It might be seen as a bit early to start this thread but I for one can't wait for this game, there's a fair few mentions of the game on other threads already and I don't think there's a better way to start it than with this from Connaughton which pretty much sums up the situation from a Westmeath point of view.
QuoteLeague win irrelevant, Connaughton insists
11 June 2008
Gary Connaughton claims Westmeath's victory over Dublin in this year's NFL Division 2 final will count for nothing when the sides renew their rivalry in the Leinster SFC semi-final on June 29.
The Tubberclair goalkeeper captained the Lake County to a 0-15 to 0-10 win in Dessie Dolan's absence at Navan in late April but significantly, the Dubs were missing a host of key players through suspension.
"What happened in the league final was nothing," Connaughton insisted.
"Dublin at Croke Park are a serious outfit. They have the extra man with the support nearly, the 16th man which is always an advantage to them. It's definitely for other teams in Leinster now to stand up to them and try to wrestle it (the provincial title) away from Dublin."
After beating midland rivals Longford and Offaly to get this far, Connaughton believes the pressure is now off Westmeath to a certain extent.
"After getting over the first few rounds and the two teams that were put in front of us, we'll probably be underdogs against Dublin but that's the challenge we have to face on the day.
"The main part of the year so far was about staying in Division 2 and getting into a Leinster semi-final then. Now we're there we don't want to rest, it's only a semi-final, something we were at a couple of years ago."
He added: "We want to be up lifting the Delaney Cup again. But that's for another day again. The Leinster semi-final was definitely a realistic target at the start of the year and we've made it now."
As Connaughton alludes to, the pressure was on to beat Longford and Offaly as there was a slight bit of expectation on Westmeath for both games. Nobody's expecting anything more than a decent performance against the Dubs and from a Westmeath point of view I'm hopeful this will have a positive impact on our performance.
I expect another poor game with WestMeath.... Dublin to win tho!
I would agree that the league final cant be an indication as to how it will go as it was a seriously depleted Dublin side.
That said, this is a very decent Westmeath team and Dublin will need to be on top of their game to win.
A repeat of the weekends first half performance and they could be in serious trouble.
I predict a tight battle with the Dubs squeezing through by one or two points, but wouldnt be at all suprised to see Westmeath win it.
Be very interesting to see what Dublin team is picked.
Grifin doesnt seem to be ready so Shocko should retain the 4 jersey. I'd have Moran back at 7, Cahill at 6 and drop Cullen.
Bernard Brogan will certainly come in for Paddy Andrews, but if he does push Moran back, then it gives the opportunity to bring in either Whelan or Flynn. I'd love to see Whelan and Keaney alternating between third midfielder (wing forward) and full forward.
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 01:19:57 PM
I would agree that the league final cant be an indication as to how it will go as it was a seriously depleted Dublin side.
That said, this is a very decent Westmeath team and Dublin will need to be on top of their game to win.
A repeat of the weekends first half performance and they could be in serious trouble.
I predict a tight battle with the Dubs squeezing through by one or two points, but wouldnt be at all suprised to see Westmeath win it.
Agree with most of that. It's going to be very tight either way. Westmeath play with 13 men behind the ball and have a very effective system.
Going for Dubs by 2/3, but like you wouldn't be surprised if Westmeath won..
Quote from: heffo on June 11, 2008, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 01:19:57 PM
I would agree that the league final cant be an indication as to how it will go as it was a seriously depleted Dublin side.
That said, this is a very decent Westmeath team and Dublin will need to be on top of their game to win.
A repeat of the weekends first half performance and they could be in serious trouble.
I predict a tight battle with the Dubs squeezing through by one or two points, but wouldnt be at all suprised to see Westmeath win it.
Agree with most of that. It's going to be very tight either way. Westmeath play with 13 men behind the ball and have a very effective system.
Going for Dubs by 2/3, but like you wouldn't be surprised if Westmeath won..
Westmeath must have impressed you in the last couple of matches Heffo, or else you aren't rating Dublin as highly as you were, either way I recall you scoffing at the notion that Westmeath could match Dublin at full strength this year....
That aside I think most synopsis above are fair and would be what people are expecting at this stage. Dublin will of course be the favourites but an upset should not be entirely unexpected.
Quote from: AN other on June 11, 2008, 02:12:35 PM
Quote from: heffo on June 11, 2008, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 01:19:57 PM
I would agree that the league final cant be an indication as to how it will go as it was a seriously depleted Dublin side.
That said, this is a very decent Westmeath team and Dublin will need to be on top of their game to win.
A repeat of the weekends first half performance and they could be in serious trouble.
I predict a tight battle with the Dubs squeezing through by one or two points, but wouldnt be at all suprised to see Westmeath win it.
Agree with most of that. It's going to be very tight either way. Westmeath play with 13 men behind the ball and have a very effective system.
Going for Dubs by 2/3, but like you wouldn't be surprised if Westmeath won..
Westmeath must have impressed you in the last couple of matches Heffo, or else you aren't rating Dublin as highly as you were, either way I recall you scoffing at the notion that Westmeath could match Dublin at full strength this year....
That aside I think most synopsis above are fair and would be what people are expecting at this stage. Dublin will of course be the favourites but an upset should not be entirely unexpected.
Westmeath have impressed me and have improved hugely from the first league game in Parnell. I still think Dublin will win, but they won't racking up cricket scores in doing so, because of Westmeath's system.
We learnt nothing about Dublin last Sunday, so it's impossible to gauge what their form will be like Sunday two weeks.
Westmeath are very good defensively but they won't rack up enough scores at the other end to seriously trouble Dublin. I think there will be at least 4 points in it at the end.
OK.......League form might not count for much but if it did.........the most important match results in Division 2 included.........
Westmeath beat Dublin in league final.
Westmeath beat Armagh by 5......Dublin got hammered by 9.
Westmeath beat Monaghan by 2 in Clones in a decider......Dublin drew at home.
Westmeath beat Meath by 5....Dubs win by 1.
No reason for us to be too confident. Should be interesting.......
Quote from: dubsnsubs on June 11, 2008, 02:57:02 PM
OK.......League form might not count for much but if it did.........the most important match results in Division 2 included.........
Westmeath beat Dublin in league final.
Westmeath beat Armagh by 5......Dublin got hammered by 9.
Westmeath beat Monaghan by 2 in Clones in a decider......Dublin drew at home.
Westmeath beat Meath by 5....Dubs win by 1.
No reason for us to be too confident. Should be interesting.......
If we are not confident of beating WestMeath we shouldnt think must further than the Q/F this year
Quote from: dubsnsubs on June 11, 2008, 02:57:02 PM
OK.......League form might not count for much but if it did.........the most important match results in Division 2 included.........
Westmeath beat Dublin in league final.
Westmeath beat Armagh by 5......Dublin got hammered by 9.
Westmeath beat Monaghan by 2 in Clones in a decider......Dublin drew at home.
Westmeath beat Meath by 5....Dubs win by 1.
No reason for us to be too confident. Should be interesting.......
Whatever about picking out certain league games it should also be remembered that Dublin finished ahead of Westmeath in the league table, so its not all doom and gloom ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: dubsnsubs on June 11, 2008, 02:57:02 PM
OK.......League form might not count for much but if it did.........the most important match results in Division 2 included.........
Westmeath beat Dublin in league final.
Westmeath beat Armagh by 5......Dublin got hammered by 9.
Westmeath beat Monaghan by 2 in Clones in a decider......Dublin drew at home.
Westmeath beat Meath by 5....Dubs win by 1.
No reason for us to be too confident. Should be interesting.......
Whatever about picking out certain league games it should also be remembered that Dublin finished ahead of Westmeath in the league table, so its not all doom and gloom ;)
Let's not be forgetting about the two handy league points Dublin picked up against Cork!!!
Not that I want to be talking up our chances at all....
Quote from: AN other on June 11, 2008, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: dubsnsubs on June 11, 2008, 02:57:02 PM
OK.......League form might not count for much but if it did.........the most important match results in Division 2 included.........
Westmeath beat Dublin in league final.
Westmeath beat Armagh by 5......Dublin got hammered by 9.
Westmeath beat Monaghan by 2 in Clones in a decider......Dublin drew at home.
Westmeath beat Meath by 5....Dubs win by 1.
No reason for us to be too confident. Should be interesting.......
Whatever about picking out certain league games it should also be remembered that Dublin finished ahead of Westmeath in the league table, so its not all doom and gloom ;)
Let's not be forgetting about the three handy league points Dublin picked up against Cork!!!
Not that I want to be talking up our chances at all....
Would have bate them anyway, gang of posers! ;)
Should that not be Áth Cliath vs An Iarmhí? :P
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2008, 04:57:06 PM
Should that not be Áth Cliath vs An Iarmhí? :P
well spotted Donagh, as a North County boy thats a bit insulting ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2008, 04:57:06 PM
Should that not be Áth Cliath vs An Iarmhí? :P
well spotted Donagh, as a North County boy thats a bit insulting ;)
No insult intended!
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2008, 04:57:06 PM
Should that not be Áth Cliath vs An Iarmhí? :P
Sure what would ANOther know, sure he thinks u get 3 points for a win in the league ;D
Westmeath have it all to do, will be very surprised if Flan plays a part, his experience around the middle and long range free taking will be sorely missed. If we keep the Dubs to a low score, we have a chance, a right chance. Glennon and Budda need a kick up de hole for Sunday fortnight as both were shocking the last day, Budda will be lucky to start actually...
Wonder how many times we're gonna be subjected to the term "defensively minded Westmeath" in the next three weeks??? ::)
Quote from: dubsnsubs on June 11, 2008, 02:57:02 PM
OK.......League form might not count for much but if it did.........the most important match results in Division 2 included.........
Westmeath beat Dublin in league final.
Westmeath beat Armagh by 5......Dublin got hammered by 9.
Westmeath beat Monaghan by 2 in Clones in a decider......Dublin drew at home.
Westmeath beat Meath by 5....Dubs win by 1.
No reason for us to be too confident. Should be interesting.......
:D Yous have a good bit to go before yous can threaten the Yerraman for cuteness...
Sure this game is Westmeaths to loose ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 05:25:50 PM
Sure this game is Westmeaths to loose ;)
Are u taking over from GNevin as our resident illiterate Dub nb??? :P
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 11, 2008, 05:30:48 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 11, 2008, 05:25:50 PM
Sure this game is Westmeaths to loose ;)
Are u taking over from GNevin as our resident illiterate Dub nb??? :P
:'(
that cut me deep man, cut me deep.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 11, 2008, 05:13:14 PM
Sure what would ANOther know, sure he thinks u get 3 points for a win in the league ;D
In the premier league maybe...
Otherwise I don't have the foggiest what you're talking about....
Quote from: AN other on June 11, 2008, 06:06:26 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 11, 2008, 05:13:14 PM
Sure what would ANOther know, sure he thinks u get 3 points for a win in the league ;D
In the premier league maybe...
Otherwise I don't have the foggiest what you're talking about....
"Let's not be forgetting about the three handy league points Dublin picked up against Cork!!!"
Quote from: heffo on June 11, 2008, 06:11:22 PM
"Let's not be forgetting about the three handy league points Dublin picked up against Cork!!!"
I never said that!!!! ;)
To be honest if we can kick good scores against Derry, Kerry etc we should be able to kick a good score against Westmeath in all honesty
they play a different system to them. i think they may have problems sustaining that system on a big pitch and will run out of gas enabling us to pull away in the latter stages. but i don;t see us putting up a huge score mate they have better defenders than we do, but i'd expect dublin to win by 5-6 points by pulling away in the latter stages. but it's going to be ahell of a battle.
I know they play a different system but Derry especially have a very strong and usually defensive system. I never said we would put up a huge score but if we kick 1-12 or so like we did the last time they won't win.....The big problem Westmeath will have is scoring enough to win the game playing the way they do - They scored 2-11 only against Offaly who were down to 14 men for a good while and who's keeper was terrible....
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 11, 2008, 11:57:24 PM
Offaly who were down to 14 men for a good while and who's keeper was terrible....
You spout alot of arrogant bull that I couldn't be bothered responding to Dubsforsam but can you give some instances of where the Offaly keeper was "terrible" the last day?
2-11 is a good score, will win 95% of games dsfm. they have accurate forwards in dolan,glennon,bannon,mangan and flanagan. midfield is the key for them. we scored 1-21 with total midfiedl dominance against louth, you won't get anywhere near that dominance against westmeath. it will all come down to how long westmeath can sustain their system in the game and whether they can hit enough scores on the break. if they can sustain it for 70mins it could be very close.
Quote from: AN other on June 12, 2008, 09:21:30 AM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 11, 2008, 11:57:24 PM
Offaly who were down to 14 men for a good while and who's keeper was terrible....
You spout alot of arrogant bull that I couldn't be bothered responding to Dubsforsam but can you give some instances of where the Offaly keeper was "terrible" the last day?
Well when you see a keeper 15 yards from his goal and forwards putting it into an empty net that is terrible
Indiana - I agree 2-11 was a decent score but do you think they will score that against Dublin? While we won't get as much midfield dominance against Westmeath Paddy Keenan is a very good midfielder and the Louth full forward line is highly rated yet we still have Whelan/Brogan to enter the starting lineup and Flynn/Connolly onto the bench now so we will be far stronger also....We also scored 1-22 and missed a few goal chances and kicked some very bad wides so I can see us kicking a decent score...The teams who have beaten Dublin are the ones who attacked us and outscored us rather than the ones who try to defend and limit our scoring...
I don't think its a coincidence that Dublin's strike rate was about 40% in the first half and over 75% in the second v Louth. Far easier to kick scores when under no pressure. Therefore I think the 1-22 is irrelevant when trying to estimate what Dublin will score the next day.
It was also noticeable that anytime Louth ran at us, they cut through us down the middle like a hot knife through butter. Its probably a bit harsh to blame it all on Cullen, but he was noticeably flailing when forlornly chasing lads who'd got by him.
I think Fennell's contribution has been over-rated. He has done well, but he's a long way from All Star potential. He seems to have great heart, he's a great man to win a ball, and when he gets his hand on the ball he rarely drops it, but when the opposition are in possession his lack of pace and athleticism is a weakness.
I really like our full back line. But even against Louth each one of them got the run-around at least once. And while Ross has done excellently for a young lad being played out of position, in such an important position, the fact remains he's still very much learning how to play the role, and will make mistakes.
This game is far from in the bag, and while I'd be hopeful of winning because of our strong forward line and we should have a good bench, ignoring that Westmeath beat us comprehenisvely in the league final would be perilous.
Hound - How can the league final be relevant when we were without McConnell/Shocko/Griffen in the full back line, Casey/Cahill playing out of position there instead, Whelan/Fennell missing from midfield and Brogan, Brogan and Quinn missing from the forward line?
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 13, 2008, 08:22:39 AM
Hound - How can the league final be relevant when we were without McConnell/Shocko/Griffen in the full back line, Casey/Cahill playing out of position there instead, Whelan/Fennell missing from midfield and Brogan, Brogan and Quinn missing from the forward line?
