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From www.orchardcounty.com

COISTE CONTAE ARD MHACHA

PRESS RELEASE

It is with great reluctance and regret that Armagh County Board announce that Senior Football Team Manager JOE KERNAN has advised them of his decision to step down from his position.

The board would like to sincerely thank Joe and his entire backroom team for the devotion and commitment they have given to Armagh football and to recognise the major roles that they all played during what has proven to be the most successful period in the county's history

During his time in charge Joe took the preparation of our senior county team to new levels.

His attention to detail on every aspect of football and player management has set standards for present and future team mangers

On behalf of Armagh County Board and Clubs in the County we thank Joe, his Backroom Team and Players sincerely for the success, happiness and Joy they brought to all the Gaels of Armagh at home and abroad. We will always be indebted to Joe for achieving this.

Well the guy who posted it on Orchardcounty is a moderator, so it may be reliable.

Joe is due the thanks of all Armagh people, either way.

John Maughan >:( please copy

Thanks for the memories.

All the best.

Quote from: hardstation on July 18, 2007, 07:48:19 PM
What odds would you get at this stage of Joseph being the next Ireland compromise rules manager?

Only, if Morgan Fuels sponsor the team......

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 18, 2007, 07:45:51 PM
Thanks for the memories.

All the best.

No bother.....good luck POG.

no big surprise there, wonder where he will end up next mind you

Certainly a man with a midos touch. Thanks for 2002, it'll never be forgotten.

Quote from: Uladh on July 18, 2007, 08:34:36 PM

Certainly a man with a midos touch. Thanks for 2002, it'll never be forgotten.

mido's touch. He's crap. No wonder Spurs wanted rid of him.

Thanks for 2002, it'll never be forgotten. - judging by the comments on this board it already has been. A bunch of hypocrites.

The torch has passed:

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1575000/images/_1577298_johnmorrison150.jpg)

Think big joe will take over the dirty dubs next season ;)

Morrison, Kernan, Grimley, Tierney, the 2002-2007 Armagh team -  a lot of 'big' men in Armagh it seems. A bit like the RUC - overfed Bastards.

done a great job with armagh , but should have went last year.

Stayed on at least a year too long in my view.
Grimleys departure has forever cast a shadow over the "brains" of the operation.
Tunnel vision of playing son stephen while a lot of people within armagh couldnt see why?
Too loyal to some players and not cut throat enough to sideline them.

He will be hard to replace all the same. Not many will want to manage a sinking ship !! ;)

Crikey! he was on the RTE phone in on Sunday and was close to saying that he was to seek to get another year out of it? iie - the great talent coming through and how he had a longer plan.... He must have had a wee bet on the side..

Thanks for everything Joe.

Led Armagh to glory when everyone said they were over the hill in 2001.

We might never see a team like them again - we should appreciate a bit better the legends that stand among us.

QuoteMorrison, Kernan, Grimley, Tierney, the 2002-2007 Armagh team -  a lot of 'big' men in Armagh it seems. A bit like the RUC - overfed Bastards.

That's another surprise O'Neill - never took you for the highly intellectual type!

Joe leaving is the end of an era but I don't think it signals the end of Armagh as long as the right man is installed as his successor.
I'm sure Joe will be back in the GAA at some point ( if he ever really leaves ). He has to be regarded not only as Armagh's most successful manager ever, but also one of the most successful managers ever in gaelic football. To win 4 All-Ireland titles at both club and county level is almost unprecedented - especially when one considers that neither team had won an All Ireland previously.

Quote from: Datsun Donaghy on July 18, 2007, 09:37:24 PM

QuoteMorrison, Kernan, Grimley, Tierney, the 2002-2007 Armagh team -  a lot of 'big' men in Armagh it seems. A bit like the RUC - overfed Bastards.

That's another surprise O'Neill - never took you for the highly intellectual type!

