Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[tiempo]

6 mins, that depend on stadium size? U wouldn't get out of the Hill in 6 mins foreby Croke Park.

No, all stadiums and venues must evacuate within 6 mins in an emergency. Doesn't matter if the ground hold 5000 or 100,000. I actually just looked it up and i was wrong (apologies) the actual figure is less than 8 mins. The "Red Guide" states you must evacuate in an emergency in less than 8 mins. I used to know all these stats but having not done it in over a decade it's all a bit rusty, there is great software that shows you how crowds react in an emergency and when they get to a pinch point that restricts the flow you can see it all backing up.

Anyone ever seen a successful 8min evacuation of a 100,000 capacity venue in a real emergency? Sounds implausible

[illdecide]

The biggest issue with the design was the stadium could not be evacuated in 6 mins safely as there was insufficient room for the patrons. This time is in the red guide for stadia safety and applies to all stadiums, this is modelled and I've seen how it backs up and crushing develops. The M1 to the rear stopped the stadia having free flowing egress.

There is basically a street and waste ground before the motorway at the rear of Casement.

Looking at images of Fulham football pitch it's side is on to the river a lot closer than Casements to motorway

Yeah i've no doubt on that. Fulham only holds 25,000 from all 4 sides so i'm assuming that's the safe allowance with council and specification. In saying all that a lot of existing older grounds probably don't meet the h&s requirements and get their attendances reduced to a level that's does meet requirements. Obviously all new builds have to have everything in place.

[illdecide]

6 mins, that depend on stadium size? U wouldn't get out of the Hill in 6 mins foreby Croke Park.

No, all stadiums and venues must evacuate within 6 mins in an emergency. Doesn't matter if the ground hold 5000 or 100,000. I actually just looked it up and i was wrong (apologies) the actual figure is less than 8 mins. The "Red Guide" states you must evacuate in an emergency in less than 8 mins. I used to know all these stats but having not done it in over a decade it's all a bit rusty, there is great software that shows you how crowds react in an emergency and when they get to a pinch point that restricts the flow you can see it all backing up.

Anyone ever seen a successful 8min evacuation of a 100,000 capacity venue in a real emergency? Sounds implausible

No, hope we never have too either. If you look at how stands are constructed they have rows of about 20 or 25 seats before you get to another exit.

[Evil Genius]

Yes, the GAA didn't cover themselves on glory over Casement but it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI), Planning Dept, local objections etc. There were so many stumbling blocks from day 1 and I accept the GAA should have done their homework better but it wasn't just all them.

You refer to "obstacles in the way" such as H&S, almost as if these are unique to Casement/GAA.

As you know, all developments have to comply with safety regulations, incl eg Windsor and Ravenhill. Meaning it can only be down to the GAA when they submit a scheme which doesn't comply (in fact didn't even come close).
Which in that case had three further, rather sinister aspects:
1. The outrageous, politically-inspired pressure which was put on Paul Scott, a civil servant who was only doing his job, and a hugely important job at that;
2. (I think I'm right in saying that) Scott's objections were finally overriden for political reasons by an SDLP(?) Minister;
3. Most importantly, amidst frequent claims that Unionists, Soccer and others somehow "had it in for" the GAA community, this was ultimately a case of the GAA itself being indifferent to the safety of their own fans! 

You think that the Antrim GAA are not too bothered about having no stadium?. Yeah, dead on EG.

Fair enough, I'll bow to your superior knowledge. (I allowed myself to be misled by the absence of any obvious, public protests by Antrim fans over the long delay in getting the new stadium built.)

One big factor you missed out on was IFA and NI Soccer fans would not share a stadium with the GAA.
 

Which stadium are you talking about?

If it's the Maze, the IRFU never committed to play any games there, merely noting instead that it would be available to them if necessary. On which point, Ravenhill was then entirely adequate for their needs, with Lansdowne being their clear and obvious preference for the odd big game when they needed greater capacity.

As for the GAA, they were entirely agnostic to the proposal, remembering that Casement/Clones/Croke were considered adequate for their needs at the time, too. Of course if HMG wanted to pay for a big new stadium, then fine, the GAA too would use it if it suited. On which latter point they demanded, successfully, that if it were to be built, it should have a bigger capacity than originally envisaged, of 44k, or even 48k(?). This would have been much bigger than Soccer or Rugby would ever have wanted, and I suspect was required by the GAA to fill a capacity gap between Clones/Casement and Croke.

Meanwhile, the one organisation which was unequivocally in favour of the Maze was the IFA, with their then CEO, Howard Wells, going on the record to express the IFA's clear support from the very start:
(From 2006) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ifa-gives-backing-to-maze-stadium-proposal-1.768979

(And yes, I'm well aware that this support was Hobson's Choice, with Windsor then on life support in hospital, with a UEFA 'Do Not Resusitate' sign at the foot of the bed)

But if you mean Casement, it was never envisaged by anyone, IFA or supporters, that Soccer would be "sharing" Casement, until the Euro's came into the equation as recently as last October.