Both teams were missing their best forward. In addition the return of Bernard Brogan and a partner for Ryan should significantly improve Dublin, and we will have a better bench, but there is a deserved five point deficit to over-come, and it would be foolish in the extreme to ignore how Westmeath accomplished that.
it's quite relevent because you were the one champagning our strength in depth which was found severely lacking that night and blew that theory out of the water. you seem to think these guys are going to be a walk in the park. most of them beat dublin in croke park in 2004 so they aren't going to be fearful of playing dublin in front a near enough full house.
I agree with almost everything Hound says. I don;t think the louth game was any benefit whatsoever in the long run especially as they packed it in with 25 to go, and i think these guys are going to give us a hell of a battle.
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 12, 2008, 07:08:16 PM
Well when you see a keeper 15 yards from his goal and forwards putting it into an empty net that is terrible
Perhaps you're right, but I didn't consider the Offaly keeper at fault for any of Westmeath's goals. I certainly wouldn't have classed his performance as terrible.
Although it's a little frustrating to read you giving absolutely no acknowledgement to anything Westmeath have done this year or years past, I hope there's plenty of similar attitudes to your own within the Dublin team and management and few of the informed, considered and balanced ones that the majority of Dublin posters here seem to be offering so far... There is the possiblity that Dublin will blow Westmeath off the park but I think it will have to be a very much under par performance from Westmeath for this to happen and it's attitudes like your own that would make a Westmeath victory very sweet indeed.
Quote from: AN other on June 13, 2008, 09:30:09 AM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 12, 2008, 07:08:16 PM
Well when you see a keeper 15 yards from his goal and forwards putting it into an empty net that is terrible
Perhaps you're right, but I didn't consider the Offaly keeper at fault for any of Westmeath's goals. I certainly wouldn't have classed his performance as terrible.
Although it's a little frustrating to read you giving absolutely no acknowledgement to anything Westmeath have done this year or years past, I hope there's plenty of similar attitudes to your own within the Dublin team and management and few of the informed, considered and balanced ones that the majority of Dublin posters here seem to be offering so far... There is the possiblity that Dublin will blow Westmeath off the park but I think it will have to be a very much under par performance from Westmeath for this to happen and it's attitudes like your own that would make a Westmeath victory very sweet indeed.
I don't think anyone is underestimating Westmeath or think theres going to be a cricket score in it either way, as most posters from Dublin are alluding to..it's going to be very tight.
I do think Dublin will edge it in the last 15 minutes, but W/Meath have a very good full back line, good midfield, v good forwards and are very accurate from frees, though Keane seems to have the hex over Vaughan, so maybe he won't be as tight on whoever he picks up (Brogan?)
Quote from: INDIANA on June 13, 2008, 08:54:52 AM
it's quite relevent because you were the one champagning our strength in depth which was found severely lacking that night and blew that theory out of the water. you seem to think these guys are going to be a walk in the park. most of them beat dublin in croke park in 2004 so they aren't going to be fearful of playing dublin in front a near enough full house.
In fairness though Indiana, it looked like we had far better strength in depth from numbers 16-22 or so..especially compared to years gone by when we had no-one on the bench to change things (Tyrone replay 2005)...
Quote from: heffo on June 13, 2008, 09:51:28 AM
I don't think anyone is underestimating Westmeath or think theres going to be a cricket score in it either way, as most posters from Dublin are alluding to..it's going to be very tight.
Most are yes.
Quote from: AN other on June 13, 2008, 10:00:54 AM
Quote from: heffo on June 13, 2008, 09:51:28 AM
I don't think anyone is underestimating Westmeath or think theres going to be a cricket score in it either way, as most posters from Dublin are alluding to..it's going to be very tight.
Most are yes.
Who? The ra ra ra brigade who take their lead from the Herald or Dublin supporters who understand how football works?
Most posters from Dublin are predicting a tight enough game Heffo, as I alluded to myself... everybody apart from DFS basically...
Quote from: AN other on June 13, 2008, 10:08:23 AM
Most posters from Dublin are predicting a tight enough game Heffo, as I alluded to myself... everybody apart from DFS basically...
DFS is as entitled to his opinion as the rest of us...how do you think it's going to go - prediction with your head, not your heart!
it is to a point stronger heffo, obviously connolly,andrews will be a hell of an impact sub along with vaughan, but i'm not sure he'll even be used by the current management. i'm worried about cover at the back. Griffin is only back, nolan,mc mahon etc very inexprienced although talented. we've little or no cover there for injuries. we're covered well elsewhere, but we're in particular trouble in the full back line if we ship a few injuries.
Quote from: heffo on June 13, 2008, 09:51:28 AM
Keane seems to have the hex over Vaughan, so maybe he won't be as tight on whoever he picks up (Brogan?)
Keane is pretty likely to pick up A Brogan alright, but it may be Kieran Gavin. There's the potential for some really good duels between Westmeath backs/Dublin forwards. Keane/A Brogan, Gavin/Keaney, Healy or Ennis/B Brogan, Heavin/Sherlock, Boyle/Quinn.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 13, 2008, 10:13:15 AM
it is to a point stronger heffo, obviously connolly,andrews will be a hell of an impact sub along with vaughan, but i'm not sure he'll even be used by the current management. i'm worried about cover at the back. Griffin is only back, nolan,mc mahon etc very inexprienced although talented. we've little or no cover there for injuries. we're covered well elsewhere, but we're in particular trouble in the full back line if we ship a few injuries.
I agree, though if you asked us prior to the parnell handbags had we a stronger panel this year (before Brennan left), I think you'd have said 100% yes.
WRT Andrews - he was unlucky this year in not getting more game time - he did his hammer prior to one of the league games after being named and Murray stepped, then got suspended against Meath - though Pillar could have definitly used some of the fringe players more in the O'Byrne cup/league - madness bringing the likes of Alan Brogan on against Wicklow...
Quote from: heffo on June 13, 2008, 10:11:11 AM
DFS is as entitled to his opinion as the rest of us...how do you think it's going to go - prediction with your head, not your heart!
I don't recall saying DFS isn't entitled to his opinion. (Please don't find an incriminating post this time ;))
I think it is pretty likely to go the way that most Dubs here have predicted and as I've said previously Dublin are of course favourites. I think it's going to be tight enough but Dublin will be expected to pull through. (16th man advantages and all that as much as anything else ;D)
There is also the possibility (small enough as I think it is) that Dublin will win convincingly and then it's just a case of DFS, right - AN other and alot of Dub posters here, wrong.
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 12, 2008, 07:12:40 PM
Indiana - I agree 2-11 was a decent score but do you think they will score that against Dublin? While we won't get as much midfield dominance against Westmeath Paddy Keenan is a very good midfielder and the Louth full forward line is highly rated yet we still have Whelan/Brogan to enter the starting lineup and Flynn/Connolly onto the bench now so we will be far stronger also....We also scored 1-22 and missed a few goal chances and kicked some very bad wides so I can see us kicking a decent score...The teams who have beaten Dublin are the ones who attacked us and outscored us rather than the ones who try to defend and limit our scoring...
I really hope your name is Pillar Caffrey or Dave Billings... :D
Sorry but where did I say that Dublin will win easily or by a lot? I have honestly said that we should be confident about beating Westmeath as we are 3 time Leinster champions and have been to the last 2 All-Ireland semi-finals...If we are thinking that Westmeath are as good a team as Dublin then where do we rank ourselves in the 32 counties???
If you are missing Griffen, Shocko, McConnell, Whelan, Fennell, Brogan, Brogan, Connolly, Flynn then the strength in depth is impacted dramatically plus with Westmeath having a championship game far closer than we did it is obvious they would be further ahead in their preparation than Dublin...
The 3 teams that beat us in the championship in the last 3 years have beaten us by outscoring us (ie by attacking rather than trying to defend) and Westmeath don't play like that - They tried the defensive approach 2 years ago when we won very comfortably.
I predict Dublin will win - possibly 4/5 points and it won't be nearly as easy as against Louth even though most people thought that would be a tough match which would be relatively close...
Any update on Flan?
Haven't heard anything. Will eat my hat if he starts the next day, would be great to have him on the bench and if we were still in with a shout with 10 mins to go he'd be some option to spring...
Quote from: Iarmhí Abú on June 18, 2008, 03:17:41 PM
Any update on Flan?
Rumblings on the Westmeath messageboard of Hoganstand seem to indicate that he was doing some light training last night with the squad and that he only suffered some bruising... could be completely unreliable but it would be a great boost to have him fit.
A couple of weeks out of training at this time of the year would be tough especially when required to play centre field in Croke Park
i don't think he'll be selected at midfield, i think Duffy will start and flanagan will play up front. Whelan is going to start instead of Fennell DSFM , whelan hasn't played for 2 months and didn't really play before that so Flanagan won't be any worse off than whelan.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 19, 2008, 08:09:17 AM
Whelan is going to start instead of Fennell DSFM ,
Jesus I hope not.
Good luck to both you's next week with Paudi Hughes referee
Pathetic doesn't even come close!!
Is that Tyrone man Hughes???
Is this game on the telly?
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 19, 2008, 02:52:38 PM
Is this game on the telly?
On TV3, is the bandwagon not hitched yet??? :P
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 19, 2008, 03:26:02 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 19, 2008, 02:52:38 PM
Is this game on the telly?
On TV3, is the bandwagon not hitched yet??? :P
Dont worry Croí, this would be the third game between the two sides I've been at this year (missed the league final due to club commitments)
But the game is 3 days after the missus is due so want to cover all angles just in case!
Been working down in "The Gar" all week...They are all fierce confident of bating the Dubs next week
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on June 19, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
Been working down in "The Gar" all week...They are all fierce confident of bating the Dubs next week
I dont see why they wouldnt, its the most impressive Westmeath team I've seen in a few years.
Whether its good enough to beat the Dubs is to be decided on the field, I predict a close one either way.
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on June 19, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
Been working down in "The Gar" all week...They are all fierce confident of bating the Dubs next week
You must be trying to stir something or other with that statement... Either that or you're getting a bit of hopeful optimism mixed up with confidence!
Quote from: AN other on June 19, 2008, 04:53:21 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on June 19, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
Been working down in "The Gar" all week...They are all fierce confident of bating the Dubs next week
You must be trying to stir something or other with that statement... Either that or you're getting a bit of hopeful optimism mixed up with confidence!
Nah not trying to stir anything
We'll go with the mixing it up with hopeful optimism so...
Any Westmeath man/woman who is confident of beating the Dubs on Sunday week needs their head examined. A little bit of (very, very) quiet confidence might be understandable, but that's about it...
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on June 19, 2008, 04:46:38 PM
Been working down in "The Gar" all week...They are all fierce confident of bating the Dubs next week
:D :D :D and I've been working down in "The Port" all week and they think that Sam is in the bag... ;D
Quote from: INDIANA on June 19, 2008, 08:09:17 AM
i don't think he'll be selected at midfield, i think Duffy will start and flanagan will play up front. Whelan is going to start instead of Fennell DSFM , whelan hasn't played for 2 months and didn't really play before that so Flanagan won't be any worse off than whelan.
Indiana - I think the difference is that Whelan hasn't been injured with a knee injury which will have totally stopped him training which is hte big loss....
two poor team a mere culling exercise as kevin mc stay would put it, neither team will be around come the business end so its just another load of media hype covering two very poor teams, of both teams who would make the kerry panel- noone case closed
From Hoganstand
Quote
Martin Flanagan looks unlikely to start Westmeath's Leinster SFC semi-final against Dublin on Sunday week, despite resuming light training this week.
There was huge relief in the Lake County last week when an MRI scan showed that the Tyrrellspass midfielder hadn't torn his cruciate ligament after he was forced to retire early in the quarter-final win over Offaly with a knee injury. However, it's believed the injury is still causing him some discomfort and that he may not be risked from the start against Paul Caffrey's men.
David Duffy, who made a big impression following his introduction against the Faithful County, is in line to replace Flanagan. Duffy was Flanagan's regular midfield partner during the National League until he picked up an ankle injury against Monaghan in the final round.
A further change to the side could see Dermot Bannon replace Alan Mangan in attack. The Athlone youngster was man of the match in the NFL Division 2 final against Dublin, but was a late withdrawal against Longford in Westmeath's Leinster championship opener due to a stomach bug, and failed to regain his place for the Offaly game.
I wonder what the source for this is. It may not necessarily be a bad thing, Flanagan turned the game when he came on against Monaghan at half time in the league and I'm not sure he has the stamina to play the full 70 minutes of championship football. I'd start with Duffy in his place and as the article alludes to Bannon in Mangan's position for the next day. If things are not going our way Flanagan and Buddah could be sprung off the bench to replace any poor performers on the day.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 19, 2008, 08:09:17 AM
Whelan is going to start instead of Fennell DSFM
My information from a good source is that Whelan is not starting.
my info from my source says the opposite and there are a few other changes too . of course he could be wrong , just that he hasn't been yet. But i wouldn't drop Fennell under any circumstances but he's sayiing that Whelan will start.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 20, 2008, 12:27:26 PM
my info from my source says the opposite and there are a few other changes too . of course he could be wrong , just that he hasn't been yet. But i wouldn't drop Fennell under any circumstances but he's sayiing that Whelan will start.
You're not often wrong, but this is from a very good source who said it's 100%
Whether Moran starts in the forwards, the backs or the bench will have many follow-on implications. Any ideas on where he'll be lads?
Quote from: thehulk!! on June 20, 2008, 10:51:54 AM
two poor team a mere culling exercise as kevin mc stay would put it, neither team will be around come the business end so its just another load of media hype covering two very poor teams, of both teams who would make the kerry panel- noone case closed
I'll take this opportunity to point out Hulk is a Mayo man :D :D
looking like the backs hound at last, looks like the selectors may get that one right but its not definite yet.
Best team I think for the next day would be -
Cluxton
Henry McConnell Griffen/Shocko
Cahill Cullen Moran
Whelan Fennell
Ryan Sherlock Brogan
Brogan Keaney Quinn
With Ryan playing as a 3rd midfielder and Fennell staying as a defensive presence in front of Cullen
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 20, 2008, 08:04:50 PM
Cluxton
Henry McConnell Griffen/Shocko
Cahill Cullen Moran
Whelan Fennell
Ryan Sherlock Brogan
Brogan Keaney Quinn
With Ryan playing as a 3rd midfielder and Fennell staying as a defensive presence in front of Cullen
If Collie is pulled back to the backs then it'll be something like that alright. Personally I'd have Casey at 5, Cahill at 6, Ryan at 9 and Flynn at 10 (assuming Whelo is fit and in good form). Leave Fennell to make a big impact in the last 20/25.
I'd still have a slight preference for Vaughan over Quinn, but he's going have to prove it on the pitch before regaining his place.
won't happen DSFM, i can guarantee 100% that all 3 of ryan,whelan and fennell will not start. it will definitely be 2 from 3 . collie moving back is a good bet. the wing forward slot excluding bernard for andrews is difficult to call though but it won't be one of them.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 22, 2008, 08:39:11 PM
won't happen DSFM, i can guarantee 100% that all 3 of ryan,whelan and fennell will not start. it will definitely be 2 from 3 . collie moving back is a good bet. the wing forward slot excluding bernard for andrews is difficult to call though but it won't be one of them.