Joe leaving is the end of an era but I don't think it signals the end of Armagh as long as the right man is installed as his successor.
I'm sure Joe will be back in the GAA at some point ( if he ever really leaves ). He has to be regarded not only as Armagh's most successful manager ever, but also one of the most successful managers ever in gaelic football. To win 4 All-Ireland titles at both club and county level is almost unprecedented - especially when one considers that neither team had won an All Ireland previously.



Fair point about his achievements he will be some act to follow who ever takes the Armagh  job

I think the bloke is a bit of an under achiever, maybe if he had of left a few years ago Armagh would have challenged more.

I think the Armagh fans who have been mouthing about Joe will only realise what they are mssing in a year or 2. He couldnt stay on due to the amount of anti Joe feeling that was building up. The same people who have shouted looking rid of him will be the same one's in a year or 2 shouting the loudest looking him back when the whole thing goes pear shaped. The man won an ireland in his first year - something Armagh had never done and won 4 ulsters with a limited enough team. Well doe big Joe.

Quote from: Uladh on July 18, 2007, 09:52:06 PM

Whispers coming through if a major bust up at the executive meeting earlier this evening. strange development considering joe mor went to it seeking a further term.

Does that mean that he was pushed ?                           If true not a great way to treat the man that brought Armagh their only  senior All Ireland

Thanks for the memories Joe, they will never be forgotten.  The man who brought Cross and Armagh the most prolific period in their history and one which will take some beating.

And my money is on him being a future manager of Dublin....big bucks on offer, high profile position, how could he turn it down if offered?!

Quote from: Bensars on July 18, 2007, 10:16:04 PM

Quote from: Uladh on July 18, 2007, 09:52:06 PM

Whispers coming through if a major bust up at the executive meeting earlier this evening. strange development considering joe mor went to it seeking a further term.

Does that mean that he was pushed ?                           If true not a great way to treat the man that brought Armagh their only  senior All Ireland

So he should be allowed to manage the team for as long as he wants?

Best of luck to Joe.

In a way, he was an author of our success too  ;)

no chance big joe would take the fermanagh job? not too far to travel compared to southern teams, we're not a big ulster rival and he wouldn't undergo the media specualtion that would be involved with a team like dublin. Am i just kidding myself here?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 18, 2007, 10:50:40 PM

Quote from: Bensars on July 18, 2007, 10:16:04 PM

Quote from: Uladh on July 18, 2007, 09:52:06 PM

Whispers coming through if a major bust up at the executive meeting earlier this evening. strange development considering joe mor went to it seeking a further term.

Does that mean that he was pushed ?                           If true not a great way to treat the man that brought Armagh their only  senior All Ireland

So he should be allowed to manage the team for as long as he wants?

Not all POG. However if he was surplus to requirements i think he should have been told ( considering all he has done for armagh football as player, club and county manager) rather than suffering the indignation ( if uladhs whisper is true) of turning up to an executive meeting to seek a further term.

Whether or not you like him, think he should stay or go i think the county board could have treated him with a bit of respect

Joe Kernan's contribution to Armagh football has been enormous and will never be forgotten.

None of us know the ins and outs of this announcement and the county board's thinking. So to speculate on it is a bit silly.

QuoteThe man won an ireland in his first year - something Armagh had never done and won 4 ulsters with a limited enough team.

A limited enough team? Give me a break.  Armagh supporters are well aware of what Kernan and the players have achieved over the years.

Thanks Joe.

Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 18, 2007, 08:01:19 PM

Where is there for him to go? Cross dont need a manager, they are doing quite well, he probably wouldnt manage another Ulster county team and if he were to take on a Southern county squad it would cost them a lot. I think he will take a well deserved rest, but he would be an ideal International Rules manager if it ever gets going again.

I know Down could be doing with a decent manager of Joe Kernan's caliber but then again Down's problems don't start and end with a new manager a set of 15 new players is what Down really require. Down are currently the laughing stock of Ulster they are one of the only teams in Ulster to have never experienced playing in an All-Ireland quarter-final. Long may it continue :) :) :)

If not mistaken Couny Clare needs a new manager.

We'd take him in Laois!

Joe Kernan has always given his all to Armagh both as a player and as a manager. As a Tyrone fan I have always been a little bit envious of his achievements and his ability to to make the sum of the parts greater than than the individual talents.

