A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[armaghniac]

Can we agree that a border poll held in the next 5 years would be very likely to be defeated?

I mean if I were a Unionist I would want a border poll now to bury the issue for a few decades, much like what has happened in Scotland. I really think if SF, as the largest party in the Assembly and with a Labour SOS, really forced the issue they would get a border poll.

It looks win/win for the Labour Party too. Lose the border poll and you cut loose one of your biggest budget liabilities without much political blowback. Win the border poll and they shore up their little Englander vote whilst simultaneously appeasing nationalists (by arranging a poll) and Unionists (by winning it).

A border poll will only succeed if a lot of work has been done to establish what exactly you are voting with details and not just generalities. However, you cannot bury it for generations, the issue will not go away.
And we in Ireland should not allow the British clear off without a proper settlement of the finances in terms of civil service pensions and the like.

Go back and read through his comments. A total partitionist and in response to Martin's comments selects IRA killings in the '26 counties' (ignoring Dublin bombings and many many other Loyalist/British State atrocities) to say Martin does have a point.

Martin was out of order with these comments, but that is a small thing in the overall situation.

[Truthsayer]

Cherry picking and whataboutery FFS. Being disgusted at the likes of the killing of Jerry McCabe makes you a west brit because, and I admit the logic is starting to get lost on me here, he didn't also bring up Dublin/Monaghan? You do understand that it's SF who are a political force in the south and not the UPRG or LCC or whoever, yes?!

I don't care bout SF one way or other... point is Martin warned against two sides analysis of the Troubles totally ignoring actions carried out by loyalists/British State. How can that analysis be defended? Of course there were terrible actions carried out by both sides... was not IRA waging war on its own people as Martin's comments suggested that Rossfan tried to defend. It's not that hard follow? 

[Truthsayer]

Can we agree that a border poll held in the next 5 years would be very likely to be defeated?

I mean if I were a Unionist I would want a border poll now to bury the issue for a few decades, much like what has happened in Scotland. I really think if SF, as the largest party in the Assembly and with a Labour SOS, really forced the issue they would get a border poll.

It looks win/win for the Labour Party too. Lose the border poll and you cut loose one of your biggest budget liabilities without much political blowback. Win the border poll and they shore up their little Englander vote whilst simultaneously appeasing nationalists (by arranging a poll) and Unionists (by winning it).

A border poll will only succeed if a lot of work has been done to establish what exactly you are voting with details and not just generalities. However, you cannot bury it for generations, the issue will not go away.
And we in Ireland should not allow the British clear off without a proper settlement of the finances in terms of civil service pensions and the like.

Go back and read through his comments. A total partitionist and in response to Martin's comments selects IRA killings in the '26 counties' (ignoring Dublin bombings and many many other Loyalist/British State atrocities) to say Martin does have a point.

Martin was out of order with these comments, but that is a small thing in the overall situation.

Not that small... deeply offensive to victims and a sick analysis from an Irish political leader.

[gallsman]

Cherry picking and whataboutery FFS. Being disgusted at the likes of the killing of Jerry McCabe makes you a west brit because, and I admit the logic is starting to get lost on me here, he didn't also bring up Dublin/Monaghan? You do understand that it's SF who are a political force in the south and not the UPRG or LCC or whoever, yes?!

I don't care bout SF one way or other... point is Martin warned against two sides analysis of the Troubles totally ignoring actions carried out by loyalists/British State. How can that analysis be defended? Of course there were terrible actions carried out by both sides... was not IRA waging war on its own people as Martin's comments suggested that Rossfan tried to defend. It's not that hard follow?

He called Martin's comment "ridiculous" but mentioned him having a point about provo activity in the south. Where's the controversy here?

[Truthsayer]

Cherry picking and whataboutery FFS. Being disgusted at the likes of the killing of Jerry McCabe makes you a west brit because, and I admit the logic is starting to get lost on me here, he didn't also bring up Dublin/Monaghan? You do understand that it's SF who are a political force in the south and not the UPRG or LCC or whoever, yes?!

I don't care bout SF one way or other... point is Martin warned against two sides analysis of the Troubles totally ignoring actions carried out by loyalists/British State. How can that analysis be defended? Of course there were terrible actions carried out by both sides... was not IRA waging war on its own people as Martin's comments suggested that Rossfan tried to defend. It's not that hard follow?

He called Martin's comment "ridiculous" but mentioned him having a point about provo activity in the south. Where's the controversy here?

The comments were a bit more than ridiculous. Martin had no point whatsoever... it was not a one-sided war.
 Anyway I've said that often enough here. If you don't see how insulting and gross  Martin's comments were to many victims... there's no equivication.

[Tubberman]

This morning's postings are very interesting indeed.........

Some children can be harder to love than others.

Anyway, would you be happy to retract your suggestion that Tubberman was repsonsible for "one of the most sensible posts" when his post was in fact based around two absolutely massive false claims?