There has only been one game this year where Pillar has played 6 forwards in the forwards - vs Roscommon, and that was probably because Pillar thought the Rossies would be shíte.
The last spot will either be a half back (Moran or Cullen) or a midfielder (one of the 3 mentioned above or Flynn).
Based on his performance v Meath, I'd strongly favour Flynn.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 22, 2008, 08:39:11 PM
won't happen DSFM, i can guarantee 100% that all 3 of ryan,whelan and fennell will not start. it will definitely be 2 from 3 . collie moving back is a good bet. the wing forward slot excluding bernard for andrews is difficult to call though but it won't be one of them.
Indiana - Thats just my choice - My opinion is Fennell won't start
you may be wrong on that i'm afraid. there are going to be a few changes but at the moment if i was hedging my bets that isn't one of them.
Will be interesting to see what happens - Think Whelan needs to be played as we will need him later in the season...
The Championship needs an epic game - that usually involves the Dubs being pushed to the pin of their collar.
I know Westmeath have had a super year to date, and have already beaten the Dubs, but I just don't see them getting close in this one. The mass defence will not be as effective in the wide spaces of Croker and I anticipate a 5/6 point win for the boys in blue who with Derry now out of Ulster seem to be a very strong bet to be playing on the third Sunday in September.
think you'll find armagh and a few others (wexford/westmeath) will have a lot to say on that yet
Quotewith Derry now out of Ulster seem to be a very strong bet to be playing on the third Sunday in September.
Agree with indiana. Theres a hell of a lot of other challengers. With the qualifers the way it is at the minute, any team going through will have earned it , with ( most likely ) hard competitive, close games. I would go as far as to say , that come quarter final stages they may be better equiped than say a provisional winner eg. dublin, kerry and Galway who may have proceeded without getting out of thrid gear !
after last saturday night any fan who takes anyone for granted is an idiot in my view, yet most dublin fans i've spoken to think we've leisnter sewn up. dangerous way of thinking.
One thing for sure: The 4 provincial champions are all going to have tough quarter-finals.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 24, 2008, 10:00:22 AM
after last saturday night any fan who takes anyone for granted is an idiot in my view, yet most dublin fans i've spoken to think we've leisnter sewn up. dangerous way of thinking.
To be honest anyone who has watched Derry football at all in the last 5/6 years would have expected Fermanagh to win on Sat - Derry havean appalling record in the provincial championships and only really win games in teh backdoor.
my guess
cluxton
henry
mc connell
shocko
cahill
cullen
moran
fennell
ryan
b brogan
sherlock
flynn
a brogan
keaney
quinn
Quote from: heffo on June 20, 2008, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 20, 2008, 12:27:26 PM
my info from my source says the opposite and there are a few other changes too . of course he could be wrong , just that he hasn't been yet. But i wouldn't drop Fennell under any circumstances but he's sayiing that Whelan will start.
You're not often wrong, but this is from a very good source who said it's 100%
Team named - Whelan not starting, Moran back to HB ahead of Casey, B Brogan in for Andrews & Flynn into half forward.
Pretty good guess there Indiana ;)
Its the first time since he came into the team in 2002 that Casey has been dropped for a champo game, ive been saying it for the last few yrs that our strongest hb line was colie-cullen-cahill.
Im delighted that fennell has held onto his place ahead of whelo, if its not going right for him its not a bad sub to be able to bring on 8)
Good strong bench too with Griffin, Casey, Nolan, Whelan, Connolly, Vaughan, and Andrews all pushing to be first sub in!!!
Fennell must be going better than Whelan in training.
Good to see he's made a decision re dropping one of his half backs. Cullen's a lucky man to escape the chop after his non-performance the last day (and most of the last 12 months), but hopefully he can repay that with a good game.
Glad to see Flynn get his chance. I suppose with both Flynn and Ryan providing the engine around the middle it does provide the perfect environment for Fennell to be a catcher and giver.
whelan and connolly are flying in training, the B team actually beat the A team last saturday apparently i was told yesterday.
I wonder if Charlie hadn't have written that article would casey have been dropped!
Good enough team, though I still would be concerned about the defence, Cullen at CB especially, and O'Shaughnessy too.
Bit harsh on Andrews, thought he should have left him on longer the last day to blood him, and now he's dropped, can't be good for the confidence.
Think Whelan will get on fairly quickly - he's played hardly any games all year and needs game time.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 25, 2008, 09:36:11 AM
whelan and connolly are flying in training, the B team actually beat the A team last saturday apparently i was told yesterday.
The B team always beats the A team!
First time I can remember that Phlem Caffrey has put out his strongest available team, trust him to do it against us >:( we're right up against it, especially with the loss of Flan...
Quote
Westmeath marksman Denis Glennon has admitted that shooting into a Hill 16 packed with Dublin fans can be a daunting task.
'It can be intimidating enough,' the Tyrellspass clubman said. 'Any forward plays on confidence and when you get put down, like the way the Dubs' supporters do to any opposition forward, it can get in your head if you're not experienced enough.'
The 23-year-old believes that the mountain of supporters Dublin bring to Headquarters is a huge advantage to the 'locals'.
'To be honest I'd say it is worth about four or five points to them in every game,' Glennon added. (The Sun)
I'd say it's worth more!
Very strong Dublin team. I don't know if it's just nerves but I'm getting progressively more pessimistic about our chances in this game as Sunday approaches. Dublin could win it handy if they get off to a strong start. I think it may take the performance of every single Westmeath players' lives to get a result out of this. It would be quite demoralising to get stuffed after a decent year up to now.
wouldn't agree croi, this is your best ever chance mate, we could pick a stronger lineup. but you never get a better chance than sunday and beyond of landing another leinster championship. i'm pretty fearful on sunday, and i genuinely mean that.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 25, 2008, 12:35:21 PM
wouldn't agree croi, this is your best ever chance mate, we could pick a stronger lineup. but you never get a better chance than sunday and beyond of landing another leinster championship. i'm pretty fearful on sunday, and i genuinely mean that.
Fennell has been the find of the year for yous and by keeping him in MF Phlem has sent out a strong message that it's performances on the day that will keep your position, not your reputation. It would've been a catrostophy to put Whelo in there beside him as Shane Ryan is half the player in any other position.
It's taken Phlem 3 and a half years but he's finally dropped Casey, a liability if ever there was one, and replaced him with Moran, who should never have been in the forwards anyway. Flynn has some reputation in Dublin GAA circles and has looked the part anytime I've seen him, it'll take some effort to make sure he doesn't win the breaking ball.
Bernard Brogan along with Alan and Jayo will take some watching and it says something about the player when he can walk straight back in after suspension in only his second full season with the Dubs, personally I think he'll be better than the brother.
You said the same about never having a better chance to Louth, I didn't buy that then and I don't buy this now. This is a serious Dublin team with really strong options on the bench, the crowd and Hill are some chips to have in your corner. We're gonna have to get early ball into our ff line and get scores from every delivery. If Glennon and Budda (if he starts) play like they did the last day, we're fucked. Can't be letting the Dubs have half the shots the Biffos were let have either because they're gonna be a lot more efficient. Like AN Other said, it's gonna take the performance of every single Westmeath players' lives to get a result out of this, we live in hope...
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 25, 2008, 01:31:38 PM
the crowd and Hill are some chips to have in your corner....
They certainly are if the opposition believes so....
Quote from: Hound on June 25, 2008, 01:41:56 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 25, 2008, 01:31:38 PM
the crowd and Hill are some chips to have in your corner....
They certainly are if the opposition believes so....
I don't think there's an opposition team/supporters within the other 31 counties (or too many honest Dubs) that wouldn't agree with the fact that the crowd is a big factor for the Dubs in croker, so I think your point is a little irrelevant there Hound...
I suppose it's how you handle it though. Obviously it's a factor, because they are there, and they are loud. But does that become a negative, or a positive? The Dubs are so used to it at this stage that it's not a 'lift' any more for them, it's just standard practice.
For the opposition, you can either be intimidated out of your normal game by it, or else just decide to let it rise you as well, so you can shut them up.
I disagree Croi and this is why.
I think you seriously underestimate your team and the fact that your manager knows absolutely everything about each Dublin player through his involvement in Kilmacud Crokes over the past 15 years. There are no gamble selections on the Westmeath team. Half of them have won Leinster championships (beating Dublin) and are all experienced inter county footballers.
It is difficult to describe how bad Louth were. At least 5 club teams in Dublin would have beaten them quite easily.
Fennell has been a terrific find but this is a 75000 crowd on Sunday against a noted midfield pairing. Dublin's lynchpin midfielder is on the line. I believe personally its the correct call Croi, but its still a gamble. And he's under huge pressure because a lot of Dublin fans want Whelan in the team.
Flynn has been a very good find this season but again he didn't have the benefit of the Louth game. Its a good call but its a gamble. i hope it goes well for him because if it does he could be more effective than a defender in the half forward line. But its still a gamble. And he's also on ennis or healy who are arguably 2 of the best wing backs you'd find anywhere.
I suppose Connollly is the one i'm a tad disappointed about although I could be accused of bias. After the club season he's had i find it difficult to believe he's not one of our best 6 forwards remembering that he is the most natural forward in the county. Yeah he's a great option on the bench but i can't help feeling if he was in Kerry he's be starting. In other words i'd think he'd be more effective starting on the team.
Overall i'm happy enough but the confidence or (arrogance) of a lot of the Dublin fans is a bit unnerving and smacks of 2003/2004. As Mayo's pessimistic outlook showed last week sometimes its no harm to be approaching a game with a bit of fear.
I wouldn't agree that it's not a lift for the Dubs anymore AZ. I don't see how anybody, even professionals across the water, wouldn't get a lift from getting shouted on by 60,000 odd people.
If the crowd wasn't a big factor in encouraging a home team in any sport there would be little advantage to home games. (I know Croke Park isn't technically Dublin's home before somebody points that out!)
That said it is all about how an opposition handle it but if I were given the choice of performing in front of 60,000 fans supporting me or 60,000 fans cheering the opposition on (we won't go into the jeering!!) I know what I'd be choosing.
I agree about Connolly Indiana, I picked him last year as a young lad to watch for the '07 championship, but I definitely thought he'd be forcing his way in to Dublin teams now. He's the type of forward ye don't have a lot of. An unrushed style, with a lovely kicking motion. A lot of Dublin forwards, I feel, over the years have been manufactured, whereas Connolly, to me, seems to be a lot more natural.
As for Westmeath, they will be bringing something new to the party on Sunday, with this new cautious, counter-attacking gameplan, which they are getting better at. Offaly made a balls of it, as our 'tactic' for combating it, was to introduce it ourselves, which left 2 forwards and about 6 backs in both halves. Dublin won't do that, and are physical and strong enough to punch through the cover. Healy and Natchie are a lot more defensive minded, or seem to be, this year (at least against Offaly), but what you will see with Westmeath is almost rugby like when they force turnover ball. A line across the pitch, attacking in waves, until they can get the ball into Glennon or Dessie.
Quote from: AN other on June 25, 2008, 02:02:13 PM
I wouldn't agree that it's not a lift for the Dubs anymore AZ. I don't see how anybody, even professionals across the water, wouldn't get a lift from getting shouted on by 60,000 odd people.
If the crowd wasn't a big factor in encouraging a home team in any sport there would be little advantage to home games. (I know Croke Park isn't technically Dublin's home before somebody points that out!)
That said it is all about how an opposition handle it but if I were given the choice of performing in front of 60,000 fans supporting me or 60,000 fans cheering the opposition on (we won't go into the jeering!!) I know what I'd be choosing.
I'm not saying it's not a factor, if it wasn't there it would be missed, but I think they've become so used to it by now that it's more or less taken for granted. If Westmeath ran out on Sunday and there were 60,000 Maroon and White lads roaring, that would be a serious lift, because it's unusual. Dublin would be used to it, so it's effect has to wane a bit.
Of course, the inverse of that is that if you quieten them, it would have a negative impact on the Dubs, because then they'd know things were going against them, and a big quiet crowd becomes a negative.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=xNDEGm5z0qk
This is the way to quieten the hill ;)
I take your point to an extent, but only to the extent that the effect may not be as big on the team as it would be for Westmeath as you have explained. I still think it lifts the Dubs every single match.
The only way to quieten the crowd is to get on top in the game and effectively beat the crowd advantage!
We might just have to agree to disagree...
I think we're agreeing to agree, regarding the impact on the Dubs.
Regarding the impact on, for example, Westmeath, I think it's really a question of Westmeath's psychology. A lot of lads playing in a bias environment find it lifts them, as they are really up for 'shutting' the crowd up.
I suppose what I'm saying is that it'll give the Dubs a bit of a lift, but not as much as it would if they weren't already used to it, and it will either inspire or frighten Westmeath, and as Indiana says, they've experienced it before, so I'd imagine it'll inspire them.
Offaly froze twice against Dublin. Mayo were inspired. Kerry just were Kerry.
On the crowd issue, having 3/4's of the fans in your corner is certainly an advantage to any team, just ask Munster. However it can also go against you if the dayouters are silenced or giving out. The time to quieten them is about 10 mins from the end... Regarding Westmeath's psychology, well they've done well in the second halves in Clones, Cork, Parnell Park and Navan so hopefully they're mentally tough enough...
Quote from: INDIANA on June 25, 2008, 01:56:46 PM
I disagree Croi and this is why.
I think you seriously underestimate your team and the fact that your manager knows absolutely everything about each Dublin player through his involvement in Kilmacud Crokes over the past 15 years. There are no gamble selections on the Westmeath team. Half of them have won Leinster championships (beating Dublin) and are all experienced inter county footballers.
No underestimating here Indiana, I know exactly what we're capable of and have seen the good, the bad and the ugly this year. This team is teak tough and will fight to the bitter end, hopefully it's enough...
Quote from: INDIANA on June 25, 2008, 01:56:46 PM
Fennell has been a terrific find but this is a 75000 crowd on Sunday against a noted midfield pairing. Dublin's lynchpin midfielder is on the line. I believe personally its the correct call Croi, but its still a gamble. And he's under huge pressure because a lot of Dublin fans want Whelan in the team.
Like you said it's the correct call and every teamsheet is a gamble. Westmeaths lynchpin midfielder is "hopefully" on the line so we're starting behind the 8 ball.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 25, 2008, 01:56:46 PM
I suppose Connollly is the one i'm a tad disappointed about although I could be accused of bias. After the club season he's had i find it difficult to believe he's not one of our best 6 forwards remembering that he is the most natural forward in the county. Yeah he's a great option on the bench but i can't help feeling if he was in Kerry he's be starting. In other words i'd think he'd be more effective starting on the team.
You couldn't argue against him starting in the half forwards as Phlem has always had a dogsbody at 10 and Bernard Brogan is tried and trusted. Only option would be to push Bernard inside instead of Quinn but that'd be too big a gamble and you'd lose your freetaker. I couldn't think of a worse Dublin team to face...