We should wish him all the best in the future, but I dont believe he will manage any other County team as I think his motivation has always been sucess for Armagh.

Well done Joe, you have helped to make Ulster football a standard to be achieved through out Ireland, rather than a province simply to make up the numbers.

I believe that more southern journalists, pundits & critics will welcome his resignation than we Ulster gaels.

Can't believe that this hasn't been picked up by the national media over FIVE HOURS after that statement was on orchard county. I actually doubted it except that it is on the county board site too.  

Armagh have been a good, even very good, team since 99, but ultimately not great  Six Ulster title in the last ten seasons years is not to be sniffed at but one All Ireland and two final appearences in that period puts them firmly behind Kerry, Tyrone and Galway and on a par with Meath in the same period.

Did they underacheive? No.  They were a team whose whole was greater than the parts and they sustained that 'wholeness' and dug out results that others didn't have the gumption to deliver tijme and time again.  Kernan was the finishing touch to that menatl hardness.  The base of it was there in the frustratiions of '99, '00 and '01.  Was he 'great'.  A good manager - as in he managed the co-ordination of a lot of things, a motivator, a leader in that he would walk the path untrodden, a communicator - all those things yes but a limted tactician. Comparisons are unfair.  He did what no other Armagh man did and in the way he and his team went about putting the team together he set nesw stanards for everybody.  Whethetr he was personally the man that did x or y is irrellevant - he was the man that gave McCloskey the room to wor and Grimley or whoever else ye credit.  He made the team that worked.  They will not be remembered as a great team but the legacy will be that this team will be remembered as standard setters when many others that won more are long forgotten.

P.S. Kernan, P Se and Mulvihill all resigning on the one day - what a whirlwind day to be a GAA hack

Strong rumour here in Down,that Paddy O Rourke is being Head-Hunted by Armagh to fill their manegerial vacancy. Could be a good move, although he failed to meet the required standards in Down, he may well achieve some level of success with a County of lower pedigree, where expectations would not be so high.

Joe was a master at churning out a win having trailed for the majority of a game.
Joe was a disaster at throwing away a victory having led for much of the game.

Its a sad end to a proud reign over Armagh football.  He reminded me of Bismarck - a powerful leader but I suspect without him and the Mc Geeneys/ Mc Granes, Armagh football will endure 3 years of cold decline.  I would imagine a new manager will p45 these guys as well, as it would be difficult to manage a camp with such strong personality still within.  So yes it is an era for Armagh football.  Big Joe was unable to do what Boylan done and perform rebuilding within his own era, but then again few managers in any discipline can rebuild what time has bypassed. From a GAA perspective I enjoyed his charisma, quips, sportsmanship and his passion for the game.  In the last few years som Armagh fans questioned his integrity in team selection accusing him of nepotism indeed the buzzards - POG etc had been circling for quite a while and they eventually picked off enough meat to form a kill.  Good luck to him and I would love him to test himself with another county like Fermanagh or god forbid Down but he done a very fine job with an Armagh team that belied its talent. 

Well done Joe and thanks for bringing Cross and Armagh to a level that would not have been achieved otherwise.  I am probably the only poster here who has worked directly with Joe for a sustained period of time and believe me the man knows more about how to win games than anyone here.  All you buzzards as rrhf so rightly called you can fcuk away off now and leave the man and his family alone.  While there may not have been direct attacks on them Uladh with his "rumours" and "stories" always had a wee side story to every event and POG with his Blue and Gold Bridge glasses cannot see beyond Creggan Bridge. 

If you can show me any other football manager in recent times who has managed teams to 16 championship wins in just over 10 years then fair play to you. 

Take you time Joe and enjoy the sun, it's not like you don't deserve it.

