing just changed with the Derry situation on blody sunday.
The people knew they had to start defending themselves from the oppression and violence towards them metted out by b specials/unionist & loyalist death squads then the british army.
So the whle thing descended as we know into what is termed the troubles or the 35 years war.
At the point where the brits realised that it was too high a price to pay for a few votes in westminster plus it wasnt their country in the first place and started making plans to integrate the two warring childish factions - they began to pull back before their ultimate pulling out.

So the point has been reached where phase one has been achieved. Nationalists are no longer oppressed in daily life, jobs, education, no longer a second class citizenship, the apartheid regieme of old has been busted apart. The brit gov no longer care and want out.

I actually want them to stay, but thats a diff debate.
However the case is that phase one has been won and phase two , with the brits leaving is under way and will continue slowly until economic (and electoral register)factors change.

please try to remember this as its prob the third time I have had to 'teach' you.

[Maguire01]

What point?

go read BEFORE the part you posted 

I have tried.

I gathered that your point was that Protestants in the South had no issues with living in what was essentially a Catholic state. Indeed there are hundreds of thousands of them. Only there aren't. And the fact that their numbers have depleted so significantly since partition surely counters your argument, rather than making your point.

But do feel free to clarify. Or you could just roll your eyes again.

have they really  !
well thats news to them and the pockets of non catholics that live fully integrated with the rest of Ireland (that add up to over 100,000 - and that survey didnt inc the recent immigrants from baltic states etc)
check out any GAA or rugby club if you like...thats always a good start.

Clearly it's news to you, not them.

In 1991, the population of the Republic of Ireland was approximately 3% Protestant, but the figure was over 10% in 1891, indicating a fall of 70% in the relative Protestant population over the past century.

The effect of Protestant depopulation in the Republic of Ireland is dramatic. In 1861 only the west coast and Kilkenny had less than 6% Protestant. Dublin and 2 of the border counties had over 20% Protestant. In 1991, however, all but 4 counties have less than 6% Protestant, the rest having less than 1%. There are no counties in the Republic of Ireland which have experienced a rise in the relative Protestant population over the period 1861 to 1991.[/

And we're not talking about Ireland now - it's not a Catholic state now as it was in the past.

The immigrants from the baltic states? What has that got to do with this discussion?

but youd know I'm sure having lived down here for so long 

Down here? I've lived in the north for 20 years - i thought you did too.

[Evil Genius]

What point?

go read BEFORE the part you posted 

I have tried.

I gathered that your point was that Protestants in the South had no issues with living in what was essentially a Catholic state. Indeed there are hundreds of thousands of them. Only there aren't. And the fact that their numbers have depleted so significantly since partition surely counters your argument, rather than making your point.

But do feel free to clarify. Or you could just roll your eyes again.

have they really  !
well thats news to them and the pockets of non catholics that live fully integrated with the rest of Ireland (that add up to over 100,000 - and that survey didnt inc the recent immigrants from baltic states etc)
check out any GAA or rugby club if you like...thats always a good start.

but youd know I'm sure having lived down here for so long 

According to the 1911 Census, there were 311.461 Protestants in the 26 counties = 9.92% of population;
According to the 1926 Census, there were 207,307 Protestants in the 26 counties = 6.98% of population;
According to the 2006 Census, there were 105,695 Protestants in the 26 counties = 2.85% of population.

I cannot find exactly corresponding figures for NI, but the following is interesting:
According to the 1911 Census, there were (a maximum of*) 484,821 Roman Catholics in the 6 counties = 38.76% of population;
According to the 1961 Census, there were 502,800 Roman Catholics in the 6 counties = 35.30% of population;
According to the 2001 Census, there were 737,412 Roman Catholics in the 6 counties = 43.76% of population.
http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/popul.htm#cath

Curiously, for people bent-on "genocidal-esque" policies (as you put it), NI's Unionists weren't actually very good at pursuing a policy of "Taigs Out", whereas that bastion of tolerance and liberalism, the Free State, wasn't so good at keeping "Prods In".

Oh well, I'm sure it was all the Brits fault, really...

* - Can't extrapolate the numbers listed as neither Protestant or RC

[Billys Boots]

I think it's a 'people from cities' thing, rather than a southern ignorance regarding the North. I'd bet that a good few people from Belfast would know little about the South and in cases, little about the rest of the North outside of Belfast.
GAA people are probably better up on these things than others, due to the inter-county competitions.

I think that's about right.  I would be pretty knowledgable about Northern Ireland but when it comes to counties in the Republic I wouldn't be good at all especially with areas like Roscommon or Longford. Counties are an outdated British administrative carve-up anyway 

And for that you should be eternally grateful.