To clarify, I said (copy and paste):
"even among the 'nationalist' community, there seems to be a large element who aren't in favour of unity."

In response to one of your many posts, I pasted an Irish Times article on one of polls showing 43% of catholics either against unity or undecided.

Where is the "absolutely massive false" claim?

[gallsman]

Where did I say anything about my opinion on Martin's comments?

My point is that morons from the north are quick to throw out insults like west brit, free stater, blueshirt etc without a) understanding what they actually mean and b) considering whether they're actually applicable, then immediately jump to outrage when someone from the south says "eh, maybe you're not quite my type".

"He's a west brit because because because, em, his condemnation of Martin's remarks didn't satisfy me". Grow the f**k up.

[Pub Bore]

Well, that all took off while I was at a Christmas do!

[Truthsayer]

Where did I say anything about my opinion on Martin's comments?

My point is that morons from the north are quick to throw out insults like west brit, free stater, blueshirt etc without a) understanding what they actually mean and b) considering whether they're actually applicable, then immediately jump to outrage when someone from the south says "eh, maybe you're not quite my type".

"He's a west brit because because because, em, his condemnation of Martin's remarks didn't satisfy me". Grow the f**k up.

Because he attempted to justify Martin's comments...
Are you stamping your feet?! 

[03,05,08]

The Poor people in the 26 getting called bad names when they have a partitionist mindset, I'm not going to sleep tonight with the guilt of all they have had to endure. 

[Snapchap]

This morning's postings are very interesting indeed.........

Some children can be harder to love than others.

Anyway, would you be happy to retract your suggestion that Tubberman was repsonsible for "one of the most sensible posts" when his post was in fact based around two absolutely massive false claims?

To clarify, I said (copy and paste):
"even among the 'nationalist' community, there seems to be a large element who aren't in favour of unity."

In response to one of your many posts, I pasted an Irish Times article on one of polls showing 43% of catholics either against unity or undecided.

Where is the "absolutely massive false" claim?

The bit where you said "even among the 'nationalist' community, there seems to be a large element who aren't in favour of unity."

You posted a link to a two year old study. Lucid Talk (by some way the most accurate polling company in the north), this year found that 95% of nationalists want a border poll within 20 years.

[Substandard]

In The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy,  the Golgafrinchians hadn't discovered the wheel after 3 years and over 500 meetings because they couldn't decide on the colour.
Varadkar spoke about a United Ireland after leaving office,  which surprised me a bit,  and then pointed to limitations of office which he said prevented him from talking more about it.
I think there has been some moves behind the scenes, and signs of progress, but I think there would need to be a much more open and proactive stance from Dáil Éireann.  I don't see much chance while Martin will be at the helm.

[weareros]

Of course there's a lot of contradictions in throwing about terms like blueshirts and west Brits. The blueshirts were founded by right wing fascist Eoin O'Duffy. Eoin of course was first a Sinn Fein TD and Chief of Staff of IRA. Michael Collins considered him one of the best soldiers in the  Irish War of Independence and it was him he sent to protect Catholics in Belfast from sectarian Unionist attacks after his notable victories against the Brits. There's been plenty of claims by Mary Lou and Pearse Doherty that current Sinn Fein are 1905 Sinn Fein, the same Sinn Fein that voted 64/57 for partition then. That would make my fellow Rossie Matt Carthy heir to Eoin o'Duffy's seat. Eoin went on to help found Fine Gael before quickly leaving them because they were too "British." His final act was to help set up meetings for the IRA with the Nazis. He was a right wing Catholic nutter but he always wanted to complete some unfinished business against the Brits.

[Rossfan]

The calling of a "Border poll" is in the hands of the Brit Sec of State if it appears to him/her there might be a majority in the North in favour of a UI.

All very vague and subjective, probably deliberately so in the context of 1998.
No guidelines or criteria laid down anywhere.
Different Secs of State will have varying ideas of what might appear to them as a majority in favour.

Possibly only come about as a result of Court proceedings taken by someone from the Nationalist community.

PS - O'Duffys crew were some disaster in Spain by all accounts.
PPS -- when he was Secretary of the Ulster Council seems he'd refuse to adopt a Referee's report if Monaghan lost, he'd order a replay

[Pub Bore]

The calling of a "Border poll" is in the hands of the Brit Sec of State if it appears to him/her there might be a majority in the North in favour of a UI.

All very vague and subjective, probably deliberately so in the context of 1998.
No guidelines or criteria laid down anywhere.
Different Secs of State will have varying ideas of what might appear to them as a majority in favour.

Possibly only come about as a result of Court proceedings taken by someone from the Nationalist community.

Yes, as I've said before this was the part of the GFA where SF/SDLP were asleep, though maybe the vagueness of this was the price for prisoner release and SF realising they would have to play the long game, who knows?  But trying to force the SoS into calling a border poll is like trying to eat soup with a fork.  There are no solid criteria.  Labour (the British version) have already said a poll won't be called during their tenure, so there's no chance before 2030.