Paul Grimley and several senior players seen drinking together on Monday night. Et tu, Brute?
What goes around comes around.
PG to be back at the helm for next season. ;)

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 19, 2007, 09:34:30 AM
Well done Joe and thanks for bringing Cross and Armagh to a level that would not have been achieved otherwise.  I am probably the only poster here who has worked directly with Joe for a sustained period of time and believe me the man knows more about how to win games than anyone here.  All you buzzards as rrhf so rightly called you can fcuk away off now and leave the man and his family alone.  While there may not have been direct attacks on them Uladh with his "rumours" and "stories" always had a wee side story to every event and POG with his Blue and Gold Bridge glasses cannot see beyond Creggan Bridge. 

If you can show me any other football manager in recent times who has managed teams to 16 championship wins in just over 10 years then fair play to you. 

Take you time Joe and enjoy the sun, it's not like you don't deserve it.

While we owe a debt of gratitude to Joe i dont think we can ignore the rumblings in the camp, if the man had lost the dressing room as reported then there was no other option. Everything has its cycle and Joe brought us to the summit and for that he has our thanks and appreciation. Hopefully the issues can be ironed out and we will be back challenging next season.
Well done Joe and good luck.

Aye but seriously this opens another can of worms.  Who is managing Armagh football at the moment.  The players in pubs or a strong county board.  Any players working behind the scenes ala Dessie Farrell etc need the road.  They are above their station.  Im not saying it was but If this turned out to be a coup on the most successful manager in Armaghs history then thats stinks of the indians trying to become the chiefs.  A question to the hawks,  will a new manager kick the rest of the Kernans out with their da or do you think these guys have earned it.     

I always had great time for Joe, respect for his achievements and admiration for the football his teams played. Real football from a real GAA man.

At his retirement, I would just like to say congratulations to Joe Kernan for continuing the good work that was done prior to his arrival, and for bringing his Armagh team to the next level. They raised the bar for everybody with their approach, determination and self sacrifice for the good of the team. Joe Kernan and his team take a lot of the credit for that. He said that Armagh were good for the GAA, and all in all I agree with him.

So congratulations to Joe Kernan, a great leader of men, and a leader of great men. Enjoy the retirement. Any chance you'd like a nixer in Offaly?

Fair play to Joe, his achievements for Armagh were great for a county that had won nothing in the past and he should always be remembered for that contribution. Its unfortunate for him that they were not good enough to push on and win a second All Ireland. But as someone who was there and suffered the pain of losing in 2002 I can still say that it was one of the great days of the GAA.

On a personal note for Joe I hope he takes some time out to look after himself, he has a serious weight problem thats needs looking after and he is a heart attack waiting to happen. Best of luck for the future Joe.

Huge thanks to Joe for all he did for Armagh football (in spite of being sacked along with Paddy Mo in 1991 leading to the appointment of two clowns in Mc Corry and Morrison who took us to the absolute depths).

By the way am I the only one not particularly mad about Paul Grimley as a successor. After all he was part of the camp for 5 years, and if a change in direction is needed then surely he is not the man to provide it. I'd prefer John Rafferty with the assistance of someone completely new.

QuoteHe couldnt stay on due to the amount of anti Joe feeling that was building up.

Absolute shite! Well done Joe and thanks.

Correct Tony.  It would resemble the Steve Mc Laran appointment.  If you are part of the supposed problem and all that.  A complete change is needed.  My moneys on Jody Gormley.  

john rafferty is not the man. whilst I agree with rhf about the role of senior players in this is wrong we should realise that these players have sweated blood for the cause for the past 10 years .They must be desperate te get another crack at SAM to undermine Joe in such a way.
We can sit here and pontificate about the rights and wrongs of Joe but he always did his best for Armagh as have the players 
My only worry is that although PG should get his chance will he be too friendly with the squad ( have seen him drinking with them on a few occasions), this could make hard decisions difficult in the heat of battle. leaders should not socialise with footsoldiers

Always had great time for him. Great service to Cross and Armagh over the years and by all accounts a good guy to boot. Still remember him bursting through the Dubs defence in 1977 and unleashing the left foot hammer. His achievements as manager cannot be denied. Hope he enjoys his break