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 25, 2008, 12:16:40 PM
First time I can remember that Phlem Caffrey has put out his strongest available team, trust him to do it against us >:( we're right up against it, especially with the loss of Flan...
'Phlem'?
to be honest lads call a spade a spade two very poor teams that wont have any bearing on anything in september
Quote from: heffo on June 25, 2008, 02:57:38 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 25, 2008, 12:16:40 PM
First time I can remember that Phlem Caffrey has put out his strongest available team, trust him to do it against us >:( we're right up against it, especially with the loss of Flan...
'Phlem'?
Anytime the camera pans around to him on the sideline he's coughing it up...
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 25, 2008, 03:55:00 PM
Quote from: heffo on June 25, 2008, 02:57:38 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on June 25, 2008, 12:16:40 PM
First time I can remember that Phlem Caffrey has put out his strongest available team, trust him to do it against us >:( we're right up against it, especially with the loss of Flan...
'Phlem'?
Anytime the camera pans around to him on the sideline he's coughing it up...
Indeed.
Quote from: thehulk!! on June 25, 2008, 03:42:14 PM
to be honest lads call a spade a spade two very poor teams that wont have any bearing on anything in september
And you in your expert opinion will?
Don't make him angry. You wouldn't like him when he's angry.
Well I think it is nearly the strongest team that we could have put out and only query I would have is Flynn in ahead of Whelan but thats a management decision...
Good to see talent like Griffen, Casey, Whelan, Magee, Connolly, Vaughan etc available to come off the bench if required is a great boost - admittedly pity Brennan no longer available this season.....
Indiana - Think you are being deliberately pessimistic about Dublin's chances to be honest and think Dublin have to be good favourites as we have more scoring options, stronger bench and overall a stronger team - when you go back to 2004 you seem to forget 2006 when we had a very easy win and in 04 we kicked ourselves out of that game (our own fault and they deserved to win)...
DSFM i simply don't share the blind optimism of other Dublin fans. You will get at the Dublin backs if you go about it the right way. Not one of the full back line is a natural in their position. Westmeath have the backs to hold the Dublin forwards but whether they have enough firepower will decide their chances on Sunday. Their forward line has to have a blinder and if I was O Flaharta that's what I'd be telling them, they have to have a fantastic game for Westmeath to win. If their forwards play well they can win. If they don't Dublin will pull away with 20 to go and win by 6-7 points.
Wexford have the forwards to really get at the full back line but i think the Dublin forwards will make shite of the Wexford defence and will score more IF Dublin progress past sunday.
Its beyond that IF we progress I cannot see Dublin landing the big one with the current defence inclusive of all 6 backs. Thats my opinion, its been our achilles heel and we more or less have the same personnel as last season
Also Dublin will win nothing without Diarmuid Connolly on the pitch thats my firm belief, he's shooting the lights out in training and i cannot believe he hasn't been selected especially on the back of the meath game and his form with St Vincents.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 25, 2008, 10:04:22 PM
Also Dublin will win nothing without Diarmuid Connolly on the pitch thats my firm belief, he's shooting the lights out in training and i cannot believe he hasn't been selected especially on the back of the meath game and his form with St Vincents.
Yeah, but who would you drop?
He's behind Quinn (and Vaughan) in free taking terms.
Flynn (or similar) is needed as an extra ball winner. Kerry have some fantastic footballers on the bench, but the best 6 footballers never get the six forward positions. Hence Paul Galvin always plays (when available!) despite there being far better footballers who could take his place, because Galvin brings other qualities.
And no way, at this stage, would I drop any of Keaney, Sherlock or the Brogans. As you know as well as anyone, Connolly on his day might be better than most or all of them, but he's not consistent enough. He has far more off days, as he proved in Vincents run to the All Ireland. There were a couple of games where he was anonymous.
Having said that he should play an important role in every game, and has a big contribution to make. This is not a 15 man game. As you say it unlikely Dublin will win anything without him on the pitch, but he will be on the pitch, just not as a starter. Unless one of the others has a dip in form or fitness, in which case he should be brought in to start - but its the right decision to have him as forward number 7. Its actually a good sign that a player such as Connolly can't get in - we're not there but we are getting closer to Kerry in terms of strength in depth (re forwards anyway) - now need to carry it through to performances!
As for our backs, I don't think we can do much better than we have, save Griffin coming back when fit. There was an obvious weakness in the centre of our defence v Louth, and I think Cahill would be the better man to fill it, but I can't blame Pillar for giving Cullen a chance to rectify matters.
Sorry Hound you're completely wrong on that, he had one off day, the leinster club final for Vincents. He was the differenence, in us winning the All-Ireland ie the player who gave us that little bit extra and i stand by stating that he'd be better appreciated in other counties. The all-ireland club semi and final he was outstanding. he was outstanding in the latter stages of the dublin championship as well.
In my team he'd be ahead of Sherlock and Sherlock would be the impact sub, but i'm obviously in the outright minority on that and thats fair enough everyone has their opinion, but you won't get the best out of diarmuid from the bench i'm afraid, i've never seen him effective in that role.
Galvin is amuch better footballer than he gets credit for, his scoring tallied show that , its a myth that he's just a ball-winner.
I don't think he could have done much different with the defence either, but it will be our undoing this year. I can't see us landing the big one with that defence, especially the last line.
Don't think Connolly has the head for intercounty championship. Unless he has matured since last year.
well he looked all right turning darren fay inside out recently. His head wasn't right last year for it but i thnk he'll be much different this year he's not even 21 yet, people tend to forget that.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 26, 2008, 09:30:55 AM
well he looked all right turning darren fay inside out recently. His head wasn't right last year for it but i thnk he'll be much different this year he's not even 21 yet, people tend to forget that.
Remains to be seen, but to be honest Indiana, Connolly will have to do his time on the bench and impress from there to get a starting place.
The argument that he isnt effective as a sub is pretty much tough, he is a good player or he isnt, dont make excuses. If he is as good as you say theres no reason he cant do it as a sub, unless Jinxy is right and he doesnt have the head for it.
Incidentally this is the first time in ages Ive seen the team selection and was pleasantly surprised by Pillar.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 26, 2008, 09:30:55 AM
well he looked all right turning darren fay inside out recently. His head wasn't right last year for it but i thnk he'll be much different this year he's not even 21 yet, people tend to forget that.
Go away out of that. Acres of space to run into with only 23 outfield players on the pitch instead of 28. Sure I'd give Darren the run around myself in that case. I must say, quite a few Dublin fans seemed to place a great deal of stock in that win. Thought the whole thing was a waste of time myself after all the red cards. If we'd won I certainly wouldn't have been getting excited about it.
Quote from: Jinxy on June 26, 2008, 11:20:05 AM
Go away out of that. Acres of space to run into with only 23 outfield players on the pitch instead of 28. Sure I'd give Darren the run around myself in that case. I must say, quite a few Dublin fans seemed to place a great deal of stock in that win. Thought the whole thing was a waste of time myself after all the red cards. If we'd won I certainly wouldn't have been getting excited about it.
Jeez, there were three lads in front of me getting quare excited when yis got back into the game....
Whatever about space, Connolly getting the better of Fay had nothing to do with pace. If it was a game in Croke Park and 15v15, I don't think Connolly would have any less space to work in. In saying that there
is a huge difference between championship and league and I don't think many Meath supporters would be worried if we met in the QF and Connolly was picked at 14. But equally Dublin fans would be hopeful.
I don't think we put a "great deal of stock" in that win. There were a few individual performances which pleased, and also the way the team responded to the Meath comeback to nick the win in the end was a great relief. Despite being a league game, the way the game went, it would have been a real gut wrencher to lose it, and could have negatively impact on the whole season.
Indiana, I think you answered your own question regarding Connolly. He is only 21. He's still learning. I think its silly to say that Diarmuid isnt appreciated. He'll have a big part to play this year, and in future years. There is no good reason why he can't learn to be an impact sub for a while, before finally taking over from Jason or whoever. When Sherlock doesnt play, we lack a conductor in the forwards, plus he's been kicking points recently better than he ever has.
Indiana - Not blind optimisim on the Dublin fans to think we can/should beat Westmeath.....I don't buy into this idea that the Westmeath backs can mark our forwards out of it, there system of having their 2 half forwards back in defence to block space will help with that but it then reduces their chances of getting at our backs.....The only teams that have beaten us are the teams that have on and outscored us in a fairly high scoring game and I cant see Westmeath trying that..
I disagree DFS1, I think Westmeath will be trying to outscore Dublin...
Westmeath team as per Offaly apart from Flanagan being replaced by Duffy and Buddah being replaced by Bannon. No great surprises there.
I'm not sure about Bannon at all, he's young and inexperienced and not the type of game you want to be introducing a new championship starter but at the same time if I had a say in the team selection I'd probably give him his chance ahead of Buddah. Buddah may make a bit of an impact off the bench. If Bannon can perform like he did in the league final I'd be a little surprised, pleasantly so obviously. Hopefully Flanagan is fit enough to give us 20 minutes or more, it'd be a great lift to be able to bring him on at some stage. Duffy was an automatic selection.
I also wonder how David Glennon is getting on in training, it would be an ideal game for him to come off the bench and deliver on some of the potential that he was promising a few years ago. Stranger things have happened I suppose...
I think we're very much depending on good performances and scoring from all three of Dessie, Denis and Wilson however. If Dessie and Wilson bring their form from the Offaly game into this one and Denis improves considerably we could have enough scoring wise. Dessie in particular could have a massive game in him, he's almost due one and he showed more than sparks of his best form against Offaly. Dessie on form could drag Westmeath over the line.
Another positive (clutching at straws) from a Westmeath point of view would be the similarities to '04. Playing Dublin in the semi's having beat Offaly in the previous round. Dublin strong favourites with AI ambitions (then again when have they not had AI ambitions, they're an ambitious bunch!). A Westmeath victory would possibly finish Caffrey as per Lyon's in '04. Westmeath missing an influential midfielder. It's in the cards...
It could be a cracker anyway, let's hope so, with a one point win for Westmeath.
Iarmhí abú.
I think Westmeath's gameplan will be to try and stop Dublin from getting their tails up, and jumping into a 5 or 6 point lead at any stage in the first or early second half. They will play at least 7 defenders, and another couple of auxiliary midfielders in an attempt to keep it low scoring, and to frustrate the Dubs.
I'm not sure if it will work, but I think that will be their plan, and when they win ball, let Glennon, Dessie and Bannon take advantage of 1 on 1s. I'd not be surprised to see Bannon in the inside line, at least for a while, and Dessie roaming out around the 40. Bannnon is young, and raw. The physical nature of the Dublin half backs might trouble him, so I can see him being left inside.
I actually think it's a hard one to call. It's like one of those games where if Dublin get a run on, they might win pulling up, by 6 or 7 points. Alternatively, if Westmeath can keep within 2 or 3 points, or lead, and Dublin start to get frustrated, then Westmeath can win it. I don't think they'll be easy for the Dubs to break down.
The Croker factor might be significant. Not for the crowd noise, or the 'home' venue per se., but I think the big open spaces of Croke Park mitigates against the gameplan Westmeath will be trying to play (in my opinion). They'll still be organised and stubborn, but there should be more room for the Dubs to play around them, if they keep their heads. If this game was in Portlaoise, or Mullingar, or Newbridge, I'd seriously fancy Westmeath to tie them up in knots for long periods.
I don't think there's any doubt AZ that Westmeath will set up like that, I'd be very surprised not to see Dessie on the 40.
Out of interest, does anybody know the actual pitch dimension for Croker, say compared to Mullingar/Tullamore/Portlaoise?
I certainly don't know the dimensions off hand, but I'd be very surprised if Mullingar or Tullamore were as big as Croker. Portlaoise might be a bit bigger, but I think Croker is the biggest pitch in the country.
its the width not he length. there are club pitches in dublin the same size as croker funnily enough.
the mood in dublin is that this will be handy enough. or at best westmeath will put it up to dublin for a while and fall away. Its not an opinion i share and the over-confidence from the support going into sunday is something that concerns me, because it smacks of 04.
According to Wikipedia the dimensions for Croker are 144.5m x 88m. Would be interesting to compare to other county grounds. The big wide open spaces of Croker are frequently talked about but I would be interested to know how much bigger than other county grounds they are in fact. Mullingar always seems very tight.
The stands and shape of stands could possibly make the pitch look bigger than it is as well, especially looking down on the pitch from the stands.
To be honest, I just don't accept anything that suggests we won't beat the Dubs! ;)
I'm pretty sure the pitch at home was measured as being as big as croker before, Westmeath should have been training there the last few weeks!
Quote from: AN other on June 27, 2008, 09:40:28 AM
I disagree DFS1, I think Westmeath will be trying to outscore Dublin...
Hopefully Flanagan is fit enough to give us 20 minutes or more, it'd be a great lift to be able to bring him on at some stage.
Westmeath played a 20 minute training match last night and he played the whole lot and came through ok - expect to see him at some stage on Sunday.
No doubt Westmeath will setup as described, Croker is indeed the biggest pitch in the country, so it's really about how long W/Meath can maintain that system into the second half.
I don't agree with the '04 comparisons and the Dubs, it was a very unhappy camp under Lyons by '04 (not taking away from Westmeath's win on the day - they were worthy winners)
Quote from: INDIANA on June 27, 2008, 10:08:11 AM
the mood in dublin is that this will be handy enough. or at best westmeath will put it up to dublin for a while and fall away. Its not an opinion i share and the over-confidence from the support going into sunday is something that concerns me, because it smacks of 04.
Call it so Indiana, how do you think it's going to go?
I think Dublin will be in for a right game and it's going to be very tight for first half and some of the second - as I see it, they have v good backs/man markers, two top class forwards in Dolan & Glennon, but an unproven midfield at championship level (though we can say the same ourselves about Fennell), I think Westmeath would have to play at the top of their game and Dublin to play very poorly for a Westmeath win, Dublin to edge it but about 3.
If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to congratulate Westmeath.
i think if it goes to form we'll win by about 3-4 points. if westmeath don't turn up up front, then dublin could win by a margin. if Dublin don't turn up then we'll lose, i don't see dublin winning if they underperform, which they would get away with against some other counties in Leinster. but i can't get over fans talking about all-irelands at this stage, thats the mistake derry made and look where they are now.
Quote from: AN other on June 27, 2008, 10:11:05 AM
According to Wikipedia the dimensions for Croker are 114.5m x 88m.
is it just me or is it a f**king joke that not all senior GAA pitches are the same size. Surely there should be a specific regulation size for pitches. and not a range of 130-145 metres and 80-90 metres.
I suppose the size of land physically available to them is a factor, especially in the older grounds. Maybe when the new ground developments are being done, it should be a stipulation. I know that O'Connor park has removed the old concrete bench seats behind the town end to make about 5 metres more length in the pitch.
Quote from: thejuice on June 27, 2008, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: AN other on June 27, 2008, 10:11:05 AM
According to Wikipedia the dimensions for Croker are 114.5m x 88m.
is it just me or is it a f**king joke that not all senior GAA pitches are the same size. Surely there should be a specific regulation size for pitches. and not a range of 130-145 metres and 80-90 metres.
slip of the finger there, should be 144.5m x 88m....
