Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[twohands!!!]

Cork GAA announced their financial results last night.

Their debt stands at €31.1 million.
They paid around €1.6 million in interest this year and only reduced the total debt by €141k.
Basically running furiously yet pretty much standing still in terms of reducing the debt.

In terms of the stadium itself it had an operating loss of €1.9 million this year.
This means since it re-opened in 2017 it has lost money as a business every year apart from one (and that one year that the stadium made profits was off the back of 5 concerts that year - the only reason they were allowed have 5 concerts that year was because of COVID - chances are if not for the 5 concerts taking place in the one year, every year since opening would have been recorded as making a loss)

The key point is that anyone who thinks when a stadium is finished it will automatically make profit is living in cloud-cuckoo land. All the positive stuff that was said about Pairc Ui Chaoimh before it was opened in terms of generating profits for the Cork County Board/driving Cork GAA on/money rolling in could pretty much be copy and pasted as the PR stuff about Casement. I think there is a big element of the folk in Ulster GAA looking at Croke Park and thinking Casement would be just like that in terms of hosting matches and events when Pairc Ui Chaoimh is a much more accurate comparison. Some of the GAA specific stuff about Casement getting more games in particular could be word-for-word the same stuff the Cork Board were saying about getting extra matches in PuC.

My big worry is that Ulster GAA didn't even seem to consider reducing the capacity of the stadium after London pulled the Euro funding despite the cost and the lack of money available and the actual fact of what funds are actually committed to the project - overall I still have massive worries that the way things are going, that Casement will be a repeat of Pairc Ui Chaoimh and effectively bankrupt the Ulster Council which will do massive damage to clubs and the gaa across Ulster for years to come.

[Wildweasel74]

It was built, thinking they get Munster semi finals and finals on a regular basis,  but the traffic layout, congestion, lack of parking is a nightmare. No bars round the area I think either. Should build it from scratch outside Cork side.

[weareros]

Would Casement end up having same debt as Pairc Ui Chaoimh, which is €30m in debt and won't be paid off till 2048. You'd imagine a good ground could be created from £62m from Stormont, £15m from GAA, £42m from Dublin. There's £119m before any debt is incurred. After that there's running costs.

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

There has been zero suggestion from the GAA that they intend to build a £119m stadium. They seem determined to build a stadium that will cost more than double that.

[twohands!!!]

It was built, thinking they get Munster semi finals and finals on a regular basis,  but the traffic layout, congestion, lack of parking is a nightmare. No bars round the area I think either. Should build it from scratch outside Cork side.

I don't know if the people talking about Pairc Ui Chaoimh were just being dishonest (as in they knew well, they wouldn't be getting more than their fair share of games/that the other counties were all going to suddently give up home games for the joy of dragging supporters down to Cork) or were honestly just completely clueless about how games were/are allocated. The location is terrible; Casement's isn't as bad but also  Casement's current location isn't the best. However there is no chance of building elsewhere now with the land available for free.

Would Casement end up having same debt as Pairc Ui Chaoimh, which is €30m in debt and won't be paid off till 2048. You'd imagine a good ground could be created from £62m from Stormont, £15m from GAA, £42m from Dublin. There's £119m before any debt is incurred. After that there's running costs.

Given the current plans and the current funding available and the stuff London have been saying with regards to funding, in my opinion Ulster GAA would be absolutely blessed to end up with only £30 million in debt.
Unless they change the plans I'll be shocked if they don't end up with at least £50million in debt and if things go badly I could see the debt getting up in the direction of £100 million, which sounds nuts but Ulster GAA are currently planning on building a stadium that they say will cost £270 milllion despite only having £119 million in funding committed. That's a current shortfall of £151million and that's assuming it's built on budget. If a £270 million project only goes 5% over budget that's an additional £13.5 million. If you find anyone who is confident that this project will be finished at less than 5% over budget, can you pass their details on to me because I have a few bridges that I can sell them.

The ongoing running costs bit concerns me massively as well- Turning a profit at Casement every year is going to be no mean feat - with one full house every year and a maximum of three concerts/big events, there just isn't a lot of room for manouver in terms of not making a loss. If you compare how much people are likely to visit Casement in a year compared to any other 30,000 capacity stadium being built anywhere around the world, I would be shocked if Casement gets anywhere close in terms of expected footfall over a year.

[marty34]

I think a modern neat and tidy 25, 000 seater stadium would be fine. Only going to be full a few times a year.

Any bigger games i.e. Ulster Final, take them to Croke Park.

[Evil Genius]

I think a modern neat and tidy 25, 000 seater stadium would be fine. Only going to be full a few times a year.

So you imagine that they could fill 25k seats "a few times a year"?

Here is how the GAA themselves saw it in their Event Management Plan lodged with BCC in 2018:

2-5 matches annually with attendance range 3,000-15,000 (All-Ireland Qualifiers)
2 matches annually with attendances typically around 20,000 (Ulster Championship Semi's)
1 match annually with attendance normally 32,000-34,186 (Ulster Championship Final)
(See page 8: https://minutes.belfastcity.gov.uk/documents/s92471/APPENDIX%202d%20S76%20Annex%203%20Event%20Management%20Plan.pdf )

Any bigger games i.e. Ulster Final, take them to Croke Park.

So you would move the one event they reckon should fill it as well?

