The Southern "Irish"

[Maguire01]

There doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about dwindling nr.s of Protestants in the South.
Part of a wider trend.
For instance in England,  Anglican church goers have dwindled by a startling 100%  since 1979
(from 1.6m to .8m approx) according to  figures published by Christian Research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3089229.ece

That's church attendance. A different thing altogether. If the census was based on church attendance rather than religious background, there would be a lot fewer people under the 'Catholic' or 'Protestant' headings.

[Roger]

My opinion and perception is pretty valid when republicans burst into a church meeting and shoot those attending.   What perception and opinion are people to conclude? FFS catch yourself on.

[Maguire01]

better spell out the point as its going over your head

Clearly.

The point being that being protestant or non catholic has not held any problems for people in the 26 counties

On what basis do you make that assumption? On the basis that the proportion of Protestant people in the 26 counties has fallen from 10% to 3%? Or have you other reasons to back it up.

also finally, you assume far too much !

What assumptions am i making? Are you the only one allowed to make assumptions? Is it okay for me to 'assume', if it agrees with you?

[lynchbhoy]

My opinion and perception is pretty valid when republicans burst into a church meeting and shoot those attending.   What perception and opinion are people to conclude? FFS catch yourself on.

and that contitutes that republicanism and its mantra was purely to kill protestants ?
No I am afraid that we are back to square one and you are incorrect with this assertion.
Are you going to get around to what caused the violence in the first place?

[lynchbhoy]

better spell out the point as its going over your head

Clearly.

The point being that being protestant or non catholic has not held any problems for people in the 26 counties

On what basis do you make that assumption? On the basis that the proportion of Protestant people in the 26 counties has fallen from 10% to 3%? Or have you other reasons to back it up.

also finally, you assume far too much !

What assumptions am i making? Are you the only one allowed to make assumptions? Is it okay for me to 'assume', if it agrees with you?

still missing the point that people in the 26 counties (irrespective of you red herring about howmany or even how few) were treated fairly and similarly to all others regardless of religion.
Proving the point we have had multitudes of protestants elected that were TD's, Irish presidents and GAA presidents etc.
So how were protestants badly affected ?

you assume I live in the 6 counties!

[Main Street]

There doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about dwindling nr.s of Protestants in the South.
Part of a wider trend.
For instance in England,  Anglican church goers have dwindled by a startling 100%  since 1979
(from 1.6m to .8m approx) according to  figures published by Christian Research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3089229.ece

That's church attendance. A different thing altogether. If the census was based on church attendance rather than religious background, there would be a lot fewer people under the 'Catholic' or 'Protestant' headings.

I am not sure of your point.
It is different but not entirely different.
You would have to provide accurate enough churchgoing stats in Ireland about Protestant churchgoing and measure it's decline.
The census stats are far from an accurate indicator.
Because the Irish census decline in numbers who claim to be  Protestant is not matched by a similar decline in nrs who claim to be Catholics could well reflect that Irish Catholic numbers buck the decline trend evident in many other countries. Irish catholicism could well be a particularly resiliant brand of conservative religion.

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7112

While around half of the British population believe in a God, some 72% told the 2001 census that they were Christian. Yet 65% of the population have no significant connection to any religion or church, it seems.

There has been a dramatic decline in regular churchgoing between 1979 and 2005, and organised religion in Britain has suffered an immense decline since the 1950s and 1960s.

"Arguing about the latest statistics misses the point," commented Simon Barrow, co-director of the religion and society think-tank Ekklesia. "The overall trend for many years has been a falling away of active affiliation from inherited church institutions."

[Maguire01]

still missing the point that people in the 26 counties (irrespective of you red herring about howmany or even how few) were treated fairly and similarly to all others regardless of religion.
Proving the point we have had multitudes of protestants elected that were TD's, Irish presidents and GAA presidents etc.
So how were protestants badly affected ?

I'm not missing the point at all. Yes, many Protestants have prospered in the Republic. And no, there wasn't widespread discrimination against them as there was against Catholics in Northern Ireland.
And yes, there are a number of reasons for their decline (significantly inter-faith marriages and Catholic Church's insistence on children from such marriages being Catholic).
I'd be interested to hear your understanding of why the number of Protestants in RoI have dropped so significantly. I think it's a bit cheap to just dismiss it as a red herring.

you assume I live in the 6 counties!

Well if you don't live in the 6 counties, then you're from the 6 counties. A fair assumption on the basis of your avatar. I'm happy to stand corrected.