Is there any field sport that doesn't have varying pitch sizes? I'm pretty sure soccer pitch sizes vary anyway.
Rugby and American Football are two with very set dimensions, I think, although even at that the 'in goal' area for Rugby can vary within certain limits. However the actual 'in bounds' area is set I think, but I suppose it has to be for fairness, as one of the skills of rugby is kicking into touch, so you'd like to practice and play on the same size pitches all the time.
Actually, just checked there, and it appears that even rugby is slightly flexible. The 10 metre line must, obviously, be 10 metres from the halfway line, the 22 must be 22 out from the goal line, but the overall length is slightly flexible in that it must 'not exceed' 100 metres. The in goal is then from 10 to 22 metres in depth.
As regards Width, the only stipulation is 'Not more than 70 metres'.
American Football is the only one I can think of so. And yardage means everything in that game. I think it's 100 yards long, 50 yards wide and Endzones of 10 yards deep as well.
Quote from: AN other on June 27, 2008, 11:12:02 AM
Quote from: thejuice on June 27, 2008, 11:02:51 AM
Quote from: AN other on June 27, 2008, 10:11:05 AM
According to Wikipedia the dimensions for Croker are 114.5m x 88m.
is it just me or is it a f**king joke that not all senior GAA pitches are the same size. Surely there should be a specific regulation size for pitches. and not a range of 130-145 metres and 80-90 metres.
slip of the finger there, should be 144.5m x 88m....
Is there any field sport that doesn't have varying pitch sizes? I'm pretty sure soccer pitch sizes vary anyway.
Not sure about other sports, but soccer definitly has varying pitch sizes - the Old Dell, Goodison & Highbury are three that spring to mind as being very narrow. If I remember correctly, Everton actually had their pitch narrowed before a game against Man U a few years ago as they didn't play with wingers and thought a narrower pitch would give them an advantage..
Soccer pitches definitely do. One of the perceived benefits of Arsenal moving to the Emirates was the bigger pitch, which suits their passing game more than the narrow and cramped confines of Highbury. A soccer pitch just has to fall within legal limits in both width and length.
O'Flaherta should send a posse up on Saturday night under nightfall to mark the pitch out in Croker and move the goal posts!
Something like the 'hurling cubed' cage would be ideal for ye :D
Gary Connaughton,
Francis Boyle, Kieran Gavin, John Keane
Michael Ennis, Derek Heavin, Damien Healy
Donal O'Donoghue, David Duffy
Fergal Wilson, John Smyth, Doran Harte
Dessie Dolan, Denis Glennon, Dermot Bannon
Kinda surprised at Bannon coming in for Budda. Budda always plays better after a kick up the arse and after his performance in the Offaly game he should've been getting at least one at every training session. Maybe he'll be motivated coming in off the bench. Flan is some super sub to have as well, should negate any Whelo impact factor and can even see him being sent inside if O'Donoghue and Duffy are holding the middle.
At the back the three to watch out for IMO are the two Brogans and Jayo. Alan scored 1-7 against Louth, enough said, Bernard will be coming from deep, twisting and turning, well able to score from the 40 and Jayo is the conductor. If we can keep these 3 quiet we have a right chance. Saw Healy on tv3 last night. He said that "We only played for 10 mins against Offaly and 20 against Longford and that we have it all to do". He knows the magnitude of the situation of the situation facing us and I hope the rest of the panel have the same steely determination...
An Iarmhí Abú
i stand corrected then
Quote from: INDIANA on June 27, 2008, 10:53:37 AM
but i can't get over fans talking about all-irelands at this stage, thats the mistake derry made and look where they are now.
Indiana, all I will say is that you must be quite young. Every single year theres Dublin fans talking about all Irelands at this stage of the year, thats Dublin for you.
You shouldnt be worried about what fans or the media are saying, cocky fans wont make the team lose. The main thing is that the team concentrates on this match and this match only.
Then if we beat Westmeath by a large margin you can get back to saying how Wexford worry you and how they will never have a better chance to beat Dublin ;)
I was genuinely worried before the Louth game, I obviously overestimated them. Westmeath are a better team that Louth, but having seen Pillars team selection I am confident of a win by 5-7 pts. I could of course be wrong as I was with my prediction of a tight game last time round.
Its the first time in a long time I have seen the team selection and thought "well done Pillar".
his holiness nb - Why do you say you obviously over estimated Louth then? Could it not possibly be that we are maybe better than you thought not that they were far worse?
AN Other - Yes Westemeath will be trying to outscore us but by trying to keep the scoring to a minimum rather than attacking us fully
wexford don't worry me holiness if we progress they really don't. their backs will never hold our forwards, regardless of how much damage their forwards do on ours dublin would score more. but that's irrelevent at this stage, the only game is sunday.
and i wish i was young holiness, i wish i was.
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 27, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
his holiness nb - Why do you say you obviously over estimated Louth then? Could it not possibly be that we are maybe better than you thought not that they were far worse?
AN Other - Yes Westemeath will be trying to outscore us but by trying to keep the scoring to a minimum rather than attacking us fully
Ah in fairness DFS, Louth were very very poor against us.
If we play against Westmeath like we played in the first half against Louth, and W/Meath play to their potential, there will be a few red-faced Dubs here Monday morning (me included!)
You can see Healys interview here
http://gaa.tv3.ie/video.php (http://gaa.tv3.ie/video.php)
What the f**k are they talking about in that painting??? :D
That's class with Healy :D Prententious fecker :D It's far from fine art he was raised. although to be fair he's prbably trying to figure out if the painting is hung the right way around :D
Far from fine art indeed :D Seems very focussed on the match, back in the day he just used to turn up and play, hell of a basketball player too...
According to the metro, Flan has the no. 28 shirt. That's another bugbear of mine with the GAA, u never bloody know who's on the bench till u get the programme. That website of theirs is a joke...
Quote from: heffo on June 27, 2008, 12:12:34 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 27, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
his holiness nb - Why do you say you obviously over estimated Louth then? Could it not possibly be that we are maybe better than you thought not that they were far worse?
AN Other - Yes Westemeath will be trying to outscore us but by trying to keep the scoring to a minimum rather than attacking us fully
Ah in fairness DFS, Louth were very very poor against us.
If we play against Westmeath like we played in the first half against Louth, and W/Meath play to their potential, there will be a few red-faced Dubs here Monday morning (me included!)
Louth were poor I think primarily because we made them poor.......If W/Meath play like they did against Offaly/Longford then we will win comfortably.....
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 27, 2008, 04:37:53 PM
Quote from: heffo on June 27, 2008, 12:12:34 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 27, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
his holiness nb - Why do you say you obviously over estimated Louth then? Could it not possibly be that we are maybe better than you thought not that they were far worse?
AN Other - Yes Westemeath will be trying to outscore us but by trying to keep the scoring to a minimum rather than attacking us fully
Ah in fairness DFS, Louth were very very poor against us.
If we play against Westmeath like we played in the first half against Louth, and W/Meath play to their potential, there will be a few red-faced Dubs here Monday morning (me included!)
Louth were poor I think primarily because we made them poor.......If W/Meath play like they did against Offaly/Longford then we will win comfortably.....
You were bound to get something right eventually... :D
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 27, 2008, 04:37:53 PM
Quote from: heffo on June 27, 2008, 12:12:34 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 27, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
his holiness nb - Why do you say you obviously over estimated Louth then? Could it not possibly be that we are maybe better than you thought not that they were far worse?
AN Other - Yes Westemeath will be trying to outscore us but by trying to keep the scoring to a minimum rather than attacking us fully
Ah in fairness DFS, Louth were very very poor against us.
If we play against Westmeath like we played in the first half against Louth, and W/Meath play to their potential, there will be a few red-faced Dubs here Monday morning (me included!)
Louth were poor I think primarily because we made them poor.......If W/Meath play like they did against Offaly/Longford then we will win comfortably.....
I don't agree DFS - Louth threw in the towel and the second half was shooting fish in a barrel. Westmeath backs won't be anywhere near as generous on Sunday. I still think we'll win it in the last quarter though.
I hear the bookies have the Dubs at 2-9 and 1-5 with WH 9-2. These are overwhelming odds. A lot depends on how Donal and Duffy fare until Flan arrives. We need to keep a close eye on Ryan as he runs out wide for Cluxton's pinpoint kickouts. We were cleaned out in midfield two years ago and as a result got a spanking. Breaking ball will be crucial. Denis also needs to keep a cool head when his inevitable goal chance arrives. If he tries to blast Cluxton into the net we'll have no joy. Place it Denis!! I'm hoping the half backs will be as tight as ever. Jayo cannot be allowed any space to pull the strings either. It's vital not to let the Dubs get daylight as they drive on with the crowd behind them. The longer we keep the crowd edgy the better. Most of the Dub fans that I meet are very confident. Some have made comments to the tune that if they cannot overcome us without too much fuss they have no business meeting the likes of Kerry. That may well be true but I'm hoping that there will be mass anxiety with ten minutes to go.
To be honest while expecting Dublin to win I am hoping for a really tough match, ideally with Westmeath getting a 4/5 point lead and Dublin having to fight back....
I want to see the Dublin fullback line and Cullen/Fennell have good games to give confidence going forward.....I also want to see Vaughan/Connolly/Whelan/Griffen come on and prove themselves as serious contenders for starting positions....
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 28, 2008, 05:13:40 AM
To be honest while expecting Dublin to win I am hoping for a really tough match, ideally with Westmeath getting a 4/5 point lead and Dublin having to fight back....
I want to see the Dublin fullback line and Cullen/Fennell have good games to give confidence going forward.....I also want to see Vaughan/Connolly/Whelan/Griffen come on and prove themselves as serious contenders for starting positions....
That would be ideal!
Be careful what ye wish for lads. I know ye are obviously adding 'and Dublin fight back to win', but if Westmeath get 4-5 points up on ye at any sort of middling-late stage of the game, Dublin will be in trouble. Westmeath won't give up scores handy if they get in that sort of position. Dublin's best hope of getting a good score is to start well and be 5 or 6 points up coming up to or just after half time. Westmeath will have to chase the game a bit then, and they might open up a small bit.
I wouldn't be relying on reeling them in if they have a decent lead though. That's exactly what they are set up for.
QuoteI hear the bookies have the Dubs at 2-9 and 1-5 with WH 9-2. These are overwhelming odds.
Seen those odds last night on that TV3 show and thought they were absolutely crazy. I'd tip Dublin to win but to quote a team at 1/5 when they were beaten by the opposition in a reasonably big game a couple of months ago is crazy. Westmeath -5 at 10/11 (I think) seems like great value and worth a punt.
Our experience against Westmeath was that there are a very difficult team to play against, although our style probably suited their tactics on the day. As AZ pointed out, if Westmeath get ahead by a few points they'll make it very difficult for Dublin.
Tacadoir - The Dublin team a couple of months ago was missing McConnell, Shocko, Griffen, Whelan, Fennell, Brogan, Brogan, Quinn, Flynn, Connolly etc and were still only 2 points down with 2 mins to go....
Quote from: INDIANA on June 27, 2008, 12:05:36 PM
and i wish i was young holiness, i wish i was.
:D
Start delayed by the customary 15 minutes, due to feverish hordes of drunken Dubs ;)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 29, 2008, 02:09:40 PM
Start delayed by the customary 15 minutes, due to feverish hordes of drunken Dubs ;)
The sooner the GAA draw a line under this, the better. All it will take is for the Dubs to miss half a match. They'll be on time the next day.
why only one minute of injury time. I would have thought closed to five with Ryan, Dolan, westmeath corner forward. only half time not a big deal, however
in my mind another decision that should not be ref's.
Mike Finnerty (commentator) has mention o shaughnessey more than once . Have Dublin bought on two forwards.
Decent game.
Dublin can thank the ref for most of their first half scores - a series of ridiculously soft close-in frees. It's outrageous that most referees at this level don't know the rules. This is at least the third game when players have been penalised for handling on the ground because refs don't know you're allowed to play the ball away with your hand when you fall or are knocked down in possession. Sometimes amateurism has its drawbacks. Is there any professional sport where the top referees don't know the rules? Then he announces two minutes extra and plays 1:14.
Level at half time. "It's far from over", says Joe. ::)
Entertaining game, though.
Soft frees and svery harsh yellow cards were given at both ends. No way did Dublin get more.
The ref awarded one minute injury time at the end of both halves. Why, I don't know (no injuries, but plenty of stoppages), but two was never signalled.
Dublin were bad, but thankfully Westmeath were worse. They must be quare sick to have the dubs play that bad, and them play even worse.
I suppose you could say that both defences played well. The messy game Westmeath play suited Cullen, if nobody else, and he had his best game in a long while. Henry was my Dublin man of the match, but in general the defence and midfield did reasonable and the forwards were poor.
Wexford must feel positive.
Yes, Wexford will be optimistic about this one I'd say. Westmeath had Dublin for the taking, but couldn't deliver, Dessie had an off day with his frees in the second half, for one.
Dessie was shocking, even apart from the frees, got plenty of ball and did nothing with it. Thoguh almost every forward on the pitch was shocking. Glennon was the best I thought, but to me it looked like his first thought when in possession was "I want to draw a free" rather than "I want to get/make a score".
Love the 2pm throw-ins. Get the game in, a few pints with the lads, then home by 7pm to see the kids before bed and get a few posts in so I don't have to waste an hour in work on Monday morning ;D
dessie got 5 points, including the 2 best points from play in the whole game, granted he missed a couple of frees but he roasted a succession of dublin defenders. Must have been a lot of pints.
Observations from a neutral:
- Glennon was absolutely superb for the first 15-20 minutes - 6 balls in a row with something coming off each one (why did it take Dublin so long to move McConnell. They moved him after which he was doing grand and then took him off at half time).
- Henry was excellent on Glennon from thereafter but John Keane was even better on Brogan. Not often you watch a match and your 2 main candidates for MotM were corner backs.
- Westmeaths half forward line was too poor - John Smyth was ineffective while Doran Harte, although playing his role very well, was obviously not a half forward.
- Did Mark Vaughan actually contribute anything during the second half.
- Has Jason Sherlock ever played a game with such little time on the ball ?
- With Martin Flanagan back on board as perhaps an orthodox centre forward and given the way he can take a game by the scruff of the neck (which Westmeath so badly missed today), then Westmeath can re-group and be a very difficult team to beat, albeit i have serious doubts about the real mental strength of Dennis Glennon and Des Dolan after todays game.
- Is this not the perfect campaign so far from Dublin ? they know they have bucketfuls of improving to do but yet are still where they want to be after 2 games. Remember, they are unlikely to come up against a better defensive unit for the rest of the year compared to what they came up against today.
Hound, my comments were made at half time. Nearly all Dubln's close-in frees were soft and some more than that, in the first half. It evened out in the second half with the swampmen getting more soft ones.
It was made clear today hat if you mark Alan Brogan out of the game you have a very good chance of beating Dublin.
