Gaelic Football - Rules & Regulations discussion/clarification

[thewobbler]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

Yep.

It's a small data set, I know. But I'm not sure a case exists yet in county or club football whereby a team's results have improved after enabling a roaming keeper.

[thebigfullforward]

As said, Morgan is equally at home in the small box as on the halfway line. He is a top keeper in the traditional sense so I suppose he's not the best example as he can do both roles well.
Plus while some of his play can be slow he's also one of the best passers on the Tyrone team. Especially longer range. He has set up plenty of break out attacks with a well delivered long ball.
Morgan has been going upfield regularly for a number of years. He's been caught out a number of times, but his impact on the team has been significant. If other outfield players aren't having a similar impact going forward then that is on them to improve. I don't foresee Morgan's role being restricted regardless of how these rules changes go. He's just too influential to play as a standard, on his line keeper. 

This is exactly it. Anybody that has watched Tyrone over the past 3 years knows this. All well and good saying the outfield players can do what Morgan can do and they probably could. The problem is that they weren't doing it. Now that the rules have changed and 3 players can't attack it places even more responsibilty on Morgan to do what he's been doing

[JoG2]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

Yep.

It's a small data set, I know. But I'm not sure a case exists yet in county or club football whereby a team's results have improved after enabling a roaming keeper.

Regardless of the data set size, it's a moot point as we're now into a new chapter of football. What went before has no real baring on what will happen from this season on. 12 v 11 is something that will absolutely be exploited to the full. As a coach you're always trying to gain a numerical advantage, well 1 is being handed to them on a plate. Tyrone is ahead of the curve atm, the rest, will have to catch up

[gallsman]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

Yep.

It's a small data set, I know. But I'm not sure a case exists yet in county or club football whereby a team's results have improved after enabling a roaming keeper.

Ok, so it's a small data set, but these are "hard cold facts"?

Out of curiosity, how come you chose 3 years? Why not go back 4? Did something perhaps happen in 2001 that might invalidate your argument a touch?

I don't really care either way, but don't present little more then speculation as fact ffs.

FWIW btw, Shane Ryan is categorically NOT a traditional 'keeper, famously playing out the field for Rathmore. You might not find him as far forward as frequently as Morgan, but he doesn't stand on his line for 70 mins.

[thebigfullforward]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

Yep.

It's a small data set, I know. But I'm not sure a case exists yet in county or club football whereby a team's results have improved after enabling a roaming keeper.

Regardless of the data set size, it's a moot point as we're now into a new chapter of football. What went before has no real baring on what will happen from this season on. 12 v 11 is something that will absolutely be exploited to the full. As a coach you're always trying to gain a numerical advantage, well 1 is being handed to them on a plate. Tyrone is ahead of the curve atm, the rest, will have to catch up

You're 100% right. It would almost be idiotic for teams to not take advantage of a 12v11 situation if they have a keeper that can do it. If you have a player like Morgan and you don't use him to get forward when 3 outfield players have been banned from doing so you shouldn't be in management

[thewobbler]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

Yep.

It's a small data set, I know. But I'm not sure a case exists yet in county or club football whereby a team's results have improved after enabling a roaming keeper.

Ok, so it's a small data set, but these are "hard cold facts"?

Out of curiosity, how come you chose 3 years? Why not go back 4? Did something perhaps happen in 2001 that might invalidate your argument a touch?

I don't really care either way, but don't present little more then speculation as fact ffs.

Jesus you're angsty.

Why 3 years?

Because that's roughly around the same time that roaming keepers took off.

For example, when Tyrone won the 2021 AI, Morgan was predominately a keeper who rarely left his own 45, apart from for long range frees.

Since then, Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, Galway, Monaghan and to some extent Mayo (I'm focusing on top flight teams here btw) have all pursued a strategy of keepers becoming link men through the opposition's half.

And it hasn't, yet, worked out for any of them.

——

I notice your edit on Ryan.

And now you're just being difficult.

A goalkeeper empowered and willing to help out his defence is not even remotely the same concept as the goalkeeper who end up in forward positions. Don't compare the two. It's like comparing a centre half forward with a corner back. 

[scout]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

Yep.

It's a small data set, I know. But I'm not sure a case exists yet in county or club football whereby a team's results have improved after enabling a roaming keeper.

Ok, so it's a small data set, but these are "hard cold facts"?

Out of curiosity, how come you chose 3 years? Why not go back 4? Did something perhaps happen in 2001 that might invalidate your argument a touch?

I don't really care either way, but don't present little more then speculation as fact ffs.

Jesus you're angsty.

Why 3 years?

Because that's roughly around the same time that roaming keepers took off.

For example, when Tyrone won the 2021 AI, Morgan was predominately a keeper who rarely left his own 45, apart from for long range frees.

Since then, Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, Galway, Monaghan and to some extent Mayo (I'm focusing on top flight teams here btw) have all pursued a strategy of keepers becoming link men through the opposition's half.

And it hasn't, yet, worked out for any of them.

——

I notice your edit on Ryan.

And now you're just being difficult.

A goalkeeper empowered and willing to help out his defence is not even remotely the same concept as the goalkeeper who end up in forward positions. Don't compare the two. It's like comparing a centre half forward with a corner back. 

Your point of 2021 is absolutely invalid. 2021 was the same year where at one point of the game, Niall Morgan was marking Rory Beggan in the monaghans half in the Ulster final.


He was scoring points from play as early as 2019 (see Roscommon NFL) when Harte was still manager.

[Armagh18]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

When has the non traditional keeper ever won Sam? Tyrone in '21 just with Morgan?

