Gaelic Football - Rules & Regulations discussion/clarification

[thebigfullforward]

Paddy Tally is on the ball when he says that the attacking goalkeeper is killing the game by giving the attacking team a 12 v 11 advantage. Goalkeepers should be confined to their own small parallelogram.

In my opinion the 40m arc and 2-pointers are no addition to the game. The pattern of attacking play now revolves mainly around this arc and completely changes the nature of the game that we knew before the possession game took over.

Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness may have brought success to their counties with their tactics but their legacy is a bastardised game.

Maybe if teams pushed up and didn't retreat into the 40m zone then the keeper doesn't become such a threat.

The issue here isn't the rule so much as the culture within GAA management teams for convoluting things, and for pushing the rulebook to create perceived advantages, whether they exist or not, instead of setting a context for sport.

By accident rather than design, Armagh ended up with a goalkeeper rather than a midfielder in goals for 2024.

The effect? Less emphasis on "trick plays" and more emphasis on playing your own position.

So instead of Ethan Rafferty finding space and running between the lines, the likes of Conaty and Grimley did this role instead.

The outcome? Well Armagh won an AI conceding a goal every 5 games or so. Blaine became the third no.1 in a row to win an AI without ever crossing out of his own 45.

The knock on effect? Negligible it seems. The media continue convincing themselves that Niall Morgan is the MVP of the country, whilst GAA management teams up and down the country are still convincing themselves they need to create Niall Morgan clones.

This is one of the most interesting posts on this topic. People watch Morgan etc and only see what he brings to the game. He may kick 1 or 2 points but 20 attacks may be slowed down to a walk also. His role changes the dynamic of the team.

Then it's up to opposing management teams to find a solution to that. Was more possible to do that when 15 players were allowed to go where they like. Anyway I don't see the problem. If Tyrone are leading and Morgan is slowing up attacks then it should be up to the opposition to press up (again easier to do when you are able to use all 15 men and can do it further up the pitch instead of being forced to do it within one half), if Tyrone are losing and Morgan is slowing the game up then why would the opposition care?

[thewobbler]

My point really isn't about what the opposition should do to negate /punish Niall Morgan.

The question managers should be asking themselves should be concerned on whether there's actually any benefit at all in having a keeper roam the field.

Using the AI as a benchmark, it would seem the answer is firmly no. Even leaving aside the fact that champions tend to have "proper" keepers. Tyrone's performance levels in championship football have declined over the past few years, correlating with the cult of Morgan growing. Prior to 2022 he might have taken the occasional walk, and came up to hit frees. But he was very much a keeper.

I'll move over to my own county (Down) and look at its club championship. Almost every team in our SFC experiments with or employs a wandering keeper. Except one. Kilcoo.

I know I'm still at small sample stage. But somewhere along the line people really have to ask themselves why our goalkeepers are making 100m runs, while our half forwards are reduced to making short darting runs, or decoy runs, to recycle the ball for goalkeepers.

[tbrick18]

Personally, I think there's no 1-size-fits-all set of rules. Every team will have its strengths and weaknesses and they they will try to use the rules to get the most out of the players they have.
Using Morgan as a reason to change rules, or Jim McGuinness for that matter just means that those teams have found a way to get the best from their team within the rules.

That will not change no matter what the rules are.

What might change is the teams that have strengths to exploit the rules to the detriment of others - so maybe Mayo, or Cork or Meath or someone else will find these rules suit the profile of their players to a tee and take full advantage.

In my view, complicating the rules just makes it more likely that some teams will come up with tactics to change the face of the game again.
The rules committee have tried to predict what this might look like - which is just a gamble in my view.

I've only seen one full game over the weekend and a few snippets from other matches, but looking at the scores across the divisions seems to say that in Div 1 there's not a massive advantage to anyone and scoring looks similar to previous years. In the lower divisions there some huge scores, which tends to suggest one sided games or free-for alls.
Has the overall product improved?

We will just have to wait and see how it pans out when it settles and teams get used to these new rules, and maybe it'll be a revelation. But for now, I really don't see a major advantage.