Dont mean to start something negative, however, I could not but notice the trash talking close to end of the game when westmeath got a free in from about 21 meters out. Collie Moran the main perpertrator this go round, got right in the face of the westmeath freetaker,and he in my mind the worst Dublin player on the time by a longshot, a player incidently that management seem to be bending over backwards to facilitate. Keep your ffnn mouth shut and get on with the game. Jesus as much as I would like to see Dublin win something , that sort of shit talk bothers the hell out of me. Could you ever in your wildest drunkeness envision Tomas Or Dara O Shea doing something like that.
Maybe, that is one of the reasons they are successful and Collie Moran and Co. are not. Just as a sidebar what do some of these mouthpieces work at, do they have to deal with the general public, or are they locked in an office all day.
Apologies for going on too long. Rant over.
Yes, I hate that too. Though I'm pretty sure you picked out the wrong Dublin half back as the perpetrator. For what its worth, you could not meet a nicer guy off the field than Collie Moran.
The Kerry lads are well able for the thrash talk, including the O'Se's. But the Dubs lads who do it are too thick to do it subtlely.
he has picked out the wrong player, but observation wouldn't be joe's strong point. amazing you watch a match and thats all he has to say............
I'm still gutted after this. It's even worse this morning. This was a game that was there for the taking and as a result the opportunity to have a punt at another Delaney slips away. Fair play to the Dubs however, they stuck at it and raised their game at the end to edge home.
John Keane was immense. The whole backline was superb and gave the Dublin forwards plenty of trouble. Connolly impressed me from the Dublin perspective and looks to be a great prospect.
I think that the Dubs will benefit greatly from this encounter. They learned a lot about defensive frailties and this match was worth ten games like the Louth one.
Was pleased for Denis as this was his best showing for some time and was needed. Dessie was excellent before some late wides blotted his performance. Flan was a massive loss and didn't get to the pace of the game when he arrived.
It's a strange thing to say but the qualifiers don't have the same appeal this time. Maybe I'll feel different when we head to Tipp but we've been down that route before and while we have benefitted more than most from the back door, it's the Leinster title that is the holy grail for our lads.
The referee yesterday was very poor, he is from Armagh and pulled for everything, nearly ruined the game, dublin got a few very soft frees in the 1st half and likewise WestMeath in the 2nd, very poor performnace from him.
The westmeath No.4 Keane was ver impressive, stuck with Alan B all day and was very tenacious
Quote from: Iarmhí Abú on June 30, 2008, 09:38:21 AM
I'm still gutted after this. It's even worse this morning. This was a game that was there for the taking and as a result the opportunity to have a punt at another Delaney slips away. Fair play to the Dubs however, they stuck at it and raised their game at the end to edge home.
John Keane was immense. The whole backline was superb and gave the Dublin forwards plenty of trouble. Connolly impressed me from the Dublin perspective and looks to be a great prospect.
I think that the Dubs will benefit greatly from this encounter. They learned a lot about defensive frailties and this match was worth ten games like the Louth one.
Was pleased for Denis as this was his best showing for some time and was needed. Dessie was excellent before some late wides blotted his performance. Flan was a massive loss and didn't get to the pace of the game when he arrived.
It's a strange thing to say but the qualifiers don't have the same appeal this time. Maybe I'll feel different when we head to Tipp but we've been down that route before and while we have benefitted more than most from the back door, it's the Leinster title that is the holy grail for our lads.
Dublin can count themselves very lucky and Westmeath should rightly feel like they let it slip away.
The game progressed as I thought it would, very tight and low scoring, I didn't plan for such a poor Dublin performance though.
Westmeath backs were excellent for the most part, especially Keane.
Fennell looked out on his feet after about twenty minutes and I'd imagine Whelan will start for him the next day. Full back still a problem for Dublin.
Why did Glennon pop the last free over the bar? I would've thought Flanagan or someone would've had a pop at goal given the time...
rather than go through a blow by blow account. Dublin will in all likelihood probably win the Leinster Championship and not win the big one like previous seasons. we just have too many issues this season unfortunately. If Dublin had John Keane and Gavin , we'd have a great a chance.
Armagh were pretty unimpressive yesterday as well, its Kerry's to lose, this could the softest all-ireland they'll pick up in a long time. It was an incredibly subdued atmosphere at the game and Westmeath players will still be breaking out in cold sweats in 10 years time, wondering how they let it slip.
This Westmeath team are very strong especially in the backs and if they keep their heads up, can go a long way in the qualifiers,
Quote from: INDIANA on June 30, 2008, 10:00:45 AM
. If Dublin had John Keane and Gavin , we'd have a great a chance.
If Dublin had them Pillar would either drop them or play them out of position.
It seems that they have spent far too much time doing fitness and conditioning and not enough time training with the ball. I don't mind playing badly and winnig, but there were too many basic and fundamental errors in the Dublin play. Also a number of players are there on reputation, not form. Guys like Collie Moran and Jayo.
Very subdued atmosphere as well.
Quote from: dublinfella on June 30, 2008, 12:27:35 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on June 30, 2008, 10:00:45 AM
. If Dublin had John Keane and Gavin , we'd have a great a chance.
If Dublin had them Pillar would either drop them or play them out of position.
It seems that they have spent far too much time doing fitness and conditioning and not enough time training with the ball. I don't mind playing badly and winnig, but there were too many basic and fundamental errors in the Dublin play. Also a number of players are there on reputation, not form. Guys like Collie Moran and Jayo.
Very subdued atmosphere as well.
Are you having a laugh about Jayo? There on reputation? Have you been watching Dublin's game since January?
He was poor enough yesterday, but to suggest that he hasn't earned his place is a joke..
Take Jayo out of that team and Dublin are banjoed.
According to the Irish Times, Westmeath were using a Space Optimising System, ooooooooooohh! very high tech indeed :P
Imo a very good result for us.
Imagine such a result against Meath,Armagh,Monaghan,........teams recently beaten by Westmeath........ there would be delight amongst us. Semi Finals are there to be won ......period.
Very important to win to avoid the early pitfalls of the qua;ifiers.
A tight match against a hugely underrated (outside Leinster anyway) team with everyone writing us off is imo a good result for Dublin.
Bigger tests lie ahead.
Have a gut feeling that if we win Leinster that it will be all Ulster ahead of us .....Fermanagh, Armagh or Derry provided of course that we are good enough to win the games ahead of us. Just a hunch.
Quote from: heffo on June 30, 2008, 09:51:58 AM
Why did Glennon pop the last free over the bar? I would've thought Flanagan or someone would've had a pop at goal given the time...
I was dumbfounded by that decision.
Good game for Dublin to have under their belt, showed some grit in the last 15 mins.
I can understand Westmeath fans being totally deflated by almost nonchalantly throwing away the chances for points.
Quote from: Jinxy on June 30, 2008, 01:01:35 PM
Take Jayo out of that team and Dublin are banjoed.
I thought Jayo did ok yesterday, he was one of dublins better players IMO. You have to be at the game to appriecate what he does, i watched him make his runs when dublin gathered the ball in their own half, the movment off the ball from Jayo was unreal, he had the westmeath no.6 all over the place. The hand pass to barry cahill was top class, the vision and execution was brilliant. I cant understand why he gets so much stick.
I've always been amazed at the polarity of opinion over Jayo. I think he's a vital part of the Dublin forward unit and they invaribly play poorer if he's absent. He's very unselfish and extremely intelligent, both on and off the ball. He has come in and out of fashion but if Dublin are to achieve anything close to their stated aims then Jayo will be an integral part of it.
Quote from: thejuice on June 30, 2008, 01:06:45 PM
According to the Irish Times, Westmeath were using a Space Optimising System
It's called Denis Glennon.
Sherlock is twice the player he was when he was younger.
Speaking of Denis Glennon and unfathomable decisions - why was he put out around midfield for most of the second half when for the first half he was threatening to dismantle the Dublin defence single-handedly by winning everything that came in and using it excellently? Did some form of madness afflict the Westmeath sideline or was Denis just doing his own thing (which, if allowed, is also a failure of management)?
because henry did a good job on him in the 2nd half, and they couldn't get any ball into him. they should have introduced david glennon earlier to give them some pace.
Quote from: INDIANA on June 30, 2008, 03:25:26 PM
because henry did a good job on him in the 2nd half, and they couldn't get any ball into him. they should have introduced david glennon earlier to give them some pace.
glennon seemed to swap with dessie i reckon because dessie was running out of steam, he was very deep in the 1st half and at the start of the 2nd half, he picked up alot of breaks around the middle and was covering back also this took it out of him and so he swapped with glennon.
To me it looked as if Glennon moved out to midfield very early in the second half - way too early for a conclusion as to how Henry was doing on him and way too early to end what had been working so well until then.
well he spent a sizeable amt of the second half in the full forward line hardy you could see that from the Hill, what happened was henry marked him and cahill swept in front of him, ,making things extremely difficult for him. he had no support really.
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on June 28, 2008, 05:13:40 AM
To be honest while expecting Dublin to win I am hoping for a really tough match, ideally with Westmeath getting a 4/5 point lead and Dublin having to fight back....
I want to see the Dublin fullback line and Cullen/Fennell have good games to give confidence going forward.....I also want to see Vaughan/Connolly/Whelan/Griffen come on and prove themselves as serious contenders for starting positions....
Well apart from McConnell/Griffen/Vuaghan and obviously the injury to Brogan things went as hoped...
they didn't in my view because we didn't perform. we're in complete disarray in the full back line and half forward lines. i think your synopsis prior to the game would have been fine had we played well but we didn't unfortunately . i know Dublin fans are pinning their hopes on the last 8 where the team will suddenly start performing. In my view we've more problems than we had this time last year. So the management have some work to do.
Ticket info for final:- http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/84a6391a8a.jpg
Quote from: Main Street on June 30, 2008, 01:25:55 PM
Quote from: heffo on June 30, 2008, 09:51:58 AM
Why did Glennon pop the last free over the bar? I would've thought Flanagan or someone would've had a pop at goal given the time...
I was dumbfounded by that decision.
I think that was the right decision as there was still another minute of play left. You're more likely to score a goal by winning the kickout and working it in quickly, rather than hoping to score a 13 metre free with 6 Dublin men on the line.
Generally I think the media have been incredibly hard on Dublin. They're just over analysed. Westmeath are a top team, and Dublin kept their heads cool in the last 10 minutes. The Dublin team are training to peak at the end of August, it's unrealistic for a team to be in peak from June unto September. I just think that their own fans will never be happy unto they hold Kerry scoreless and score 5-20 ... and all counties have fans like that ... but the media are now spouting the same stuff.
i've never bought into that team peaking crack. I always feel that was an anachronism put around by Jack O Connor. The reality is for all their peaking they were within an asses roar of being beaten by Limerick previously and Monaghan last season. The reality is kerry underperformed both days. I believe personally that teams use the peaking late idea as an excuse for poor early performances. You never hear Kilkenny talk about peaking. They simply try to win all competitions and don't use this tired old excuse for poor performances, Cody will simply say they underperformed.
I don't agree completely with that Indiana, and I find I've been agreeing with you all the time this past while, which was worrying me :D There is definitely a method to 'peaking' at the right time, you want to be in your peak physical condition around August and September, which means you will tailor training plans and preparation accordingly. Especially with the backdoor system, teams are somewhat willing to take a small chance, especially if they are relatively confident they can progress at 80-85%.
Kilkenny are a different animal in Croke Park in September than they are in Portlaoise in June, you can be sure of that. Likewise Kerry are still operating on medium burn up until July at the earliest.
However, where I will agree with you is that this 'peaking' is totally related to physical and mental conditioning. Skills, nous or glaring positional weaknesses that are there, or not there, in June are unlikely to be fixed in September, the odd Donaghy type fluke excepted. That's where Dublin's problems could be. Teams improve by playing games, but you still can't make lads do something they are not able to do.
Devastating stuff. I think Dublin can count themselves pretty lucky to have got a result out of this one and the analysis by the media since is both unfair on Dublin and disrespectful to Westmeath. Westmeath have shown that whatever the teams look like on paper they are as good a team as Dublin at present and if they were wearing navy and blue with a hill full of supporters behind them they'd be considered just as likely to win the all-ireland as the 20 that played for Dublin yesterday. I'm not suggesting for a minute that Westmeath will come close to winning an all-ireland in the immediate future but the constant disrespect shown to Westmeath by some of the general public and the majority of the media is increasingly hard to take.
Anyway, on the match itself. I think that there was two things that eventually swung the game in the Dubs favour, neither of which was addressed by the two groups of Einstein's on TV3 or RTÉ. The first one was Dermott Bannon's injury (I hope it's not a collar bone and he wil be back soon). He was man of the match against Dublin in Navan and early on was showing well and winning very good ball in the full forward line, his presence in there for longer would have been worth a point or two to us. Mangan as his replacement was disappointing yet again, I fear his county days could well be coming to an end.
The other thing was Dublin's use of Ciarán Whelan as a blood sub. It was akin to a game of basketball with the rotation of Ryan and Whelan from bench to pitch, you can't fault Dublin too much because they (strictly speaking) didn't break any rules and it was the ref who dictated the substitutions take place but it certainly abused the rule and it was a big advantage to have two pretty fresh midfielders coming into the last twenty minutes. Dublin won midfield convincingly for the first time in the game in the closing 20 minutes or so and Ryan and Whelan both caused problems winning ball and running at Westmeath and I think this had most to do with Westmeath's "wilting defence" as pointed out by Bernard Flynn, ball was coming at the Westmeath defence alot more regularly in that period. I think the rotation of Ryan and Whelan keeping both pretty fresh had a telling contribution to this. I counted the second substitution and it amounted to over 14 minutes not including the whole of half time! There didn't seem to be much evidence of blood on Ryan and certainly not anything that looked like it could take that length of time to clear up. It was a clear tactical ploy and this should not be allowed to happen.
Obviously Westmeath didn't help their case by missing easy frees and taking the wrong option more than a couple of times, but this was pretty much canceled out by similar play from Dublin. (Opposition have consistenly performed poorly against Westmeath this year and some pundit might eventually put two and two together and realise alot of this boils down to Westmeath's intensity.) Duffy was disappointing and he has much more ability than he showed, I hope this was just a temporary blip. O'Donoghue's distribution was excellent again (not least for the goal) for most of the game and he won some decent ball. John Keane aside Doran Harte was Westmeath's best player in my opinion, the amount of work he got through was immense and I can't recall him putting a foot wrong all day. Glennon delivered, he should have converteted that chance in the closing stages but I think he was right to take his point from the free and he showed well from play all day. I think his move out the field was a good one at the time and I'd have swapped himself and Dolan for a bit longer myself. If the ref had played the half minute that Cluxton had wasted kicking the ball out from the last free we could have nicked a goal.
I thought taking John Smith off was a mistake, he was getting through the work all day and was picking up breaking ball consistently, something which Westmeath didn't do after he was taken off. I'd have brought Flanagan on but taken Buddah off at that stage. Flanagan wasn't up to the pace of the game at all unfortunately. Without completely forgetting about this year if we can keep the stalwarts like Healy and Flanagan performing for another year, keep the hunger and workrate up, get Connellan back and give Bannon another year I'd be confident we could win Leinster next year with a fully fit team. Indeed I'd be confident we would have won yesterday with a fully fit team for the 70 minutes.
