Messages

[if Celtic and Rangers were wiped of the planet, there would still be massive problems in scotland with violence and tribalism- would you not agree?]

if Celtic and Rangers were wiped of the planet, there would still be massive problems in scotland with violence and tribalism- would you not agree?

They wouldn't be any where near as severe.  it costs the police £2.4 million to police the old firm fixture.  Domestic violence increases massively around the fixture.

The Old Firm aren't independent of Scotland's social problems, rather, they act as an intensifier and mulitplier by throwing extra bigotry and tribalism into areas where poverty, alcoholism etc are already rife.

I would not quite put you on the same shelf with McNee, but don't provoke me

I'll take offence to that.

I'm a far better journalist. 

I certainly have not got the impression that you are as broad  minded as you claim. And part of why you are here is not to discuss but rather to give vent to your type of Scottishness and the moral superiority of your pacifist world view vis a vis  selected aspects of republican ideology.
If you wish to discuss these matters, as I suggested start another thread. It would appear that you have much to learn about morality and violence.

That others choose a football stadium as a place to celebrate acts of violence would not suggest that I'm the one with much to learn about either morality or violence.

We differ in our opinions on that - cool.  We both live in modern european democracies where that sort of thing should be encouraged.  But to base the identity of a football club in another country on one strain of irish political thought is rather strange, no?

On the modern wave of the pollution of Scottish culture by hoards of Irish bigots
It would make no difference to Celtic fc, its ethos  or the traditions it is rooted in, if there were no travelling support from Ireland. If Scots today feel it is an integral part of their identity to celebrate aspects of Irish republican culture as espoused by the founding honourable patron Michael Davitt, it might be advisable for you to stretch your Scottishness at least to a point of respect.

Its a rare celtic fan that sings about land reform.

Is this a rant against some Irish who go over and follow Celtic as if they are low breed bigots, that's rather condescending of you.

against bigots full stop. Be they irish bigots that come over to watch rangers or celtic, or our own home grown arseholes

You'd suspect very very wrong.

Bigots whoever they follow aren't welcome in scottish football.

Genuine football supporters whoever they follow are.

There is no one scottish culture - there's many, and a lot of them have broad definitions.

Thinking that public expressions of hate and violence are stupid and outdated does not make a send them back type, no matter what you think.

[republican]

It's sad when the flying of the tricolour at Celtic Park is regarded as a bigoted act, a deliberate attempt to play the sectarian card, rather than what it is, a club staying true to its founding ethos, Scottish and Irish.

No-one has suggested it it.  Its a flag in celtic colours, flown at celtic games.

It's the irish tricolour flag that is flown at Celtic Park on match days.

And yes, reference has been made about Celtic fans brandishing the tricolour, alluding to that it was a weapon of hate. And that the basis of the club was to play the flag/irish issue as if it was the flip side in a game of bigots with Rangers.

The songs glorifying murderers leave a sour note.  And despite the Kevin Lynch players on here trying to deflect and deny it, the celtic happily sings songs in praise of the provos.

The only murder song I've heard Celtic fans sing  is the McAnespie song, and there is no glorification

If it's the provo add on, 'ooh ahh up the raa', it's definitely not appropriate at a football game.
But if you want to put a magnifying glass on that, don't expect me to take you seriously, that that reflects malevolence on the fans in general  or the ethos of the club. 

If you have deliberate political opinions/bias on republican violence from the recent past, then I suggest you take it to the thread that abhors some violence  but is somehow at ease with other forms of violence. Or start a thread that abhors all forms of violence, call it the Jain thread 

Everyone has deliberate political opinions.  But no, it's not limited to republican violence.  But there's no argument if I said that rangers supporters glorify murderers.  You know it, I know it, they'll deny it, but they won't come on here to deny it.

The Glasgow press love to play semantics "is "hun" sectarian?" "is "fenian" sectarian?" "is it the old or new ira/uvf they're singing about?" .  That's not the point - there is a significant minority within both supports that seeks to import the violence and hatred that marked the conflict in Northern Ireland into Scottish football.

LDA, I and the vast majority of Scots are thoroughly sick of it.  We don't recognise it, we don't understand it, it's not part of our culture, yet every football match involving either of those teams turns into a party political broadcast from the 18th century.

If Irishmen want to celebrate their culture, why can't they do it in Ireland, at Irish football games?  We've got enough problems of our own to deal with already.

It's sad when the flying of the tricolour at Celtic Park is regarded as a bigoted act, a deliberate attempt to play the sectarian card, rather than what it is, a club staying true to its founding ethos, Scottish and Irish.

No-one has suggested it it.  Its a flag in celtic colours, flown at celtic games.

The songs glorifying murderers leave a sour note.  And despite the Kevin Lynch players on here trying to deflect and deny it, the celtic happily sings songs in praise of the provos.