Quote from: naka on July 19, 2007, 10:20:35 AM
john rafferty is not the man. whilst I agree with rhf about the role of senior players in this is wrong we should realise that these players have sweated blood for the cause for the past 10 years .They must be desperate te get another crack at SAM to undermine Joe in such a way.
We can sit here and pontificate about the rights and wrongs of Joe but he always did his best for Armagh as have the players 
My only worry is that although PG should get his chance will he be too friendly with the squad ( have seen him drinking with them on a few occasions), this could make hard decisions difficult in the heat of battle. leaders should not socialise with footsoldiers

Having seen Grimley in action, he holds no pucnhes back no matter who you are, when it comes to the training field he calls a spade a spade. I would have 100% faith in his ability to play the right players.

Good luck to Joe, I've been disillusioned with some of your selections in the recent past but that not for now. You will always be the man that led us to the big one and no matter how many the Tyronies win you showed them the Road to Dublin!!!

we had been around Dublin for 20 years before Joe came on board.  He did show us how to win in Dublin however.

Best of luck with the time off to Joe Kernan. He has truly been a fantastic manager and his achievements will stand the test of time. He is GAA through and through and will not be too far away for too long. Like others I'd guess he won't be into managing other counties. Armagh and Cross seem to be what drives him.

Boo Hoo.  My heart is broken.  When I heard the news of Joe's retirement I burst into tears, tears of joy.  Eveybody talks about how great Armagh were to win the All-Ireland in 2002.  The fact is it was nothing but total and pure luck which gave every Armagh supporter the wrong impression in thinking that Armagh were actually a good football team.  Whoever takes over the new post should first in foremost start by getting rid of that thug Martin O'Rourke.  There is no room on a football field for people like him.  It's not as if he is a good footballer.

Before anyone rises to the bait of Boozehell I would recommend you read his previous posts.
He is clearly just here to try to start rows.
Seems very bitter.

sorry to see joe go but not surprised. really thought this could be a good year for armagh but it was not to be. a great gaa man and all the best for the future..

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 19, 2007, 09:34:30 AM
Well done Joe and thanks for bringing Cross and Armagh to a level that would not have been achieved otherwise.  I am probably the only poster here who has worked directly with Joe for a sustained period of time and believe me the man knows more about how to win games than anyone here.  All you buzzards as rrhf so rightly called you can fcuk away off now and leave the man and his family alone.  While there may not have been direct attacks on them Uladh with his "rumours" and "stories" always had a wee side story to every event and POG with his Blue and Gold Bridge glasses cannot see beyond Creggan Bridge. 

If you can show me any other football manager in recent times who has managed teams to 16 championship wins in just over 10 years then fair play to you. 

Take you time Joe and enjoy the sun, it's not like you don't deserve it.

BC, his championship medals aren't in question, but should he have been able to stay indefinitely when it appears that he knows no other way to play than Plan A?
Yes that was greatly successful in the past, but without Clarke it just doesn't work.  He didn't seem to recognise that fact this year, or if he did it appears that he closed his eys and hoped it would work, which I'm afraid just isn't good enough.  18 scores in 2 championship games tells its own story.  And as someone else has previously posted the scores we got in the league, the meagre return in the 2 championship games shouldn't have come as a surprise.

That is why I am glad that he is stepping down.

Good luck to Joe - everything he does usually turns out successful - he brought belief and steel to Armagh that they didn't have before.

Quote from: his holiness nb on July 19, 2007, 10:53:40 AM
Before anyone rises to the bait of Boozehell I would recommend you read his previous posts.
He is clearly just here to try to start rows.
Seems very bitter.

I'm sorry but if a player physically attacks a member of the oppositions management panel I don't think he should be allowed to be near a football field.  If you condone that then you are worse than he is.

QuoteI'm sorry but if a player physically attacks a member of the oppositions management panel I don't think he should be allowed to be near a football field

FFS - I'm no major admirer of Martin O'Rourke or Armagh for that matter (as several here will no doubt testify to!) but it was hardly an attack.

Joe I also am glad that he is stepping down for both his sake and the teams development.  I just feel the way he has been castigated in many quarters is wrong.  