As for this year, Tomás put it well, "We're not finished yet."
Iarmhí Abú.
i think a team AZ at inter county level, requires a consistent level of improving performance throughout the year. I think teams get fitter the more games they play, and obviously because their season is lasting longer. So they should be automatically be performing better in September than June. This peaking idea is a phrase coined by gurus to make them look like Einstein when a couple of narrow escapes early on was part of some sort of long-term plan, when the reality is a puff of wind, or a refeereeing decision had more influence on a teams progress, rather than "peaking".
Quote from: INDIANA on June 30, 2008, 09:31:37 PM
they didn't in my view because we didn't perform. we're in complete disarray in the full back line and half forward lines. i think your synopsis prior to the game would have been fine had we played well but we didn't unfortunately . i know Dublin fans are pinning their hopes on the last 8 where the team will suddenly start performing. In my view we've more problems than we had this time last year. So the management have some work to do.
I don't think we were in disarry in the fullback line at all - McConnell struggled for 20 mins or so but when a full forward like Glennon is getting quality ball most backs will struggle....after the 1-4 we conceeded in the first 20 mins we held them to 4 points in last 50 mins....Shocko and Henry had good games....
Half forward line struggled after Brogan went off who was playing very well and Flynn had a poor game.....
We obviously missed the movement of Ryan through injury which didn't help.....
Yet we still scored 0-13 against statistically the best defence in Ireland while playing badly and missing countless chances.......The match was in the balance with 10 mins left when everyone said if this was the case we would be vulnerable and yet guys like Moran/Cahill/Jayo etc all stood up and took their chances....these games are far more beneficial to us than any other type...
What extra problems do we have compared to last year???
you're entitled to your opinion but in my view we have more issues than last year, there is more scope to improve certain areas than others, and some areas unfortunately are threadbare.. If you want to airbrush them thats your entitlement.
joemamas
Re: Áth Cliath vs Iarmhí
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2008, 12:14:28 AM »
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Dont mean to start something negative, however, I could not but notice the trash talking close to end of the game when westmeath got a free in from about 21 meters out. Collie Moran the main perpertrator this go round, got right in the face of the westmeath freetaker,and he in my mind the worst Dublin player on the time by a longshot, a player incidently that management seem to be bending over backwards to facilitate. Keep your ffnn mouth shut and get on with the game. Jesus as much as I would like to see Dublin win something , that sort of shit talk bothers the hell out of me. Could you ever in your wildest drunkeness envision Tomas Or Dara O Shea doing something like that.
Maybe, that is one of the reasons they are successful and Collie Moran and Co. are not. Just as a sidebar what do some of these mouthpieces work at, do they have to deal with the general public, or are they locked in an office all day.
Apologies for going on too long. Rant over.
Hound
Re: Áth Cliath vs Iarmhí
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2008, 08:38:52 AM »
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Yes, I hate that too. Though I'm pretty sure you picked out the wrong Dublin half back as the perpetrator. For what its worth, you could not meet a nicer guy off the field than Collie Moran.
The Kerry lads are well able for the thrash talk, including the O'Se's. But the Dubs lads who do it are too thick to do it subtlely.
INDIANA
Re: Áth Cliath vs Iarmhí
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2008, 09:04:57 AM »
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he has picked out the wrong player, but observation wouldn't be joe's strong point. amazing you watch a match and thats all he has to say............
Indiana,
My observations were correct, while Glennon was initially fouled by Dublin no 2, Collie Moran was in fact in Glennon's face mouthing off as he tried to take a quick free. For somebody who posts quiet often, it does bring your comments into question as regards accuracy
Game was good, Dublin way more physical, seemed to earmark Dessie Dolan for some punishing tackles, which worked as he appeared to be shagged in the last quarter. It will be interesting to see what happens when they come up against a team with more than two scoring forwards.
Quote from: AN other on July 01, 2008, 12:01:43 AM
Devastating stuff. I think Dublin can count themselves pretty lucky to have got a result out of this one and the analysis by the media since is both unfair on Dublin and disrespectful to Westmeath. Westmeath have shown that whatever the teams look like on paper they are as good a team as Dublin at present and if they were wearing navy and blue with a hill full of supporters behind them they'd be considered just as likely to win the all-ireland as the 20 that played for Dublin yesterday. I'm not suggesting for a minute that Westmeath will come close to winning an all-ireland in the immediate future but the constant disrespect shown to Westmeath by some of the general public and the majority of the media is increasingly hard to take.
Anyway, on the match itself. I think that there was two things that eventually swung the game in the Dubs favour, neither of which was addressed by the two groups of Einstein's on TV3 or RTÉ. The first one was Dermott Bannon's injury (I hope it's not a collar bone and he wil be back soon). He was man of the match against Dublin in Navan and early on was showing well and winning very good ball in the full forward line, his presence in there for longer would have been worth a point or two to us. Mangan as his replacement was disappointing yet again, I fear his county days could well be coming to an end.
The other thing was Dublin's use of Ciarán Whelan as a blood sub. It was akin to a game of basketball with the rotation of Ryan and Whelan from bench to pitch, you can't fault Dublin too much because they (strictly speaking) didn't break any rules and it was the ref who dictated the substitutions take place but it certainly abused the rule and it was a big advantage to have two pretty fresh midfielders coming into the last twenty minutes. Dublin won midfield convincingly for the first time in the game in the closing 20 minutes or so and Ryan and Whelan both caused problems winning ball and running at Westmeath and I think this had most to do with Westmeath's "wilting defence" as pointed out by Bernard Flynn, ball was coming at the Westmeath defence alot more regularly in that period. I think the rotation of Ryan and Whelan keeping both pretty fresh had a telling contribution to this. I counted the second substitution and it amounted to over 14 minutes not including the whole of half time! There didn't seem to be much evidence of blood on Ryan and certainly not anything that looked like it could take that length of time to clear up. It was a clear tactical ploy and this should not be allowed to happen.
Obviously Westmeath didn't help their case by missing easy frees and taking the wrong option more than a couple of times, but this was pretty much canceled out by similar play from Dublin. (Opposition have consistenly performed poorly against Westmeath this year and some pundit might eventually put two and two together and realise alot of this boils down to Westmeath's intensity.) Duffy was disappointing and he has much more ability than he showed, I hope this was just a temporary blip. O'Donoghue's distribution was excellent again (not least for the goal) for most of the game and he won some decent ball. John Keane aside Doran Harte was Westmeath's best player in my opinion, the amount of work he got through was immense and I can't recall him putting a foot wrong all day. Glennon delivered, he should have converteted that chance in the closing stages but I think he was right to take his point from the free and he showed well from play all day. I think his move out the field was a good one at the time and I'd have swapped himself and Dolan for a bit longer myself. If the ref had played the half minute that Cluxton had wasted kicking the ball out from the last free we could have nicked a goal.
I thought taking John Smith off was a mistake, he was getting through the work all day and was picking up breaking ball consistently, something which Westmeath didn't do after he was taken off. I'd have brought Flanagan on but taken Buddah off at that stage. Flanagan wasn't up to the pace of the game at all unfortunately. Without completely forgetting about this year if we can keep the stalwarts like Healy and Flanagan performing for another year, keep the hunger and workrate up, get Connellan back and give Bannon another year I'd be confident we could win Leinster next year with a fully fit team. Indeed I'd be confident we would have won yesterday with a fully fit team for the 70 minutes.
As for this year, Tomás put it well, "We're not finished yet."
Iarmhí Abú.
Pretty ungracious stuff there.
You lost by the same margin that we lost to the AI champions in last years semi, you cannot consider yourselves as good as Dublin as Dublin have proven themselves in Leinster.
WRT blood subs - there is no length of time specified so there was no rule breaking. I don't know what side of the ground you were sitting, but I was in the row directly behind the Dublin bench and his nose was pouring blood initially when it was stiched and it reopened completely with blood pouring out of it.
I'm sure Ryan going off, back on, then off again, all in the first half was completely genuine. The chap had blood puring from his nose, it stopped, then it started again. I think the general disarray it caused had a big impact for the Westmeath goal with a number of Dubs nowhere near their men for some reason.
Ryan looked ready to resume after about 5 minutes of the second half, did a couple of runs up the side of the field - but the next time I looked he was sat back down with the physio at his nose again. Did it start bleeding again or did they delay because Whelan had started the second half in very good form? In any event Whelan himself picked up an injury 5 minutes later and Ryan was then ready to resume.
Barring the initial and costly disruption, it did work out well for the Dubs, with the three midfielders getting between 40 and 50 minutes game time each. Maybe we should get Shane to get bloody in every game. No better man to take one for the team! (I think it was his own man who got him too)
I think Ryan got another bang after he came back on. He wasn't too happy with one of the Westmeath lads after a tackle on the Cusack stand side. Went off again straight afterwards.
Quote from: Jinxy on July 01, 2008, 12:50:47 PM
I think Ryan got another bang after he came back on. He wasn't too happy with one of the Westmeath lads after a tackle on the Cusack stand side. Went off again straight afterwards.
First knock was with McConnell and resulted in Dublin dropping posession and W/Meath kicking a point as a result.
I know, but when he came back on after getting treatment for that injury, he got another belt which opened the nose up again.
I know!! I assumed that was what you meant by 'another belt'.
Then why are you telling me how he got the first belt u mentalist! :D
Quote from: Jinxy on July 01, 2008, 01:49:49 PM
Then why are you telling me how he got the first belt u mentalist! :D
Cos between belts, knocks, noses, CCCC, DRA, late arrivals, early arrivals, due process, trial by media, full back problems, arrogant Dublin players and whatever else, I don't know whether I'm coming or going!
Quote from: heffo on July 01, 2008, 08:36:56 AM
Pretty ungracious stuff there.
You lost by the same margin that we lost to the AI champions in last years semi, you cannot consider yourselves as good as Dublin as Dublin have proven themselves in Leinster.
WRT blood subs - there is no length of time specified so there was no rule breaking. I don't know what side of the ground you were sitting, but I was in the row directly behind the Dublin bench and his nose was pouring blood initially when it was stiched and it reopened completely with blood pouring out of it.
Do you want to point out ungraciousness or do you just want to make sweeping statements? Dublin won (obviously) and the best of luck to them, I was simply outlining what
I thought were two pretty crucial factors that contributed to this. As you pointed out previously in this thread everybody is entitled to their opinion so get off your high horse.
I can consider Westmeath to be whatever I want to consider them to be. You previously scoffed at the suggestion that Westmeath could match Dublin with both teams at full strength following our win in the league final, something which was shown they could do yesterday, so I wouldn't be giving anything you have to say following the latest episode much weight.
If you read my post properly I said there was no rules broken. As I was sitting on the far side of the ground and haven't seen the first 20 minutes of the game in full on TV I'll just have to take what you're saying about the blood at face value but I would still remain a bit perplexed how somebody could continue in a game at all if they couldn't be fixed up within a time much shorter than half an hour (15 minutes playing time and about 15 minutes half time break). Deliberate tactic or not I still think it affected the game significantly in the last 20 minutes.
Quote from: AN other on July 01, 2008, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: heffo on July 01, 2008, 08:36:56 AM
Pretty ungracious stuff there.
You lost by the same margin that we lost to the AI champions in last years semi, you cannot consider yourselves as good as Dublin as Dublin have proven themselves in Leinster.
WRT blood subs - there is no length of time specified so there was no rule breaking. I don't know what side of the ground you were sitting, but I was in the row directly behind the Dublin bench and his nose was pouring blood initially when it was stiched and it reopened completely with blood pouring out of it.
Do you want to point out ungraciousness or do you just want to make sweeping statements? Dublin won (obviously) and the best of luck to them, I was simply outlining what I thought were two pretty crucial factors that contributed to this. As you pointed out previously in this thread everybody is entitled to their opinion so get off your high horse.
I can consider Westmeath to be whatever I want to consider them to be. You previously scoffed at the suggestion that Westmeath could match Dublin with both teams at full strength following our win in the league final, something which was shown they could do yesterday, so I wouldn't be giving anything you have to say following the latest episode much weight.
If you read my post properly I said there was no rules broken. As I was sitting on the far side of the ground and haven't seen the first 20 minutes of the game in full on TV I'll just have to take what you're saying about the blood at face value but I would still remain a bit perplexed how somebody could continue in a game at all if they couldn't be fixed up within a time much shorter than half an hour (15 minutes playing time and about 15 minutes half time break). Deliberate tactic or not I still think it affected the game significantly in the last 20 minutes.
Take it easy there ANO, I'm not on any high horse - your post was ungracious - no congratulations for Dublin and claiming that Westmeath were just as good as Dublin - this isn't the case unfortunatly.
Of course you can consider Westmeath to be as good as the eventual AI winners, but I can still point out that you may be wrong.
You're perfectly entitled to point out that Dublin may have taken the piss with the blood sub, but I can say that Westmeath took the piss delaying kickouts to waste time until the last few minutes and set themselves up to play a tight game and hence the narrow margin - Dublin were poor and on the basis of that performance won't be going very far.
The one we left behind, bad decision making, poor handling and eight wides in the second half tells its own story. Interesting to see neutral comments on Dublin getting soft frees in the first half as I thought they got more controversial frees in the second half. Special mention to Keaney, for such a big built up fellow he goes to ground very easily or draws the frees or whatever ur having yourself. Still though I was proud of the Westmeath players and management that they didn't go ballistic at the ref at the final whistle and he was allowed to leave the field unaccompanied by gardai, which is a rare sight unfortunately these days. He's a young lad, hopefully he learns from this. Injury time in both halves was a joke. John Keane was very magnaminous in his post match interview, was looking at his and his defensive colleagues deficiencies rather than the second half shortcomings up front, and credit to him, a true sign to the togetherness of this squad.
The game hinged on three moments for me, the first was Morans shocking "tackle" on Bannon who had started promisingly. Kevin Reilly got a month for a similar "tackle" and I'd expect the same result here. Interesting the boys on the Sunday Game didn't sit on the fence on this one, I suppose it's different when it's not one of ur own ::) We replaced Bannon with Budda and unbelievably played him inside >:( He offers us absolutely nothing in there, no pace whatsoever. Second was Dessie's missed free, he'll be having nightmares about that one, and third was Sherlocks point, when the chips were down he stood up to be counted and credit to him.
On the trash talking, well it's disappointing to see that again really, I'm sure it will come back to bite like it did last year. I don't buy this "Dublin were very poor", well apart from McConnell that is (the man is never a full back), Dublin weren't allowed play. When Alan Brogran managed to slip JK he did damage and the reason he didn't do an awful lot of it is down to the marking job, was great to see JK back to his best. Said last week that we had to hold the two Brogans and Jayo and we did, which makes the loss even harder to take. I didn't see any of them being substituted so when Connolly came on for Bernard he was basically the difference in the Dublin attack. Anytime he got clean ball he did damage. Dublin will win the Leinster Final handy enough, they have the better forwards and midfield than Wexford and probably an equal enough defence. Need to sort out the full back position.