And even there, the IFA publicly backed Casement being used to host one of the Groups. Granted, NI fans opposed this, on the basis that if HMG were suddenly to conjure up £100m(?) extra to support Soccer games in a Soccer tournament, then in principle, that extra funding should be used for a Soccer stadium, with the legacy for Soccer which that would provide. (I emphasise "Soccer", since that principle applies were it eg Ravenhill we were talking about, rather than Casement).

But still, I guess it's always easier for Ulster GAA to blame someone else, in order to cover up their own incompetence and vanity.

You say you're not objecting to the GAA having a funded stadium yet you go on and say not the size of the proposed one just a smaller one will do, why shouldn't the Country's largest played sport have the largest stadium.

So long as they meet the same Planning and H&S constraints as every other such project, the GAA may have whatever stadium, of whatever size, they like.
The point here is, who is going to fund it? When this was first proposed, nearly 20 years ago, the GAA itself and all the political parties were entirely happy with their original funding. Which only became a problem when the GAA themselves screwed up their plans for the money over the course of 15 years.

We have been discriminated against for decades, where I live we have 6 GAA clubs within a 3 mile radius and not one Council GAA pitch. I actually done a few CAD Dwgs for a proposed Council GAA pitch and it was ignored and turned from a soccer pitch to a cricket pitch/pavilion.

"Discriminated against" implies that your Sport has been singled out for lesser treatment than others. I would remind you that before the Maze windfall* came into play, when it came to government money, England/Wembley, Scotland/Hampden and Wales/Millennium all received significant funding which was not available to NI/Windsor.

While if you look at Irish League stadia, none of those have ever received anything like the financial support which their GB equivalents received from Lottery funding post-Hillsborough.

Meaning that if the GAA has, indeed, been underfunded by Government, they are hardly alone amongst Sport in NI in that regard.

P.S. Were Stormont to stump up, say, £200m for Casement, that would blow their entire budget for ALL other sports in NI for the next 25 years.

* - Itself shared equally, remember

The money offered is from DCAL but (IMO) you're wrong about the concerts, any Entertainment building or stadium can host an event as long as they get approval from local council and emergency services. They will also liaise with the local residents but it's not a feature you include at planning, its a sports stadium.

Once again, the Maze money was ringfenced for Sport, specifically to provide "Regional" stadia for the three main codes.
The ability to host other, non-sporting events was only ever a bonus. Except that the GAA insisted it needed an all-singing, all-dancing large stadium, even though it only ever envisaged one Sporting event to 32k capacity per annum, for which an alternative was available (Clones).
Why should they be permitted to use Sports funding to move into the wider Events business, esp when such Government funding would give them an unfair (and possibly unlawful) Competitive Advantage over other venues, whether Council owned or private?
I mean, neither Ravenhill nor Windsor was designed with that in mind.

Schools, Hospitals and infrastructure are different departments and will have their own budgets, if they're short they need to go back and get more. I'll happily (if it was my decision) give all the funding up for Casement for a better Health Service and Roads, the real important stuff providing you stop funding for all projects and I mean everything except Health, Hospitals, Infrastructure and Schools but we all know that can't happen.

And if they go back for more and are told: "Sorry, there is no more, the sports boys over in DCAL have already taken it"?

I went on for ages that the fee was closer to £300m for Casement but all I could hear was it's £400m and that was pure speculation from the Unionists & British Government to renege on their promise that the stadium would be built.

Hang on, who did you hear the £400m from? (Genuine question)

And even if s.o. was speculating thus, so what? We know we're talking £300m, later downgraded to a mere £270m, which seems outrageous to me both because the original £62m grant was accepted by all as fair, but also because there can be no justification for spending anything like that for one Ulster Senior Final a year!

Moreover, the British Government, never mind "Unionists" never "promise[d] that the stadium would be built" [sic].

All the Government promised was that £62m would be provided for Ulster GAA to fulfil its promise to its community to build a stadium fit to replace Casement.

[Evil Genius]

Looking at images of Fulham football pitch it's side is on to the river a lot closer than Casements to motorway

Yeah i've no doubt on that. Fulham only holds 25,000 from all 4 sides so i'm assuming that's the safe allowance with council and specification. In saying all that a lot of existing older grounds probably don't meet the h&s requirements and get their attendances reduced to a level that's does meet requirements. Obviously all new builds have to have everything in place.

Since they built the new Riverside Stand, there arguably is now better evacuation from it than from that which existed for the previous stand it replaces:
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/sealed-off-section-of-thames-path-in-fulham-has-opened-to-the-public-75057/

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

Re your bold, what exactly was it stopped the GAA from building a new Casement at the same time as rugby and soccer?

(Clue: Rank incompetence and vanity on the part of the GAA?)

Yes, the GAA didn't cover themselves on glory over Casement but it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI), Planning Dept, local objections etc. There were so many stumbling blocks from day 1 and I accept the GAA should have done their homework better but it wasn't just all them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32530978

I know Paul and he was there for my training for the Safety Officer role at Stadiums, he does things by the book and looks like a move was on to oust him out so that the plans could go ahead...it'll be interesting what follows

Do you want to talk us through your thoughts on this, with the passing of time?
I mean, calling him "an obstacle" in 2024 is fairly at odds with your view at the time.

