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Vallankamous you've spent three (I didn't count em) pages splitting hairs. Everybody accepts you didn't vote on sectarian lines, can we please leave it at that.

His doctor encourages him to engage on these websites as it prevents him from his usual habit of eating the feathers in his pillow

That's incorrect

Tribal is the same as sectarian. When the tribes are religious . Rangers v Celtic is sectarian.

I was really offended ever time I heard the result called sectarian. I know I'm not sectarian and have so much more faith in the people of the north. Now it seems I'm the only one.
Rather than refute the charge of sectarianism the sub conscious in the northern mind set will try to dilute the word. Seems like years of propaganda has become the reality.

Ok vallankumous, I get where you're coming from. Sectarian is probably the incorrect word. Would tribal deecribe it better?

Yes, much better word and probably accurate. Tribal is an acceptable political position too.

did the inability to accept the Irish language as a badge of cultural identity act as a vote gatherer ?

Yes, I think so.
However, it is not sectarian. I disagree wholey with it but it is a ligit political position.

the correlation between religion and political party is well in excess of 90%
But if you don't think that is sectarian, carry on

I think its tribal. Credit Farrendeelin

I didn't vote SF because I hate everything British. In my opinion, many DUP voters voted DUP because they hate everything Irish.

Also, this is what the Collin's English Dictionary defines sectarianism as: Sectarian means resulting from the differences between different religions. .

They give other definitions such as:

.
1.
of, belonging or relating to, or characteristic of sects or sectaries
2.
adhering to a particular sect, faction, or doctrine
3.
narrow-minded, esp as a result of rigid adherence to a particular sect



Therefore there doesn't need to be religious intolerance for something to be classified as sectarian.

Yes it does mean you are opposed to all other faith. If it didn't then every Person of Faith would be sectarian. The Pope, the Dali Lama, Ghandi all could be included in your definition.

Ok you didn't vote Sf because you hate everything British. That is not my argument.
My argument is, did you vote SF because you hate everything protestant? If you did then fair enough, you are sectarian.
Are you ok with your decision on who to vote got is being described as a vote by someone who hates everything protestant?

Hard station is talking sense and as soon as we all lead like this instead of letting lazy journalists and greedy politicians lead us we will get logic in our politics.

If the north of Ireland was not split into Catholic and Protestant areas, with Catholic and Protestant schools, sports organisations, etc, then it wouldn't be called a sectarian headcount. But Catholics almost exclusively vote nationalist because they are brought up in an inter-meshed catholic/nationalist identity and way of life (and vice versa for protestants). The day that Catholic does not almost definitely mean nationalist, and likewise for protestant/unionist, will be the day you can say it's not a sectarian headcount.

This is the definition of Sectarian

(a person) strongly supporting a particular religious group and not willing to accept other beliefs:

Do you think the inability to accept Protestantism as a religious belief motivated people to vote SF in the recent election?

I'd like to hope not, but I do think the inability to accept Irish culture, beliefs and nationhood - which in this statelet means Catholocism - was a driving factor in huge swathes of the DUP vote. In the north of Ireland, a religion is not simply which version of God you believe in or which prayer is said before you go to sleep.

I can't believe how hard people will try to justify a false accusation of sectarianism against themselves.

Ok vallankumous, I get where you're coming from. Sectarian is probably the incorrect word. Would tribal deecribe it better?

Yes, much better word and probably accurate. Tribal is an acceptable political position too.

did the inability to accept the Irish language as a badge of cultural identity act as a vote gatherer ?

Yes, I think so.
However, it is not sectarian. I disagree wholey with it but it is a ligit political position.

If the north of Ireland was not split into Catholic and Protestant areas, with Catholic and Protestant schools, sports organisations, etc, then it wouldn't be called a sectarian headcount. But Catholics almost exclusively vote nationalist because they are brought up in an inter-meshed catholic/nationalist identity and way of life (and vice versa for protestants). The day that Catholic does not almost definitely mean nationalist, and likewise for protestant/unionist, will be the day you can say it's not a sectarian headcount.

This is the definition of Sectarian

(a person) strongly supporting a particular religious group and not willing to accept other beliefs:

Do you think the inability to accept Protestantism as a religious belief motivated people to vote SF in the recent election?

How much Dutch Gold have you had today? You better get home before Mammy comes looking for you.

Here was me enjoying a decent discussion.

I have no doubt not all do but unfortunately quite a few would. If they didn't then why would they have to lower themselves to the lowest common denominator?

The way the dup have lowered themselves this last while the mind really boggles as to why any right thinking person would vote for them.

Not all unionism is the same brand as the dup so i don't equate what they stand for to what all unionists stand for.

My issue is with it being referred to a sectarian head count and in so casting a massive shadow over the good people of the north who deserve better.

I know that if I called someone sectarian they would be insulted and deny it genuinely. Yet, it gets bandied about without question when applied to voters (people) in the north. I have major issue with that.