SS, you made a mistake there - you included Longford in your highlighted bit.  I'm sure you wouldn't want to be letting that stand.  No need for thanks. 

[Main Street]

There doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about dwindling nr.s of Protestants in the South.
Part of a wider trend.
For instance in England,  Anglican church goers have dwindled by a startling 100%  since 1979
(from 1.6m to .8m approx) according to  figures published by Christian Research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3089229.ece

[lynchbhoy]

What point?

go read BEFORE the part you posted 

I have tried.

I gathered that your point was that Protestants in the South had no issues with living in what was essentially a Catholic state. Indeed there are hundreds of thousands of them. Only there aren't. And the fact that their numbers have depleted so significantly since partition surely counters your argument, rather than making your point.

But do feel free to clarify. Or you could just roll your eyes again.

have they really  !
well thats news to them and the pockets of non catholics that live fully integrated with the rest of Ireland (that add up to over 100,000 - and that survey didnt inc the recent immigrants from baltic states etc)
check out any GAA or rugby club if you like...thats always a good start.

Clearly it's news to you, not them.

In 1991, the population of the Republic of Ireland was approximately 3% Protestant, but the figure was over 10% in 1891, indicating a fall of 70% in the relative Protestant population over the past century.

The effect of Protestant depopulation in the Republic of Ireland is dramatic. In 1861 only the west coast and Kilkenny had less than 6% Protestant. Dublin and 2 of the border counties had over 20% Protestant. In 1991, however, all but 4 counties have less than 6% Protestant, the rest having less than 1%. There are no counties in the Republic of Ireland which have experienced a rise in the relative Protestant population over the period 1861 to 1991.[/

And we're not talking about Ireland now - it's not a Catholic state now as it was in the past.

The immigrants from the baltic states? What has that got to do with this discussion?

but youd know I'm sure having lived down here for so long 

Down here? I've lived in the north for 20 years - i thought you did too.

better spell out the point as its going over your head
The point being that being protestant or non catholic has not held any problems for people in the 26 counties

also finally, you assume far too much !

[lynchbhoy]

According to the 1911 Census, there were 311.461 Protestants in the 26 counties = 9.92% of population;
According to the 1926 Census, there were 207,307 Protestants in the 26 counties = 6.98% of population;
According to the 2006 Census, there were 105,695 Protestants in the 26 counties = 2.85% of population.

I cannot find exactly corresponding figures for NI, but the following is interesting:
According to the 1911 Census, there were (a maximum of*) 484,821 Roman Catholics in the 6 counties = 38.76% of population;
According to the 1961 Census, there were 502,800 Roman Catholics in the 6 counties = 35.30% of population;
According to the 2001 Census, there were 737,412 Roman Catholics in the 6 counties = 43.76% of population.
http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/popul.htm#cath

Curiously, for people bent-on "genocidal-esque" policies (as you put it), NI's Unionists weren't actually very good at pursuing a policy of "Taigs Out", whereas that bastion of tolerance and liberalism, the Free State, wasn't so good at keeping "Prods In".

Oh well, I'm sure it was all the Brits fault, really...

* - Can't extrapolate the numbers listed as neither Protestant or RC

ok , so you lose one argument and try to pick up upon another.
so the protestant population is lesening in the 26 counties.
Its not because they have been persecuted, oppressed or had state forces and the local militia that they back up attacking them willy nilly (as had been the case upon nationialists in the 6 counties).

whatever other point you are attempting to make is equally as unfounded and daft as per usual !
Write as many paragraphs as you do, but as ever you try to circumvent any point rather than make or address one let alone come close to giving any adequate support for things such as my above argument!

[lynchbhoy]

There doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about dwindling nr.s of Protestants in the South.
Part of a wider trend.
For instance in England,  Anglican church goers have dwindled by a startling 100%  since 1979
(from 1.6m to .8m approx) according to  figures published by Christian Research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3089229.ece

but I am sure 'we blame the brits' 

[Roger]

Roger, he said religion wasnt a reason for the republicans targetting people.
You pointed out 2 incidents which contradict this.

We get it.

Lynchboys general gist is correct though, with the few exceptions which you kindly pointed out for us.

Thanks HH
I was starting to think I was being unclear 

now we know what the problem is ...same old same old - the ostrich game!

The two instances given were from a time when you were talking about nationalists fighting back.  These were sectarian fueled slaughter by republicans.  At that time which you were talking about, I believe republicans to have been really rather sectarian before they changed tack and tried to give credibility to their terrorism by developing the solely fighting the Brits matnra, even though that simply meant shooting off-duty security force Prods and their families and then running off to hide in amongst one section of the by-then polarized communities.  The message then changed and has since been delivered for public consumption as a desire for Prod, Taig and Dissenter to be as one in a socialist republic with the Brits out of Ireland, mixed in with a dollop of their fleg being peace between green and orange.  