[Saffron_sam20]

Personally, I think there's no 1-size-fits-all set of rules. Every team will have its strengths and weaknesses and they they will try to use the rules to get the most out of the players they have.
Using Morgan as a reason to change rules, or Jim McGuinness for that matter just means that those teams have found a way to get the best from their team within the rules.

That will not change no matter what the rules are.

What might change is the teams that have strengths to exploit the rules to the detriment of others - so maybe Mayo, or Cork or Meath or someone else will find these rules suit the profile of their players to a tee and take full advantage.

In my view, complicating the rules just makes it more likely that some teams will come up with tactics to change the face of the game again.
The rules committee have tried to predict what this might look like - which is just a gamble in my view.

I've only seen one full game over the weekend and a few snippets from other matches, but looking at the scores across the divisions seems to say that in Div 1 there's not a massive advantage to anyone and scoring looks similar to previous years. In the lower divisions there some huge scores, which tends to suggest one sided games or free-for alls.
Has the overall product improved?

We will just have to wait and see how it pans out when it settles and teams get used to these new rules, and maybe it'll be a revelation. But for now, I really don't see a major advantage.

and this is games where teams are supposedly evenly matched. Wait to the Leinster championship, Dublin vs Wicklow/Longford should be some craic

[thebigfullforward]

My point really isn't about what the opposition should do to negate /punish Niall Morgan.

The question managers should be asking themselves should be concerned on whether there's actually any benefit at all in having a keeper roam the field.

Using the AI as a benchmark, it would seem the answer is firmly no. Even leaving aside the fact that champions tend to have "proper" keepers. Tyrone's performance levels in championship football have declined over the past few years, correlating with the cult of Morgan growing. Prior to 2022 he might have taken the occasional walk, and came up to hit frees. But he was very much a keeper.

I'll move over to my own county (Down) and look at its club championship. Almost every team in our SFC experiments with or employs a wandering keeper. Except one. Kilcoo.

I know I'm still at small sample stage. But somewhere along the line people really have to ask themselves why our goalkeepers are making 100m runs, while our half forwards are reduced to making short darting runs, or decoy runs, to recycle the ball for goalkeepers.

I'd say that has more to do with our defence being non-existent for large portions of the game and relying on McCurry or Canavan to produce something special. I remember a game last year where Morgan caught a ball and ran out to the 20 and not a single player around him had their head up looking for the ball so he eventually got to the 45 and kicked it to McCurry. There was another play where the defence had about 5 or 6 handpasses in a row despite the fact that we could've been up the field. Ball got to Morgan and he took us from the 20 up to midfield with a kickpass into Mattie Donnelly I think it was. Putting any sort of blame on Morgan is laughable. He provides more attacking threat than some of our outfield players whilst being an above averge keeper

[thewobbler]

Is it laughable though?

Look, Morgan is quality and he's a leader.

But please look at this as objectively as you can. Tyrone have spent the past 3 seasons elevating their keeper to the point that he's now their most important outfield player.

You got to the point last season whereby the 6-8 genuinely outstanding outfield players you have, are playing second fiddle to a tactic that doesn't work.

Be objective.

[JoG2]

Is it laughable though?

Look, Morgan is quality and he's a leader.

But please look at this as objectively as you can. Tyrone have spent the past 3 seasons elevating their keeper to the point that he's most important outfield player.

You got to the point last season whereby the 6-8 genuinely outstanding outfield players you have, are playing second fiddle to a tactic that doesn't work.

Be objective.

So Tyrone's resent dip in form is down (in part or full) to the rise of the Morgan cult? Have you watched Tyrone the last couple of years, while so many haven't been putting in, Morgan has.

Tbrick, yes, 1 size doesn't fit all, couldn't agree more. It's finding that right balance

[thewobbler]

Is it laughable though?

Look, Morgan is quality and he's a leader.

But please look at this as objectively as you can. Tyrone have spent the past 3 seasons elevating their keeper to the point that he's most important outfield player.