Cluxton was obviously hugely influential over the years but not by coming up during open play, Blaine Hughes last year came up a bit but more of a pivot man, both those keepers had great impacts with their kickouts.

Surely it's bound to change this year with the 12 v 11, theres a great chance to use the extra man. Even what Armagh did with Ethan Rafferty the other night, if you're chasing a game bring on a non traditional keeper and throw caution to the wind, wonder will Donegal try that with Murphy.

[Captain Obvious]

Where is the sense in getting two points for a long range free and only one point for a 45?

[Armagh18]

Where is the sense in getting two points for a long range free and only one point for a 45?

Don't think 45's deserve it, but if you were to make frees 1 point then teams will just foul constantly around the arc rather than risk 2 pointers.

Say for example your corner back makes a great last ditch tackle or block to prevent a goal, ball goes for 45, I don't think they deserve to concede 2 points from what is for a lot of players a simple kick from a 45. You may not agree but thats the thinking.

[balladmaker]

Where is the sense in getting two points for a long range free and only one point for a 45?

Frees should at least have to be taken from where they are awarded.  Moving the ball back from a 1 point location to a 2 pointer does not seem right to me.  I get the 2 points for a long range shot from play, it rewards skill ... less so from a dead ball free.

[Milltown Row2]

Where is the sense in getting two points for a long range free and only one point for a 45?

Frees should at least have to be taken from where they are awarded.  Moving the ball back from a 1 point location to a 2 pointer does not seem right to me.  I get the 2 points for a long range shot from play, it rewards skill ... less so from a dead ball free.

If the free occurred originally outside the 40 and was brought forward, the player has he option. He can't bring it out if the free happened inside the 40, so if we keep our gobs closed they won't have that ability to have the handy 2 pointers from frees.

[Rossfan]

Do the crime do the time!

[Main Street]

I was at the Cavan Monaghan game at the weekend. Thoughts on the new rules:

1v1 throw in: irrelevant enough. makes no difference either way.

dissent rule: has to be binned straight away. The ref brought the ball up about 10 times for 'dissent', most of which are questionable. 50m is a ridiculous penalty and wont be managable at the club game as it gives the referee too much influence. By the 2nd half on Saturday, the crowd were actually laughing at the decisions for this farcical rule. 

the 3 inside: is workable. appears to be self policed by the players. It creates less congestion in the defending end and attacks can be penetrated better with more space available.

kick outs beyond 40m: very good addition. created a lot of aerial battles and duals.

2 point arc: will influence the game a lot, particularly if strength of the wind increases/decreases etc. Th downside of it is that is completely devalues a goal.

solo and go: quicks the game. very difficulty for the defender though.

no back pass for the goalie: good addition too. created more pressing high up.

roaming goalie in attacking half: teams choice. Both teams adopted this on Saturday. Monaghan probably won the game as their keeper was better at being the 'spare man'. If this stays, there will be less 'natural' keepers in no. 1 and id imagine managers will revert to a midfielder with a good place ball kick.

overall it was a good open game with plenty of entertainment for the supporters.

Are you implying the ref will go out of his way to move the ball forward for dissent? Think its simple enough, players don't stop a quick solo/free and don't talk back to ref after he has given his decision and reason why. Not sure on the only captains rule but hey ho

If that were only so.
Some refs penalised the "stop a quick free" with dogmatic reference to this (nonsensical) answer offered by the FRC.

If I over-carry the ball and the referee calls a foul, can I not just drop the ball and get myself into a defensive position?

A. No. In this scenario if you don't "hand over" the ball by giving it directly to the nearest opposition player in a prompt and respectful manner, the referee will consider that you are purposefully delay play will advance the ball 50m 

[Milltown Row2]

I was at the Cavan Monaghan game at the weekend. Thoughts on the new rules:

1v1 throw in: irrelevant enough. makes no difference either way.

dissent rule: has to be binned straight away. The ref brought the ball up about 10 times for 'dissent', most of which are questionable. 50m is a ridiculous penalty and wont be managable at the club game as it gives the referee too much influence. By the 2nd half on Saturday, the crowd were actually laughing at the decisions for this farcical rule. 

the 3 inside: is workable. appears to be self policed by the players. It creates less congestion in the defending end and attacks can be penetrated better with more space available.

kick outs beyond 40m: very good addition. created a lot of aerial battles and duals.

2 point arc: will influence the game a lot, particularly if strength of the wind increases/decreases etc. Th downside of it is that is completely devalues a goal.

solo and go: quicks the game. very difficulty for the defender though.

no back pass for the goalie: good addition too. created more pressing high up.

roaming goalie in attacking half: teams choice. Both teams adopted this on Saturday. Monaghan probably won the game as their keeper was better at being the 'spare man'. If this stays, there will be less 'natural' keepers in no. 1 and id imagine managers will revert to a midfielder with a good place ball kick.

overall it was a good open game with plenty of entertainment for the supporters.

Are you implying the ref will go out of his way to move the ball forward for dissent? Think its simple enough, players don't stop a quick solo/free and don't talk back to ref after he has given his decision and reason why. Not sure on the only captains rule but hey ho

If that were only so.
Some refs penalised the "stop a quick free" with dogmatic reference to this (nonsensical) answer offered by the FRC.

If I over-carry the ball and the referee calls a foul, can I not just drop the ball and get myself into a defensive position?

A. No. In this scenario if you don't "hand over" the ball by giving it directly to the nearest opposition player in a prompt and respectful manner, the referee will consider that you are purposefully delay play will advance the ball 50m 

That's rule, gives it to the nearest player. Just don't over carry the ball should sort that scenario out though