At the time I was talking about, I would contend that northern republicans and Provos were rather anti-Prod and unionists were beyond hope in their mind, whilst the Official IRA developed a more Political approach which actively tried to convince Prods to unite with them.  Funnily enough it's exactly what the Provos now seem to have decided is the best way forward for them.  That is why I believe it wrong for you to say republicans never targeted people on the basis of their religion, as I believe the Provos played to and stoked up the most basic level of sectarianism in the early 70s in order to start their revolution as they didn't care how it started as long as it did.  The PIRA developed this beyond localised sectarian murder and division and subsequently cynically used and took human life throughout their terror campaign on all sides of the community and indeed further afield.

[lynchbhoy]

Roger, he said religion wasnt a reason for the republicans targetting people.
You pointed out 2 incidents which contradict this.

We get it.

Lynchboys general gist is correct though, with the few exceptions which you kindly pointed out for us.

Thanks HH
I was starting to think I was being unclear 

now we know what the problem is ...same old same old - the ostrich game!

The two instances given were from a time when you were talking about nationalists fighting back.  These were sectarian fueled slaughter by republicans.  At that time which you were talking about, I believe republicans to have been really rather sectarian before they changed tack and tried to give credibility to their terrorism by developing the solely fighting the Brits matnra, even though that simply meant shooting off-duty security force Prods and their families and then running off to hide in amongst one section of the by-then polarized communities.  The message then changed and has since been delivered for public consumption as a desire for Prod, Taig and Dissenter to be as one in a socialist republic with the Brits out of Ireland, mixed in with a dollop of their fleg being peace between green and orange.  

At the time I was talking about, I would contend that northern republicans and Provos were rather anti-Prod and unionists were beyond hope in their mind, whilst the Official IRA developed a more Political approach which actively tried to convince Prods to unite with them.  Funnily enough it's exactly what the Provos now seem to have decided is the best way forward for them.  That is why I believe it wrong for you to say republicans never targeted people on the basis of their religion, as I believe the Provos played to and stoked up the most basic level of sectarianism in the early 70s in order to start their revolution as they didn't care how it started as long as it did.  The PIRA developed this beyond localised sectarian murder and division and subsequently cynically used and took human life throughout their terror campaign on all sides of the community and indeed further afield.

that would be a common perception from folk from your side of the divide.
I can see where you are coming from but I can say that being on the other side of the coin and from what was said and the mindsets abound with such people at those times, I have to disagree with your sentiments as this is not what provos, provo supporters and other types of 'Ra heads would be thinking.
I would bet there was a number of people scattered through the 6 counties who did have the mentality you suggest, and I would go further to say they still exist.
But I see similar (and more of) this kind of mentality on th eunionist/loyalist side to be honest.

dont think we are going to agree ...do you !

[Roger]

dont think we are going to agree ...do you !

I'm not sure whether perception is relevant.  In the early 70s the IRA did kill people for solely being Protestant and those two instances in South ARmagh were hardly done by the poor wee downtrodden taigs under the jackboot of Brit occupation in IReland.  The South Armagh IRA have always had a pretty affluent life-style imo.  Amazing how much money you can find in hay sheds down those parts.

Are we going to agree? No, you seem to be supportive of republican's murder campaign and I cannot agree with that whether you believe it sectarian or anti-British or both.  However, the IRA did kill people for solely being Protestant, now they want to "convince" unionists whom they've been bombing/shooting at for years with Anderson, the convicted terrorist Anderson!! If it wasn't so pathetic you could laugh at them.

[Myles Na G.]

What point?

go read BEFORE the part you posted 

I have tried.

I gathered that your point was that Protestants in the South had no issues with living in what was essentially a Catholic state. Indeed there are hundreds of thousands of them. Only there aren't. And the fact that their numbers have depleted so significantly since partition surely counters your argument, rather than making your point.

But do feel free to clarify. Or you could just roll your eyes again.

have they really  !
well thats news to them and the pockets of non catholics that live fully integrated with the rest of Ireland (that add up to over 100,000 - and that survey didnt inc the recent immigrants from baltic states etc)
check out any GAA or rugby club if you like...thats always a good start.

Clearly it's news to you, not them.

In 1991, the population of the Republic of Ireland was approximately 3% Protestant, but the figure was over 10% in 1891, indicating a fall of 70% in the relative Protestant population over the past century.