You got to the point last season whereby the 6-8 genuinely outstanding outfield players you have, are playing second fiddle to a tactic that doesn't work.

Be objective.

So Tyrone's resent dip in form is down (in part or full) to the rise of the Morgan cult? Have you watched Tyrone the last couple of years, while so many haven't been putting in, Morgan has.

Tbrick, yes, 1 size doesn't fit all, couldn't agree more. It's finding that right balance

Correlation doesn't always equal causation.

But you might wish to ponder why it is that "so many haven't been putting it in", whilst one player has.

[JoG2]

Is it laughable though?

Look, Morgan is quality and he's a leader.

But please look at this as objectively as you can. Tyrone have spent the past 3 seasons elevating their keeper to the point that he's most important outfield player.

You got to the point last season whereby the 6-8 genuinely outstanding outfield players you have, are playing second fiddle to a tactic that doesn't work.

Be objective.

So Tyrone's resent dip in form is down (in part or full) to the rise of the Morgan cult? Have you watched Tyrone the last couple of years, while so many haven't been putting in, Morgan has.

Tbrick, yes, 1 size doesn't fit all, couldn't agree more. It's finding that right balance

Correlation doesn't always equal causation.

But you might wish to ponder why it is that "so many haven't been putting it in", whilst one player has.

Post Sam slump, S&C, management, a myriad of reasons... but Morgan being one of the best players on the island certainly  isn't one of them. When Morgan is out the field he is an extra outfield player, not a keeper. With the extra space available most counties in the next few years will have a county level outfield player in goals imo

[DuffleKing]

Paddy Tally is on the ball when he says that the attacking goalkeeper is killing the game by giving the attacking team a 12 v 11 advantage. Goalkeepers should be confined to their own small parallelogram.

In my opinion the 40m arc and 2-pointers are no addition to the game. The pattern of attacking play now revolves mainly around this arc and completely changes the nature of the game that we knew before the possession game took over.

Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness may have brought success to their counties with their tactics but their legacy is a bastardised game.

Maybe if teams pushed up and didn't retreat into the 40m zone then the keeper doesn't become such a threat.

This is what the FRC want teams to do but there is no evidence - yet - that it is effective.
Committing to pressing teams in their half has a theoretically positive element to it but is covered with risk

[thewobbler]

Is it laughable though?

Look, Morgan is quality and he's a leader.

But please look at this as objectively as you can. Tyrone have spent the past 3 seasons elevating their keeper to the point that he's most important outfield player.

You got to the point last season whereby the 6-8 genuinely outstanding outfield players you have, are playing second fiddle to a tactic that doesn't work.

Be objective.

So Tyrone's resent dip in form is down (in part or full) to the rise of the Morgan cult? Have you watched Tyrone the last couple of years, while so many haven't been putting in, Morgan has.

Tbrick, yes, 1 size doesn't fit all, couldn't agree more. It's finding that right balance

Correlation doesn't always equal causation.

But you might wish to ponder why it is that "so many haven't been putting it in", whilst one player has.

Post Sam slump, S&C, management, a myriad of reasons... but Morgan being one of the best players on the island certainly  isn't one of them. When Morgan is out the field he is an extra outfield player, not a keeper. With the extra space available most counties in the next few years will have a county level outfield player in goals imo

And therein lies the conundrum.

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

But the sight of a man in a different coloured jersey, doing the exact same things that outfield players have always done, does seem to overstimulate the brain into thinking that this a solution rather than a problem.

[clonian]

Is it laughable though?

Look, Morgan is quality and he's a leader.

But please look at this as objectively as you can. Tyrone have spent the past 3 seasons elevating their keeper to the point that he's most important outfield player.

You got to the point last season whereby the 6-8 genuinely outstanding outfield players you have, are playing second fiddle to a tactic that doesn't work.

Be objective.

So Tyrone's resent dip in form is down (in part or full) to the rise of the Morgan cult? Have you watched Tyrone the last couple of years, while so many haven't been putting in, Morgan has.