[wouldnt be in agreement with you there]

I don't think so. I think the rest of the Scottish fans despise the Old Firm for the fact that they have exploited sectarianism for mutual gain - carving up the spoils in Scottish football as a result - for over a century. The vast majority of the fans of other clubs couldn't give a shit about Irish politics yet since time immemorial have been subjected to morons brandishing red hand flags/tricolours and singing about being up to their knees in blood or blowing people up. And in the case of Celtic the bleating about how everybody is against them when in reality they have always been very much part of the establishment is tiresome.  Really they are both just horrible football clubs, and that's why the rest of Scottish football don't like them.

wouldnt be in agreement with you there
- i'd say the reason for dislike/hatred is the success of the two glasgow clubs. plus the townies v hicks old global feud.
- whats sectarian about an Irish Tricolour flag - or even how it is brandished.....come off it...
- what songs celebrate blowing people up- I dont know too many and certainly never heard them sung at CP.

Well that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those are however some of the key reasons for the dislike many Scottish football fans have for the Old Firm, or the "bigot brothers" as they are more commonly known amongst Scottish football fans.

well it was nothing personal there fella.

I'm happy to say that Celtic are disliked by many if not all clubs in scotland - or elements of them, but apart from the potential for jealosy, I cannot see too many jocks disliking one or the other because of 'bigotry' ! no harm to you folks, but for the 75% of the population, thats a bit too above their level - and I am trying not to put that in a bad way - the working classes just dont or wont be too bothered about that. imo.

but I would like to hear your response to my other parts in my last post . no problem if not.

That is both horrendously arrogant, and utter shite.

The average Scot is well aware of what bigotry is - it's not above us, it's beneath us.  We're better than that, and we loathe the Old Firm for dragging us down.

People like the guy whom my avatar is based on don't tend to help the stereotypical image of Old Firm followers held by many others.

btw, what was the Rule 42 crowd's reaction to International Rules Football and compromise rules Shinty-Hurling, given that both Aussie Rules and Shinty are foreign games, and played by "Crown Forces" in their respective nations?

EDIT: just seen that Rule 42 was "non-Gaelic" games, which would include shinty and International Rules.

- what songs celebrate blowing people up- I dont know too many and certainly never heard them sung at CP.

Really? You've never heard any "ooh, aah, up the 'RA" chants from Celtic fans?

Old Firm supporters are renowned for their selective hearing.  Your average celtic fan can hear the word fenian whispered from over 500yds away but not hear Sean South* being given full volume in the stadium they're standing in.

*I know this song doesn't celebrate blowing people up, it celebrates a British Army victory 

we also sing Aiden McAnespie, would you describe that as a British Army victory as well?

Nope.

Aiden was illegally shot for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, by soldiers who weren't adhering to their own rules, let alone anyone elses.  Pointless, horrible incident.

Sean South was taking part in an armed raid on a barracks and was shot for it.  Flee with the craws, get shot with the craws.

But why sing either at a football match?

the feeling of solidarty and comradeship of 60,000 people belting out songs of Irish history is hard to beat my friend. nothing more sinister than that. it also keeps the memory of people like Aiden alive.

Is Irish domestic culture so weak that you need to hang on to a Scottish football club to do that?

- what songs celebrate blowing people up- I dont know too many and certainly never heard them sung at CP.

Really? You've never heard any "ooh, aah, up the 'RA" chants from Celtic fans?

Old Firm supporters are renowned for their selective hearing.  Your average celtic fan can hear the word fenian whispered from over 500yds away but not hear Sean South* being given full volume in the stadium they're standing in.

*I know this song doesn't celebrate blowing people up, it celebrates a British Army victory 

we also sing Aiden McAnespie, would you describe that as a British Army victory as well?

Nope.

Aiden was illegally shot for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, by soldiers who weren't adhering to their own rules, let alone anyone elses.  Pointless, horrible incident.

Sean South was taking part in an armed raid on a barracks and was shot for it.  Flee with the craws, get shot with the craws.

But why sing either at a football match?

- what songs celebrate blowing people up- I dont know too many and certainly never heard them sung at CP.

Really? You've never heard any "ooh, aah, up the 'RA" chants from Celtic fans?

Old Firm supporters are renowned for their selective hearing.  Your average celtic fan can hear the word fenian whispered from over 500yds away but not hear Sean South* being given full volume in the stadium they're standing in.

*I know this song doesn't celebrate blowing people up, it celebrates a British Army victory 

- i'd say the reason for dislike/hatred is the success of the two glasgow clubs. plus the townies v hicks old global feud.

Aye, such a shame that people from Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh are hicks.  If only those cities were like Glasgow, they could be the centre of Europe's energy industry, have a flourishing regeneration and a world famous cultural festival.

btw, I've been reading your username as "jay-shoch", is that right, nearly right, or miles away?

Ca-man-akh-k

Or Camanash-ed if you'r english, and encountering the word for the first time.

My wife rarely conceals her exasperation at pronunciations in Irish. Despite this, she gets very stroppy if anyone mispronounces her beloved Berkshire

It's not so much the pronounciation as the complete lack of it:-

"bh" = "v", except when it doesn't and remains silent
"ch" = "ch", except when it doesn't remains silent
"dh" = " "
"gh" = "ch", except when it doesn't and remains silent
"mh" = "v", except when it doesn't and remains silent
"sh" = " "
"th" = " "

It's a minefield.

I doubt many non-Scots could pronounce "Kirkcudbright", "Anstruther", "Garioch", "Milngavie" or "Footdee" correctly first round.