If the stories about Paul Grimley are correct, then I, as a player, would have my concerns as well.  Unless the whole squad of 30 odd are behind the alleged move to road Joe, which I doubt they are, then it would suggest factions within the squad.  That is a bigger threat to success than anything.  

Joe should be left enjoy his break and look after other parts of his life instead of devoting the majority of his time to help fulfill other peoples dreams!

Yes 5 Times, Down have a proud history - it still does not disguise the fact that now and for the past number of years they have been totally shite. And no sign of improvement either. Cavan have a great c'ship history - not exactly world beaters these days are they though??? But you content yourself with your past glories if you must.

Quote from: Boozehell on July 19, 2007, 11:20:19 AM

Quote from: his holiness nb on July 19, 2007, 10:53:40 AM
Before anyone rises to the bait of Boozehell I would recommend you read his previous posts.
He is clearly just here to try to start rows.
Seems very bitter.

I'm sorry but if a player physically attacks a member of the oppositions management panel I don't think he should be allowed to be near a football field.  If you condone that then you are worse than he is.

See what I mean  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

As far as the management position goes I think that John Rafferty would be the wrong man for the job.  Speaking from personal experience from managing my own club I think that sometimes he was tactically niave.  Another tactical mistake Joe made was to bring back Diarmuid Marsden as he hadn't played county football for a year or two and then expect him to come back in and reporduce his same form.

interesting points by paddypastit about the national media. the story was on bbc at 8 last night but not on rte website until 8 this morning. they were more interested in mulvihill quitting. as for joe, well, one armagh fan said 'about time'. they weren't happy about being slagged off by joe after ballybofey, then there's the increasing number of people he fell out with when they dared question or cross him, and of course the least publicised but biggest error of all - taking off Geezer in the All Ire semi against tyrone... harte would have been hung for that

The time has defientely come for a change in direction, but JK will always be fondly remembered.

Of the potential candidates to fill his boots (Grimely, John Raff, Peter Raff & Peter McDonnell) none fill me with any sort of confidence, I've no idea who I'd like to see being the new manager tbh, an outsider might be the best bet but they can be very hit and miss.

As a Down fan I travelled from Kerry to the Carrickdale to see Armagh take the cup on tour in 2002, having already given my hard-earned ticket to a cousin in Armagh. It was history and great to witness it. This is about sport lads - keep Mido, Steve McLaren and all simialr over-hyped English soccer nonesense, especially persoanl and vulgar abuse, off these boards. Joe Kernan is a big man in every way and his success with Armagh will stand the test of time. Every sports fan should genuinely thank him for the enjoyment and wish him well.

Quote from: Leo on July 19, 2007, 01:00:25 PM
As a Down fan I travelled from Kerry to the Carrickdale to see Armagh take the cup on tour in 2002, having already given my hard-earned ticket to a cousin in Armagh. It was history and great to witness it. This is about sport lads - keep Mido, Steve McLaren and all simialr over-hyped English soccer nonesense, especially persoanl and vulgar abuse, off these boards. Joe Kernan is a big man in every way and his success with Armagh will stand the test of time. Every sports fan should genuinely thank him for the enjoyment and wish him well.

Fair play to ya Leo. I personnaly think it was time for him to step down but i think he done a great job with the players available to him, of course he made mistakes who doesn't but he done good and i have to wish him luck (not that he'll need it as he always seems to land on his feet).

when i heard the news last night i was shocked to hear that JK had resigned, i honestly didnt expect him to make a decision so quickly as he usually takes a couple months to himself speaks with the rest of the management team and makes it known wat he wants to do, but then was a huge sigh of relief came when i heard, now whether or not it was his own decision we will never no, Joe thanks for 2002 one of the greatest days in GAA history, but u let your own needs, and that of cross, to become more important than that of the county team, and i will and most the country will still be baffled by some of ur decisions geezer off in 2005, adapting a game to suit the players available this year, not introducing scoring half forwards, and playin stephen, aaron is brilliant county player, stephen is a decent club player.