[Maguire01]

There doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about dwindling nr.s of Protestants in the South.
Part of a wider trend.
For instance in England,  Anglican church goers have dwindled by a startling 100%  since 1979
(from 1.6m to .8m approx) according to  figures published by Christian Research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3089229.ece

That's church attendance. A different thing altogether. If the census was based on church attendance rather than religious background, there would be a lot fewer people under the 'Catholic' or 'Protestant' headings.

I am not sure of your point.
It is different but not entirely different.
You would have to provide accurate enough churchgoing stats in Ireland about Protestant churchgoing and measure it's decline.
The census stats are far from an accurate indicator.
Because the Irish census decline in numbers who claim to be  Protestant is not matched by a similar decline in nrs who claim to be Catholics could well reflect that Irish Catholic numbers buck the decline trend evident in many other countries. Irish catholicism could well be a particularly resiliant brand of conservative religion.

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7112

While around half of the British population believe in a God, some 72% told the 2001 census that they were Christian. Yet 65% of the population have no significant connection to any religion or church, it seems.

There has been a dramatic decline in regular churchgoing between 1979 and 2005, and organised religion in Britain has suffered an immense decline since the 1950s and 1960s.

"Arguing about the latest statistics misses the point," commented Simon Barrow, co-director of the religion and society think-tank Ekklesia. "The overall trend for many years has been a falling away of active affiliation from inherited church institutions."

My point was simply that the number of Protestants who go to Church is not necessarily an accurate indicator of the total number of Protestants. Added to that, 'church attendance' data must be extremely crude. How is it measured? It's not like churches keep a record of numbers through the door. I'd imagine the census would be significantly more reliable.

[lynchbhoy]

still missing the point that people in the 26 counties (irrespective of you red herring about howmany or even how few) were treated fairly and similarly to all others regardless of religion.
Proving the point we have had multitudes of protestants elected that were TD's, Irish presidents and GAA presidents etc.
So how were protestants badly affected ?

I'm not missing the point at all. Yes, many Protestants have prospered in the Republic. And no, there wasn't widespread discrimination against them as there was against Catholics in Northern Ireland.
And yes, there are a number of reasons for their decline (significantly inter-faith marriages and Catholic Church's insistence on children from such marriages being Catholic).
I'd be interested to hear your understanding of why the number of Protestants in RoI have dropped so significantly. I think it's a bit cheap to just dismiss it as a red herring.

you assume I live in the 6 counties!

Well if you don't live in the 6 counties, then you're from the 6 counties. A fair assumption on the basis of your avatar. I'm happy to stand corrected.

I dont really care about why the numbers have dropped - coul dit be that people of protestant faith like those of catholic faith no longer give a fiddlers ?
either way it doesnt matter to my point,you brought up the aspect of numbers (I was incorrect saying multiples of hundred thousands when its only one hundred thousand)
either way its off track.

yes to your second question, but again thats in relation to the point you posed , I merely answered it (eg 'down here' which I am).

[Evil Genius]

There doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about dwindling nr.s of Protestants in the South.
Part of a wider trend.
For instance in England,  Anglican church goers have dwindled by a startling 100%  since 1979
(from 1.6m to .8m approx) according to  figures published by Christian Research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3089229.ece

Bloody Hell! That's up there with your post about the "banning" of Jim Murphy and Ziggy from OWC for idiocy!  

The statistics I quoted about Protestants and RC's etc in Ireland were of those who identified themselves as belonging to the respective communities by census. They were not a reflection of their church-going habits.

For the purposes of this argument, I would be considered an NI "Prod", despite the fact that I am actually an Atheist who, weddings or funerals aside, hasn't set foot in Church or Chapel for decades.  

[Main Street]

My point was simply that the number of Protestants who go to Church is not necessarily an accurate indicator of the total number of Protestants. Added to that, 'church attendance' data must be extremely crude. How is it measured? It's not like churches keep a record of numbers through the door. I'd imagine the census would be significantly more reliable.

Why would you imagine the census stats are significantly more reliable to reflect ones faith than churchgoing figures?

All common sense points to churchgoing as a much more sound indicator. This is what an organised religion expect as a minimum from those they regard as being of their faith.
Reseasch has been professionally carried out by Christian Research, the methods used and figures obtained are published formally and have not been challenged. In fact they have been more or less accepted.
Attendance is broken down to daily, weekly, fortnightly, monthly, quaterly,, bi annual or annual attendance.

Census stats are just the result of a mere mark on a page, what effort it takes to put a stroke in the right box?
Churchgoing is measured by visible bums on seats.
It's a no brainer which of the  statistics carry more weight.