[Tony Baloney]

I dont know the qualifications of the individuals involved but I'd be interested in the lines on the cv of Caral niChuilin, Ryan Feeney and Stephen McGeehan which elevated them to overseeing one of the biggest capital projects the North has ever seen.

[RadioGAAGAA]

I dont know the qualifications of the individuals involved but I'd be interested in the lines on the cv of Caral niChuilin, Ryan Feeney and Stephen McGeehan which elevated them to overseeing one of the biggest capital projects the North has ever seen.

They had doctorates in overconfidence and are fully fluent in talking bullsh!t.


Unfortunately, that all too often seems to be a problem across many companies and public bodies - the knowledgeable and competent folks are often a bit quieter and more introverted.


Also, to be honest, in the grand scheme of engineering projects, Casement isn't that complex - they've just made a complete and utter balls of it.
There is nothing fancy with foundations. Or exotic with site access. Or even in the proposed structures.

The new road to Derry would have been, or the A5 will be, much tougher to manage as every time you cut earth, you run the risk of coming across something completely unexpected that totally derails all your scheduling.

Any kind of hospital, or significant hospital buildings, will be far more complex with all the systems and redundancies within.

[illdecide]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

Re your bold, what exactly was it stopped the GAA from building a new Casement at the same time as rugby and soccer?

(Clue: Rank incompetence and vanity on the part of the GAA?)

Yes, the GAA didn't cover themselves on glory over Casement but it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI), Planning Dept, local objections etc. There were so many stumbling blocks from day 1 and I accept the GAA should have done their homework better but it wasn't just all them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32530978

I know Paul and he was there for my training for the Safety Officer role at Stadiums, he does things by the book and looks like a move was on to oust him out so that the plans could go ahead...it'll be interesting what follows

Do you want to talk us through your thoughts on this, with the passing of time?
I mean, calling him "an obstacle" in 2024 is fairly at odds with your view at the time.

What is it you want to talk about...? I said he was an obstacle in the way in his role with sport NI, he was one obstacle the GAA couldn't get past along with many others. What is your issue here? I haven't attacked the man personally, I just said he was one of the GAA's obstacles. So you and EG can now spend hours/days looking thru previous posts trying to find something that you think I said personally about Paul Scott...Good luck with that, that's why i'm not responding to EG as i don't have the energy and time to start a tit for tat replies going on for days and weeks.

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

.....it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI)....

Can you explain why you have listed H&S and/or Paul Scott as "obstacles" that show that it wasn't all GAA's fault?

[Wildweasel74]

Newsletter as always with a neutral piece today lol

[illdecide]

.....it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI)....

Can you explain why you have listed H&S and/or Paul Scott as "obstacles" that show that it wasn't all GAA's fault?

An obstacle is a thing that blocks one's way or prevents or hinders progress. I thought that was pretty clear, so in case you're not sure Sport NI (Paul Scott) were an obstacle in the GAA's way for moving forward. Sin e

[Tony Baloney]

.....it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI)....

Can you explain why you have listed H&S and/or Paul Scott as "obstacles" that show that it wasn't all GAA's fault?

An obstacle is a thing that blocks one's way or prevents or hinders progress. I thought that was pretty clear, so in case you're not sure Sport NI (Paul Scott) were an obstacle in the GAA's way for moving forward. Sin e

By doing his job? Maybe you are inferring he had other motives to hinder or prevent progress outside the scope of his H&S role?

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

.....it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI)....

Can you explain why you have listed H&S and/or Paul Scott as "obstacles" that show that it wasn't all GAA's fault?

An obstacle is a thing that blocks one's way or prevents or hinders progress. I thought that was pretty clear, so in case you're not sure Sport NI (Paul Scott) were an obstacle in the GAA's way for moving forward. Sin e

And how have you tied that in with it not being "all GAA's fault"?

[LC]

I dont know the qualifications of the individuals involved but I'd be interested in the lines on the cv of Caral niChuilin, Ryan Feeney and Stephen McGeehan which elevated them to overseeing one of the biggest capital projects the North has ever seen.

They had doctorates in overconfidence and are fully fluent in talking bullsh!t.


Unfortunately, that all too often seems to be a problem across many companies and public bodies - the knowledgeable and competent folks are often a bit quieter and more introverted.


Also, to be honest, in the grand scheme of engineering projects, Casement isn't that complex - they've just made a complete and utter balls of it.
There is nothing fancy with foundations. Or exotic with site access. Or even in the proposed structures.

The new road to Derry would have been, or the A5 will be, much tougher to manage as every time you cut earth, you run the risk of coming across something completely unexpected that totally derails all your scheduling.

Any kind of hospital, or significant hospital buildings, will be far more complex with all the systems and redundancies within.

Agree 100% and once (if) it gets started it will be a relatively straigthforward.

What they really f@#ked up has been the pre-construction stage.

At the end of the day if you were living in a house and you were looking to get planning for and hopefully build a replacement you wouldn't move out until you had your planning through and the money secured.

At the end of the day whoever was or were the geniuses that decided to close it down are the biggest clowns in this whole mess and trust me there are lot of clowns involved in the Casement project.