That would leave a date free for an extra Garth Brooks concert, I suppose...

[marty34]

I think a modern neat and tidy 25, 000 seater stadium would be fine. Only going to be full a few times a year.

So you imagine that they could fill 25k seats "a few times a year"?

Here is how the GAA themselves saw it in their Event Management Plan lodged with BCC in 2018:

2-5 matches annually with attendance range 3,000-15,000 (All-Ireland Qualifiers)
2 matches annually with attendances typically around 20,000 (Ulster Championship Semi's)
1 match annually with attendance normally 32,000-34,186 (Ulster Championship Final)
(See page 8: https://minutes.belfastcity.gov.uk/documents/s92471/APPENDIX%202d%20S76%20Annex%203%20Event%20Management%20Plan.pdf )

Any bigger games i.e. Ulster Final, take them to Croke Park.
[/quote]So you would move the one event they reckon should fill it as well?

That would leave a date free for an extra Garth Brooks concert, I suppose...

Well, if Ulster Final has huge demand for tickets, say Tyrone V Armgh, then the logical thing would be to move it to Croke Park.

A win win! More people get to seethe game and more £ for the GAA, which ultimately drips down to the clubs.

Other Ulster Finals could be held there, say Monaghan V Antrim etc.

[Evil Genius]

Well, if Ulster Final has huge demand for tickets, say Tyrone V Armgh, then the logical thing would be to move it to Croke Park.

A win win! More people get to seethe game and more £ for the GAA, which ultimately drips down to the clubs.

If you say so. But my point was that even by the GAA's own projections, there is absolutely no demand for a 30k+ stadium, bar one game a season. And you could see even that being taken away for certain games.

Other Ulster Finals could be held there, say Monaghan V Antrim etc.

You might want to choose another example, since I see Antrim have made precisely one Final appearance since 1951, while Monaghan have made 10 in that period.

While 29k spectators in Clones would actually generate more money overall than 32k in Casement, since the former avoids 20% VAT. (Unless you charged 20% more for tickets for Casement, which is hardly an incentive for fans.)

All of which is before you consider 'twohands!!!' earlier post re. Cork (#5325)

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

Well, if Ulster Final has huge demand for tickets, say Tyrone V Armgh, then the logical thing would be to move it to Croke Park.

A win win! More people get to seethe game and more £ for the GAA, which ultimately drips down to the clubs.

If you say so. But my point was that even by the GAA's own projections, there is absolutely no demand for a 30k+ stadium, bar one game a season. And you could see even that being taken away for certain games.

Other Ulster Finals could be held there, say Monaghan V Antrim etc.

You might want to choose another example, since I see Antrim have made precisely one Final appearance since 1951, while Monaghan have made 10 in that period.

While 29k spectators in Clones would actually generate more money overall than 32k in Casement, since the former avoids 20% VAT. (Unless you charged 20% more for tickets for Casement, which is hardly an incentive for fans.)

All of which is before you consider 'twohands!!!' earlier post re. Cork (#5325)

Whoa! Two. We've made two. Christ, it's bad enough without downgrading our stats any further.

[Evil Genius]

I see Antrim have made precisely one Final appearance since 1951

Whoa! Two. We've made two. Christ, it's bad enough without downgrading our stats any further.

Eh?

I make it one since 1951 i.e. two if you include 1951:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Senior_Football_Championship#Ulster_Senior_Football_Championship_records_and_statistics

[Duine Inteacht Eile]

Check out 1970 & 2009.

[Wee Barky]

Checkmate.

[illdecide]

How many stadiums are full to capacity in any sports here?. I don't know about Ravenhill but i assume they get a decent crowd at their games. Windsor is at 15% capacity for club games and for NI games it looks pretty full but only a handful of games per year. GAA stadiums are no different, league games (Armagh) have been up around 9000-10,000 and Championship games is where we see the bigger attendances for obvious reasons. On the logic above we should all just have small arena's to accommodate average crowds. 

[Evil Genius]

How many stadiums are full to capacity in any sports here?. I don't know about Ravenhill but i assume they get a decent crowd at their games. Windsor is at 15% capacity for club games and for NI games it looks pretty full but only a handful of games per year. GAA stadiums are no different, league games (Armagh) have been up around 9000-10,000 and Championship games is where we see the bigger attendances for obvious reasons. On the logic above we should all just have small arena's to accommodate average crowds. 

Not so much Apples and Pears as Apples and Spuds.

Fact is, NI/IFA need an international-standard stadium for half a dozen international matches every year, with Windsor being "the only game in town". Which was re-built using £26m from our originally allocated budget of £62m. Every game now attracts a full house eg at home to Belarus (no away fans) in a fairly meaningless game last month, crappy weather and adult tickets starting at over £40, yet still it sold out easily a fortnight in advance. Meanwhile, the venue is also used for other games eg Cup Finals, European club ties, womens internationals etc, as well as being made available to Linfield for their domestic games. (I say "made available" since the IFA now owns Windsor, with LFC being tenants.)

Compare that with the GAA who are looking for £150m+ over and above their original allocation of £62m, to stage precisely one full house a year (their projections), while they have another (VAT-free) venue in Clones (or Croke for a really big final), which has proven adequate up until now.

But yeah, £200m+ of public money for that? An absolute bargain...