[milltown row]

so what are we talking about here?  who's right and who's wrong? does it matter? will it make a difference? and what the F*uck is happening on Lost

[Main Street]

There doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about dwindling nr.s of Protestants in the South.
Part of a wider trend.
For instance in England,  Anglican church goers have dwindled by a startling 100%  since 1979
(from 1.6m to .8m approx) according to  figures published by Christian Research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3089229.ece

Bloody Hell! That's up there with your post about the "banning" of Jim Murphy and Ziggy from OWC for idiocy!  

Which indicates that you have a peculiar understanding of idiocy

The statistics I quoted about Protestants and RC's etc in Ireland were of those who identified themselves as belonging to the respective communities by census. They were not a reflection of their church-going habits.

So what.

For the purposes of this argument

What argument are you talking about?

I would be considered an NI "Prod", despite the fact that I am actually an Atheist who, weddings or funerals aside, hasn't set foot in Church or Chapel for decades.  

Which is anecdotal proof that census stats mean feck all

[armaghniac]

Curiously, for people bent-on "genocidal-esque" policies (as you put it), NI's Unionists weren't actually very good at pursuing a policy of "Taigs Out", whereas that bastion of tolerance and liberalism, the Free State, wasn't so good at keeping "Prods In".

A couple of points about this. This intermarriage thing would have had exactly the same effect regardless of the government in power, this resulted from social relationships freely entered into. But many protestants in the ROI were descended from those who changed religion when the times suited, to preserve land inheritance in penal times, soupers and so on. These people didn't place much value on being protestants and hardly regarded changing back as major trauma.

But as a general point from the 1920's to the 1960's Britain was twice as prosperous as the 26 counties, if you thought of yourself as British it is perfectly logical to go to the place you identify with, especially as it is more prosperous. What is less reasonable are those who identify with Britain but rather than just going there who persist in staying here causing trouble.

People who regard themselves simply as Irish citizens have done well in the ROI from all faiths.  

[Evil Genius]

still missing the point that people in the 26 counties (irrespective of you red herring about howmany or even how few) were treated fairly and similarly to all others regardless of religion.
Proving the point we have had multitudes of protestants elected that were TD's, Irish presidents and GAA presidents etc.
So how were protestants badly affected ?

I'm not missing the point at all. Yes, many Protestants have prospered in the Republic. And no, there wasn't widespread discrimination against them as there was against Catholics in Northern Ireland.
And yes, there are a number of reasons for their decline (significantly inter-faith marriages and Catholic Church's insistence on children from such marriages being Catholic).
I'd be interested to hear your understanding of why the number of Protestants in RoI have dropped so significantly. I think it's a bit cheap to just dismiss it as a red herring.

you assume I live in the 6 counties!

Well if you don't live in the 6 counties, then you're from the 6 counties. A fair assumption on the basis of your avatar. I'm happy to stand corrected.

I dont really care about why the numbers have dropped - coul dit be that people of protestant faith like those of catholic faith no longer give a fiddlers ?
either way it doesnt matter to my point,you brought up the aspect of numbers (I was incorrect saying multiples of hundred thousands when its only one hundred thousand)
either way its off track.

The numbers of those identifying themselves as "Protestant" in the ROI have declined by two thirds since Partition i.e. from just over 300k, to just over 100k. The fact that many may no longer "give a fiddlers" about organised religion is irrelevant, since that also applies to RC's, yet the proportion of "Neithers" etc has not increased correspondingly.
Therefore, that social/religious/ethnic grouping commonly identified as "Protestants" has now declined to an extent as to be deemed "statistically irrelevant" by demographers.
Now I'm not claiming that this alarming drop was solely down to intimidation and violence - although that was undoubtedly a factor for a significant number, including some of my own relatives. (Or just Google "Cork"+"Protestants" etc to see how many were forced out from there at gunpoint during the early 1920's).
Nor would I claim that straightforward Discrimination in the Republic was to blame, either, (though I know of examples of that, too).
But as Maguire01 has pointed out, objectionable Catholic religious zealotry such as the Ne Temere Doctrine (which has no direct equivalent in Protestantism, btw) has specifically led to a decline in numbers, reinforced by a state which openly espoused the "Special Positition" of Catholicism in its very Constitution.
And more generally, there was a feeling by many Protestants that if life in the Republic was tolerable, even privileged for some, nonetheless it was not a welcoming place for them, nor never would be, so long as they insisted on choosing a different path from that of the majority.  
Consequently, the choice for many was Conversion, Emigration or Re-Settlement North of the Border.

Still, Sam Maguire was a Prod, so there can have been nothing to complain about, can there?