Anyone who voted SF or DUP are being described as sectarian. There are many posters on here who probably did vote SF. I honestly believe tey did not do that with a sectarian motive. I think they did it for political motives. Nationalism, Republicanism, United Ireland, Corruption, Irish Language, LGBT stance etc. Not one of them will say they voted SF because SF are catholic. Not one will say they didn't vote UUP because UUP are protestant. I believe that and I also believe it of Unionist voters.

I didn't vote but I would have voted SF. And I'm sick of people like the UUP the SDLP and RTE claiming it would have been for sectarian reasons.
I would say that all the posters on here that voted SF, when they hear it being described as a sectarian vote, think - Well it is but it's not me they're talking about it's some voters somewhere else that voted SF. I say it is you they are talking about and they are wrong.

I would strongly disagree where the dup are concerned. They have a strong fear and that is what their rhetoric is based on. Nationalists and catholics would be synonymous in their eyes from anything i can see.

I can't remember the exact thing they said to sdlp the other year but i remember thinking how little these guys have moved on at all.

Not sure how you don't see this to be honest.

I have more faith in Unionism and the electorate. I know how politicians can sometimes lower themselves to the lowest common denominator and the DUP do this often but I also believe that most unionists and protestants do not choose to vote on that and see through it as I do.

Before the shinners got into politics there was only one nationalist party and a few independents who were Catholics, even then they didn't vote unionists parties...

you can dress it up any way you want but voting is based on religious lines so in essence it becomes a sectarian head count... and I don't mean sectarian in a bad way just themons and usses

Yes, as most Catholics are Nationalist and as I'm at pains to get across, Nationalists do not vote Unionists as they are the opposites. Why is that difficult?

There is no good way to call something sectarian.

It seems to me that some people seem to lose the concept of political norms as soon as you through in an extra issue.

If it wasn't sectarian, right wing catholics and right wing Protestants would vote for the same party.

Why would a right wing Catholic Unionist vote for a Republican Party?
Or, why would a right wing Protestant Republican vote for a Unionist party?

I accept that Republicanism and Unionism are the major factors in deciding whether to vote Republican or Unionist. I do not accept voting Republicanism as an attack on protestantism is a factor.

I would say it is the same thing in their eyes.

That's were we disagree.

Unionist nowadays like FG & the Tories have always, have no fear of Catholicism. They have a fear of Republicanism.

I know of no catholic nationalists that live in republican areas that voted unionists political parties...

If NI people did vote based on jobs economics health education welfare then we'd have a different leading party at Stormont... all I heard from this election was stop the nationalists from getting power and equality and corruption from the others. Not once did I hear about jobs education etc etc

Yes, catholics in the north tend to be Nationalist and/or Republican. Of course they didn't vote for Unionist parties when there are options between Nationalist and/or Republican parties.
That's not sectarian.


It's no different than left or right. I know no left wingers that vote FG as they are left wing. They vote for Lab/SF/ Socialist?PBP etc. Working class people tend to vote left and middle class tend to vote right. These are ligitimate political positions. Now, if working class people tended to be old and middle class people tended to be yong pundits would call it an agism vote even though it's not.

What was the dup policy? We're not them?

Was it we're not them or we're not Catholic?

You doubt if anyone voted for the DUP because they don't like Catholics?you're joking surely?

Honestly, ask yourself that question.

[their desire to have their vote count in the sectarian headcount trumps their desire to vote for the Conservative party]

Would agree with a lot of that, but Both the DUP and UUP have espoused right wing policies for years. The poor showing of the Conservatives in 6 county elections, is not because the North has a strong left wing bias, but rather that most Northern Torys are assured that Tory politics will be predominant in the main unionist parties, and their desire to have their vote count in the sectarian headcount trumps their desire to vote for the Conservative party.

I don't think it's a sectarian head count. Republicanism and Unionism are perfectly ok political positions to hold. Unionism and Republicanism and bonuses for many voters and usually not enough to win a vote. If they were there'd be no need for more than two parties.
I doubt if more than a few idiots voted SF because they don't like protestants and I doubt if anyone voted DUP because they don't like catholics. Voting for republicanism or unionism for the sake of republicanism or unionism is not sectarian.

You really believe that a very tiny minority vote based on what part of the street the were born on?

Even if they voted for their side of the street it is not sectarian.

I believe people vote for a certain party for many reason.
In this case there are the many social reasons but also the big national reason.
I think unionists decided to support a unionist party then decided which one for social or economic reasons. Also to oppose SF who are republican which in this case is the opposite to unionism. None of that is sectarian.
I do not believe for one second that anyone (or more than a few idiots) voted to oppose a religion they are not part of.
No party stood on a platform of sectarianism. A very common theme was Unionism and Republicanism. If anyone voted for these as their primary reason they are perfectly entitled to do so. They re not sectarian positions. I think many voted for a candidate who's religious views are in line with their own, be it on abortion or gay marriage etc. Again, not sectarian and a perfectly acceptable was to choose who to vote for.

As a catholic and a nationalist I know nobody who would decide to vote against protestantism. I afford that same respect in confidence that my protestant neighbours did not vote against me as I'm catholic. I give them more credit than that. Though, many pundits claim that it is the case by their references to sectarian head count.