Glennon was sensational early on, turned McConnell inside out. Regarding bringing him out in the second half, well we wanted to/needed to get him into the game more, he destroyed Cork when moved out there in the league game this year. However no point bringing him out when u don't have 2 inside forwards inside, and Budda and Willo are certainly not inside forwards. Dessie was excellent as well, however another good performance in Croker is gonna be overshadowed by a missed free. Thought we were gonna see it out when Casey was put on him for the second half...
Willo and Budda were poor and didn't really offer anything, should've been subbed earlier and kept away from the full forward line. Smyth was his usual hard working self but distribution was below par, Doran Harte must have ran JK close for motm, unbelievable engine on him, can play ball but loves to keep it simple, a managers dream...
Overall I think we lost the crucial midfield battle. O'Donoghue battled and broke ball all day and played an absolutely sensational ball in to Natchie for the goal as well as other excellent passes. Duffy struggled really, didn't catch much, handling was poor, delivery was worse and his day was probably summed up with the wide towards the end. We really missed Flans experience in the middle, gutted for him that we didn't delivery him the chance for a Leinster medal. Hopefully he gets back to fitness in the next couple of weeks...
JK as already stated was back to his brilliant 04 form, anytime Brogan looked like popping out of his pocket he stuffed him back in there. The rest of the backs were their usual solid selves without really coming to the fore. Anyways well done to the Dublin team, they hung in there, battled it out and won a tight battle, something they're not often credited with. The jeerers and the day outers make it hard to warm to the Dublin support and enlightening encounters with the Jacks are decreasing by the year. Respectable crown in the stand though so maybe they are confined mostly to the Hill, pity u can't lock them in there after the match...
So where do we go from here? Traditionally it has always been a battle for Westmeath to get themselves right mentally for the qualifiers but we've got a kind draw and should try to make the most of it. Bannon is out with a broken collar bone from that "tackle" so I'd start David Glennon inside with the brother and see if he can cut the mustard at this level and make an impact over 70 minutes. I'd look to use Flan sparingly again, Duffy deserves another shot in the middle and would like to see how Flan gets on inside for the last 15 minutes. If this team pulls together, get the heads down, get over Tipp and give whoever we draw next a right rattle then it can go far. Leinster is gone, we should now aim for an All-Ireland semi-final, it's certainly not beyond us!!!
WE'RE NOT FINISHED YET!!!
That's rich about Keaney, considering Glennon's antics.
I don't know how any honest Westmeath man could say Dublin got more soft frees than Westmeath. Its simply untrue. And the stats of 31-18 for frees in Westmeath's favour back that up.
I personally thought Dolan wasted a sea of ball in the second half. He got to every ball before Casey, but usually Casey forced him out wide and he mostly gave it away or went backwards.
In fairness Croí, Dublin missed 2/3 relatively handy free's and had a fair few wides themselves.
Quote from: Hound on July 01, 2008, 02:55:22 PM
That's rich about Keaney, considering Glennon's antics.
I don't know how any honest Westmeath man could say Dublin got more soft frees than Westmeath. Its simply untrue. And the stats of 31-18 for frees in Westmeath's favour back that up.
Haven't seen the replay of the Glennon incident but from accounts on here he was reacting to trash talk from Moran (who shouldn't even have been on the field). Haven't had time to watch a full replay yet but carbon copies of incidents that were awarded as frees to Dublin were not awarded down the other end. The one baffling decision that Westmeath did get (Henry & Glennon watching ball drift over endline) was preceded by a blatant foul. Haven't seen them stats but those defenders are well versed in the tackle and know how to execute it, maybe we need to be more cynical.
Quote from: Jinxy on July 01, 2008, 03:06:02 PM
In fairness Croí, Dublin missed 2/3 relatively handy free's and had a fair few wides themselves.
They sure did but I still think it's one we left behind, never pushed on after our great start and should have been ahead at half time. Didn't have the end product that our start to the second half deserved.
Quote from: heffo on July 01, 2008, 02:11:26 PM
Take it easy there ANO, I'm not on any high horse - your post was ungracious - no congratulations for Dublin and claiming that Westmeath were just as good as Dublin - this isn't the case unfortunatly.
By that logic you didn't offer any commiserations to Westmeath so you're posts have been pretty undignified...I also don't see how making a claim that Westmeath were as good as Dublin amounts to ungraciousness. Caffrey more or less said the same when saying Westmeath were unlucky not to get the draw. Dublin won on the day (and loads of congratulations, fair play and the best of luck to them ;)) but it could easily have been Westmeath.
Quote from: heffo on July 01, 2008, 02:11:26 PM
Of course you can consider Westmeath to be as good as the eventual AI winners, but I can still point out that you may be wrong.
You can, but I never said Westmeath were as good as any all-ireland winners, I said that they are presently as good as Dublin, the present being this year, to date, league and championship. A point between them in the league (without mentioning finals and trips to Cork) and nothing between the two sides on Sunday. Dublin perhaps have more talent and potential individually and have a bit more capacity to improve but the two teams are evenly matched so far this year.
Quote from: heffo on July 01, 2008, 02:11:26 PM
You're perfectly entitled to point out that Dublin may have taken the piss with the blood sub, but I can say that Westmeath took the piss delaying kickouts to waste time until the last few minutes and set themselves up to play a tight game and hence the narrow margin - Dublin were poor and on the basis of that performance won't be going very far.
What are you trying to argue by stating the obvious set up of Westmeath? I don't recall Connaughton delaying kickouts, nor do I recall the ref taking issue with this at all.
I don't think Dublin were poor, apart from McConnell getting the run around from Glennon and a couple of missed frees. This was the hardest game Dublin have got in leinster since Westmeath beat them in 2004 (edit: One meath game aside perhaps) and they simply weren't let play with the fluidity that people might expect and hope for. If I were a follower of the Dubs I'd be pretty satisfied that others got the scores on the board when the chief attackers were curtailed. Biased as I may be I doubt Brogan and co. in the forwards will have a tougher game all year.
looks like Moran got 4 weeks. upgraded to a red card, that should keep O Neill and the mob happy.
If indeed this is true, not sorry for him for the aforementioned mouthing off. Having said that advantage Dublin, Caffrey will not lose any sleep over losing a mediocre footballer. Far less controversial than dropping him.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 01, 2008, 03:17:02 PM
Haven't seen the replay of the Glennon incident but from accounts on here he was reacting to trash talk from Moran (who shouldn't even have been on the field). Haven't had time to watch a full replay yet but carbon copies of incidents that were awarded as frees to Dublin were not awarded down the other end. The one baffling decision that Westmeath did get (Henry & Glennon watching ball drift over endline) was preceded by a blatant foul. Haven't seen them stats but those defenders are well versed in the tackle and know how to execute it, maybe we need to be more cynical.
Thats absolute bull about frees awarded to Dublin that werent awarded down the other end! Dolan and Glennon went down at the slightest touch, though at least Glennon didnt lie around feigning injury on a number of occassions like Dessie. Interesting that Dessie accounted for 6 of Westmeath's 12 wides.
The Moran "mouthing off incident" was absolutely nothing. Saw it again last night. Glennon was awarded a free, and started mouthing at Henry. Moran then came in and started mouthing and Glennon, and Glennon gave him lip back. There were a couple of incidents of bad sportsmanship by both teams, but there was nothing in that one.
Saw a replay of the Moran incident. It was unfortunate really. Pure freak that an injury resulted. There was no hint of an elbow, but it was a decent hit with the shoulder and Bannon was in process of losing his footing so was coming in very low. There was no malice or intent to injure, so I think a red card would have been very harsh, but given the injury and the pressure put on by the media, the ref was bound to crumble and change it to a red, as he has done.
It appears that the Sunday Game is now also a special discplinary committee, there was heavy contact made but i don't think the intent was there. once it was revisited the ref , there was only one outcome. Neat sidestep by Spillane on the galvin incident while he almost ensured an upgrade of the ban on this incident. the programme is descending into a shambles.
I agree about Moran's hit. Another accident - Bannon fell into the tackle. But the Brennan regime has its statistics, never mind the injustice done to lads and their reputations. The annual report will trumpet a new dawn for discipline, citing increased suspensions etc., while ignoring the true ills assailing the game and allowing the cheating, diving and injury feigning to flourish unchecked.
Our game is going to hell and the Mary Poppins tendency has won.
I reckon that is the most dangerous type of tackle in the game but it's hard to gauge anyone's intent, but I thought Moran knew exactly what he was doing.
I don't think there was any intent there, but if the CCCC are going to review all cases like this from now on (A La Kevin Reilly) then Dublin can't really have any complaints.
Thats not the issue Heffo. The issue is Sunday Game pundits issuing a carte blanche to their own counties and slaughtering other counties in their analysis of these incidents. Tohill said intent was irrelevent in the Moran case the action was all that counted, yet in the Fegal Doherty incident he stated that intent was important. Spillane ensured "due process" was used in the Galvin incident but ensured that both Reilly and moran were slaughtered for other incidents. Confused? I know i am. I don't pay my TV Licence for such blatant bias. That incident wouldn't have been revisited only for the kangaroo court on the Sunday Game.
If the Gaa want to revisit incidents of their own accord that is absolutely fine. But let them do it and not have these clowns do it for them.
I agree 100%, but regardless of the blatant bias shown by the pundits (not forgetting Mr Davis last summer and O'Learys off the ball punch on Geraghty) - the Doherty incident was revisited and Galvin was dealt with appropriately.
Quote from: Hound on July 02, 2008, 07:46:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 01, 2008, 03:17:02 PM
Haven't seen the replay of the Glennon incident but from accounts on here he was reacting to trash talk from Moran (who shouldn't even have been on the field). Haven't had time to watch a full replay yet but carbon copies of incidents that were awarded as frees to Dublin were not awarded down the other end. The one baffling decision that Westmeath did get (Henry & Glennon watching ball drift over endline) was preceded by a blatant foul. Haven't seen them stats but those defenders are well versed in the tackle and know how to execute it, maybe we need to be more cynical.
Thats absolute bull about frees awarded to Dublin that werent awarded down the other end! Dolan and Glennon went down at the slightest touch, though at least Glennon didnt lie around feigning injury on a number of occassions like Dessie. Interesting that Dessie accounted for 6 of Westmeath's 12 wides.
Jaysus Hound, I had u down as one of the more measured Dubs on here and then u come out with that :o Dolan and Glennon went down at the slightest touch :D The only times I can remember Glennon on the ground was when McConnell tried to take the shirt off his back and when McConnell and Henry came completely through the back of him. As for Dessie, well Jayo took him completely out of it in the first half and then tried to drag him to his feet >:( Went in with the knee and Dessie was lucky that didn't result in a dead leg (O'Donoghue and Harte were also on the receiving end of these "tackles"). Another time Casey just pushed him straight over the sideline and he took the opportunity to take a breather, shouldn't be a big surprise considering the amount of work he does. Not to mention the time Casey clipped his heels, Dessie tried to play the ball away on the ground and had a free awarded against him :o
Would u care to comment on the three incidents involving Keaney? For a while I thought there was a sniper on the roof...
Quote from: Hound on July 02, 2008, 07:46:53 AM
The Moran "mouthing off incident" was absolutely nothing. Saw it again last night. Glennon was awarded a free, and started mouthing at Henry. Moran then came in and started mouthing and Glennon, and Glennon gave him lip back. There were a couple of incidents of bad sportsmanship by both teams, but there was nothing in that one.
Saw it last night myself, Henry came through the back of Glennon who tried to take a quick free kick. Like happens in 99% of these situations they had a bit of a go at each other, the ball was moved forward and Moran comes rushing in to add his tuppence worth. I thought "mouthing off" got a yellow this year ???
Quote from: Hound on July 02, 2008, 07:46:53 AM
Saw a replay of the Moran incident. It was unfortunate really. Pure freak that an injury resulted. There was no hint of an elbow, but it was a decent hit with the shoulder and Bannon was in process of losing his footing so was coming in very low. There was no malice or intent to injure, so I think a red card would have been very harsh, but given the injury and the pressure put on by the media, the ref was bound to crumble and change it to a red, as he has done.
Eh Bannon was stumbling for a good while, he had his head at the same height for at least 2 metres. I have absolutely no idea how you can say it was a decent hit with the shoulder when it made contact with the neck area and I think you'll find that the collar bone is one of the weaker bones in the body and is the very reason why frontal charges, high challenges aren't allowed. Whether there was malice or intent to injure or not it was an extremely reckless and dangerous challenge and has probably put the lad out for the summer. More a red than a yellow and was certainly worse than Kevin Reillys who got a respective 4 week ban. To show consistency the GAA had to deal with this incident and rightly so.
Saw the match on Setanta last night, crystallises what posters were saying about Dublin getting soft frees in the first half. Best to leave it there and move on. Tip to Tipp to think about now, rumours that Duffy may be out after having an ankle operation on Monday on hoganstand, may explain his poor distribution...
Regarding the kangaroo court on the Sunday Game, laughable alright that they sit on the fence one week and not the next but whether they do or not it doesn't seem to have any influence on the CCCC. It would be nice to know thought who makes the decisions to revisit these incidents, is it Nicky at home on a Sunday evening or do the CCCC have to watch every minute of every televised game in a room in Croker???
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 02, 2008, 11:48:58 AM
The only times I can remember Glennon on the ground was when McConnell tried to take the shirt off his back and when McConnell and Henry came completely through the back of him. As for Dessie, well Jayo took him completely out of it in the first half and then tried to drag him to his feet
Hillarious ;D
I'm sure even Dessie was embarrased looking back at the Sherlock incident. Phenomenal recovery powers as soon as the yellow was issued ::)
But indeed, perhaps its time to move on and think about Tipp.
Dissapointed to see this has turned into the usual nit picking over every little incident and blaming of the ref over every decision.
Dublin won, just, and deserved to win, just.
Lets draw a line in the sand and look forward to the next games for both countries.
I must say though, its a long while since i've seen a defense as impresive as Westmeaths.
Quote from: Hound on July 02, 2008, 12:19:03 PMI'm sure even Dessie was embarrased looking back at the Sherlock incident. Phenomenal recovery powers as soon as the yellow was issued ::)
So he was lying around on the ground to ensure a yellow was issued, even though Jayo it was plain as day he used his knee to upend him. And as soon as he saw the yellow he was up and about like a spring chicken ::) If that's the case then lying around on the ground didn't ensure justice for Bannon ::) Notice no comment on Keaney, now that was embarrasing :-[ Hopefully we get our lads back from injury and get through the qualifiers, would love another crack at yous...
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 02, 2008, 01:40:09 PM
Hopefully we get our lads back from injury and get through the qualifiers, would love another crack at yous...
Croí, the Kevin Keegan of Gaaboard! ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 03, 2008, 11:00:00 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 02, 2008, 01:40:09 PM
Hopefully we get our lads back from injury and get through the qualifiers, would love another crack at yous...
Croí, the Kevin Keegan of Gaaboard! ;)
WUD LUV IT!!! :D