Tbrick, yes, 1 size doesn't fit all, couldn't agree more. It's finding that right balance

Correlation doesn't always equal causation.

But you might wish to ponder why it is that "so many haven't been putting it in", whilst one player has.

Post Sam slump, S&C, management, a myriad of reasons... but Morgan being one of the best players on the island certainly  isn't one of them. When Morgan is out the field he is an extra outfield player, not a keeper. With the extra space available most counties in the next few years will have a county level outfield player in goals imo

And therein lies the conundrum.

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

But the sight of a man in a different coloured jersey, doing the exact same things that outfield players have always done, does seem to overstimulate the brain into thinking that this a solution rather than a problem.

There's 2 points to it I see:

1 - Nobody is saying Niall Morgan isn't helping Tyrone out but I'd say there's more issues with the other players in the Tyrone team not doing the things they're relying on Morgan for now. It looks sometimes when you're watching these games (not just Tyrone) you'd think that the keepers are the only players allowed to kick the ball forward.
2 - Every time a coach takes an outfield player to play the 'Morgan' role they completely forget that Niall is one of the best shot stoppers in the game. Played in goals at the top level in the northern soccer league ffs.

Will Niall Morgan have less of a role outfield as Tyrone improve?

[trueblue1234]

As said, Morgan is equally at home in the small box as on the halfway line. He is a top keeper in the traditional sense so I suppose he's not the best example as he can do both roles well.
Plus while some of his play can be slow he's also one of the best passers on the Tyrone team. Especially longer range. He has set up plenty of break out attacks with a well delivered long ball.
Morgan has been going upfield regularly for a number of years. He's been caught out a number of times, but his impact on the team has been significant. If other outfield players aren't having a similar impact going forward then that is on them to improve. I don't foresee Morgan's role being restricted regardless of how these rules changes go. He's just too influential to play as a standard, on his line keeper. 

[gallsman]

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

What ones are these now? Your argument that the last 3 AI winning teams had more traditional keepers?

[thebigfullforward]

Is it laughable though?

Look, Morgan is quality and he's a leader.

But please look at this as objectively as you can. Tyrone have spent the past 3 seasons elevating their keeper to the point that he's most important outfield player.

You got to the point last season whereby the 6-8 genuinely outstanding outfield players you have, are playing second fiddle to a tactic that doesn't work.

Be objective.

So Tyrone's resent dip in form is down (in part or full) to the rise of the Morgan cult? Have you watched Tyrone the last couple of years, while so many haven't been putting in, Morgan has.

Tbrick, yes, 1 size doesn't fit all, couldn't agree more. It's finding that right balance

Correlation doesn't always equal causation.

But you might wish to ponder why it is that "so many haven't been putting it in", whilst one player has.

Post Sam slump, S&C, management, a myriad of reasons... but Morgan being one of the best players on the island certainly  isn't one of them. When Morgan is out the field he is an extra outfield player, not a keeper. With the extra space available most counties in the next few years will have a county level outfield player in goals imo

And therein lies the conundrum.

Hard cold facts would suggest that teams with a traditional keeper outperform those with a roaming keeper.

But the sight of a man in a different coloured jersey, doing the exact same things that outfield players have always done, does seem to overstimulate the brain into thinking that this a solution rather than a problem.

Don't know if you read my post but I'll say it again, those outfield players weren't doing what Morgan is doing. Hopefully that will change with MOR but over the last 3 years half them looked to have no interest in getting the ball forward. Canavans goal against Monaghan for example, Morgan said some of the players were telling him to let it go out for a goalkick after Hughes' shot. He didn't let it go out, he kicked it about 45m to Canavan who finsihed it off. That about sums it up. The others had no interest in getting the ball forward quickly. There's been plenty of other times where the defence would be passing about and it would take Morgan to do something with it like he did against Derry and has done plenty of other times. Again, hopefully this changes with Malachy and we aren't looking for Morgan as much to set up attacks but with these new rules in that force 3 defenders back it would be stupid to not take advantage of a 12v11 opportunity when Morgan is the extra man