Thanks for 2002 al the best for the future, the futures bright the future is orange                                                
Slan go fhoil
 

Admin I wonder could this page be archived.  In 10 years time when Armagh havent won an Ulster title would some of the so called supporters be calling for Big joe to give it another go.  Think of the Joy of Jarleth Burns lifting the Anglo Celt in 99.  Then think of the pain of the 8 years previously and think of the highs of the 8 years since.  I know Tyrone may well come to the same stage with Harte but I cant believe that some of the posters on here are only giving a little praise to a man who gave so much.  Its sad that the era is over as Tyrone and Armagh could have had many more great battles  We should have met in 2002 again; in 2004.   He'll always be a legend in Tyrone even if not in parts of his own county.   

Why should ye have met again in 2002 and 2004?

well sligo Mayo and Fermanagh spoiled the parties

Yeah whatever ye 'should' have met in 2006 too but Kerry and Laois spoiled the party.

I was sorry to hear Joe Kernan resigned. I think he's been a fantastic character for Crossmaglen, Armagh and the country as a whole. You have to admire men like Kernan and Ger Loughane and others who are able to lead their teams to the promised land. Health and happiness to him in his retirement.

Director of football at all levels in Armagh ? What you think - would be very good in this role -

Appoint him quickly before Dublin get their hands on him !!

I thought that's what he was already

good luck to joe with whatever he intends to do,cant see him back with any other county team.Some armagh fans are very shortsighted,joe delivered with his teams national titles and ulster titles that no other manager ever did,as supporters have we demanded to much of what is a team being rebuilt?I thank the man and his players for the enjoyment over the last few years although there was disappointments,which every team has the good times outweigh the bad and lets hope we arent going back to the barren days!

Best of luck for the future Joe.
I am a long time admirer of the footballer and more so the manager.
How he created a Crossmaglen dynasty that largely revolved around a sublime gameplan and strategy (had good players though I'll admit - apart from having no decent full forward  ;))
Joe then took the bigger challenge and heightened expectation to do likewise for Armagh.
No one really expected him to succeed. But he did.
Maybe he did underachieve. Its hard at the top though. Armagh were there for quite a number of years now.

Best of luck Joe and enjoy your few months off, as I hope to heck that Derry county board get out the cheque book and sign you up once we lose Mr Crozier.

I've had some great days in life.......
Getting married, having 3 great kids, passing exams, winning Club championships, hell I even won £20,000 in a draw about 25 years ago..........

But nothing compares to the feeling of standing on the pitch with my arms wrapped round my Da, remembering my dead Granda's and crying like 2 babies as Kieran McGeeney lifted Sam for us.........

Thanks Joe.....for the best day of my life.

Quote from: catchandkick on July 19, 2007, 01:54:27 PM
Yeah whatever ye 'should' have met in 2006 too but Kerry and Laois spoiled the party.

Dublin "should" have won the last 11 all Irelands.
But they kept getting beat.
This "should" craic is easy  ;)

Joe has been great for Armagh football and he will never be forgotten for being the leader of the 02 team that brought us Sam for the first time but he did a lot more than that, we won three consecutive Ulster titles and a National league title and since he tookover we have been one of the best teams in the country.

I was always a big fan of Joe but his continued use of his son when he was obviously not our best option tarnsihed somewhat his legacy and effectiveness as a leader and he left himself wide open to criticism for taking care of the cross contingent, again to the detrement of the County as a whole.

When I look back years from now at Joes tenure with Armagh I will look at it with great pride, Joe gave his all for his County as player and manager and he owes us nothing and we owe him everything. I will also acknowledge that it was time for him to move on given his selections and the way he treated some of the men that got him over the hump and from that perspective I will also acknowledge that as great as he was he also had flaws in tactical nuances and also man management. Joe, enjoy retirement Sir and take pride in what you have accomplished on the field as a player, on the sidelines of your club team and also in the hotbed of Croker when we played every great team 02 had to offer and we bate them all. ;D

Quote from: Passing_Interest on July 19, 2007, 02:37:02 PM
I've had some great days in life.......
Getting married, having 3 great kids, passing exams, winning Club championships, hell I even won £20,000 in a draw about 25 years ago..........