The effect of Protestant depopulation in the Republic of Ireland is dramatic. In 1861 only the west coast and Kilkenny had less than 6% Protestant. Dublin and 2 of the border counties had over 20% Protestant. In 1991, however, all but 4 counties have less than 6% Protestant, the rest having less than 1%. There are no counties in the Republic of Ireland which have experienced a rise in the relative Protestant population over the period 1861 to 1991.[/

And we're not talking about Ireland now - it's not a Catholic state now as it was in the past.

The immigrants from the baltic states? What has that got to do with this discussion?

but youd know I'm sure having lived down here for so long 

Down here? I've lived in the north for 20 years - i thought you did too.

better spell out the point as its going over your head
The point being that being protestant or non catholic has not held any problems for people in the 26 counties

also finally, you assume far too much !

That's the second time you've used that term in as many posts. I don't think you appreciate how arrogant it sounds. How would you feel if someone were to announce that there are two kinds of football supporter in the world, Rangers fans and non Rangers fans. The rest of the world should not be defined by the fact that they don't belong to the Catholic church.

[lynchbhoy]

dont think we are going to agree ...do you !

I'm not sure whether perception is relevant.  In the early 70s the IRA did kill people for solely being Protestant and those two instances in South ARmagh were hardly done by the poor wee downtrodden taigs under the jackboot of Brit occupation in IReland.  The South Armagh IRA have always had a pretty affluent life-style imo.  Amazing how much money you can find in hay sheds down those parts.

Are we going to agree? No, you seem to be supportive of republican's murder campaign and I cannot agree with that whether you believe it sectarian or anti-British or both.  However, the IRA did kill people for solely being Protestant, now they want to "convince" unionists whom they've been bombing/shooting at for years with Anderson, the convicted terrorist Anderson!! If it wasn't so pathetic you could laugh at them.

this is all formed from your 'opinion' and 'perception'
its not fact and instancesof who was killed and so on dont prove a whole lot.  Killing peopl eis nonsensical at the best of times and while you can throw all you like at my opinions of 'murder campaigns' etc etc
it does not get away from the fact that these people had to do so to protect themselves from further oppression, persecution, apartheid and near/effectively genocidal acts from the people that were suppposed to be upholding the law - and they did so by aiding and abbetting the equally  murderous unionist/ loyalist death squads.
so if you wish to condemn people, then first do so on the people that caused this shame.
Then you can cast the stones on the nationalists that felt they had to take to arms etc. BUT and there is a pause here, you have to admit that there was some serious life threatening reasons of survival that caused the formation of the IRA and nationalists to go to war.
None of your self righteous babble about supporting murder campaigns etc can gloss over this.

I am supportive of the nationalist peoples right to life and to live not as second class citizens. That the unionist/loyalist establishment had to be taught this by retaliation is sad.
I know for a fact that when the power swwings over to the nationalist/Irish people, this same kind of persecution mentality wont be reciprocated.

[lynchbhoy]

What point?

go read BEFORE the part you posted 

I have tried.

I gathered that your point was that Protestants in the South had no issues with living in what was essentially a Catholic state. Indeed there are hundreds of thousands of them. Only there aren't. And the fact that their numbers have depleted so significantly since partition surely counters your argument, rather than making your point.

But do feel free to clarify. Or you could just roll your eyes again.

have they really  !
well thats news to them and the pockets of non catholics that live fully integrated with the rest of Ireland (that add up to over 100,000 - and that survey didnt inc the recent immigrants from baltic states etc)
check out any GAA or rugby club if you like...thats always a good start.

Clearly it's news to you, not them.

In 1991, the population of the Republic of Ireland was approximately 3% Protestant, but the figure was over 10% in 1891, indicating a fall of 70% in the relative Protestant population over the past century.

The effect of Protestant depopulation in the Republic of Ireland is dramatic. In 1861 only the west coast and Kilkenny had less than 6% Protestant. Dublin and 2 of the border counties had over 20% Protestant. In 1991, however, all but 4 counties have less than 6% Protestant, the rest having less than 1%. There are no counties in the Republic of Ireland which have experienced a rise in the relative Protestant population over the period 1861 to 1991.[/

And we're not talking about Ireland now - it's not a Catholic state now as it was in the past.

The immigrants from the baltic states? What has that got to do with this discussion?

but youd know I'm sure having lived down here for so long 

Down here? I've lived in the north for 20 years - i thought you did too.

better spell out the point as its going over your head
The point being that being protestant or non catholic has not held any problems for people in the 26 counties

also finally, you assume far too much !

That's the second time you've used that term in as many posts. I don't think you appreciate how arrogant it sounds. How would you feel if someone were to announce that there are two kinds of football supporter in the world, Rangers fans and non Rangers fans. The rest of the world should not be defined by the fact that they don't belong to the Catholic church.

the topic was the mindset of non catholics in the 26 counties
get over yourself or are you some kind of amadan