But nothing compares to the feeling of standing on the pitch with my arms wrapped round my Da, remembering my dead Granda's and crying like 2 babies as Kieran McGeeney lifted Sam for us.........

Thanks Joe.....for the best day of my life.

:D
Thats the stuff pi. I am sure the Mrs & kids would be delighted to know who comes first in life :D

Say what you see full back  ;)

I find it hard to see how any Armagh supporter could knock Joe Kernan after his service to that county as a player and manager.   Look at what Armagh achieved in his time as manager and compare it with any other decade in Armagh's history.  During his spell in charge, Armagh were consistently one of the top 3 teams in Ireland.    He had a great group of players, but got the best out of them.    Mine is just one of many counties that would be happy with half the success that Armagh have had for the last decade.  Joe Kernan was a great servant to Gaelic Football and this fact is acknowledged by fans all over the country.

Let's have a look at the contenders for the next Armagh manager. This is going to be a hard job, as the man who gets it will have to deal with high expectations and he will have to introduce a number of new players, but this if can be achived and the right man could take Armagh back to the top.
Not in any order
1. Grimley, seems like he had alot of influence when Armagh done well, 2003 2004 etc. Knows the players etc. But rumurs of him drinking with players etc doesn't fill me with the optimism I would like
2. J.Rafferty Was there this year but don;t know if he is the man for the job, tactially and would the players respect him and look up to him enough. Something tells me no.
3. P. Rafferty Done very well with the Under 21's. Knows the young players well, and would not e afraid to use him. Downside is that he has never been involved with county management. Have doubts,
4. McGeeney. Think of him more of a man at the minute to come in as an assistant manager. Think it is too soon for him to be the manager.

All of these men have good points, but I just have a slight gut feeling that none of them would be really the man for the job. Maybe they would I don't know.
What about somebody high profile from the outside. There would be no favourism, and the players would certainly look up to him.

What do you's think?  I haven't made up my mind yet!

Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 19, 2007, 12:46:46 AM

Quote from: PatDaly on July 18, 2007, 11:33:36 PM
. Down are currently the laughing stock of Ulster they are one of the only teams in Ulster to have never experienced playing in an All-Ireland quarter-final.

We specialise in All Ireland Finals, we`ve never lost one. Armagh cant say the same. By the way in case you didnt know, we`ve won 5, you may have guessed it from my name, I think you still only have one  :D How many finals have you lost?
Boasting about your record in quarter finals isnt really much to shout about, come back to me when you manage more than 1 in a row  :D

As for Big Joe. Great manager, who brought Armagh their only success, but when the band wagon came off the rails the orange brethern gave him a lot of stick. Most of the bandwagon that were there in 2002 and indeed 2003 have deserted the team as was evident in Ballybofey this year. Joe complained about that, but you all gave him stick about that too.
Joe will go down in Armagh history as the first manager to bring Sam back to Cross (and the rest of the Orchard County), maybe someday you will all realise that and give him the credit he deserves. As for your fairweather supporters, any county even Armagh are better off without them.

But we can barely remember the liast time

tevez peter mc donald has more credibilty than joh rafferty, he won an ulster with errigal ciaran and with this years  armagh under21s and if memory serves me right had o rourkes shot gone in the other side of the post against cork may have won an all ireland.
my gut feeling is geezer, marsden assisting  grimley

Here's a question - i konw he already has made a comment that he wouldn't manage antoher county team -
But as winter approaches and he starts looking to 2008...... ok    ? If Dublin ( who have a big chance of winning an All Ireland ) came knocking on his door ( no disrespect to Pillar ) ...... would he go ? Managing a team like Dublin would mean a smaller chance of meeting Armagh - you know what I mean ?

I don't now why people don't expect Joe to manage another county. He was interviewed for both the cavan and Louth Jobs unsuccessfully before he got the armagh gig for the second time.

He did indeed, in the early '90s as joint manager with Paddy Mo

5times  yes he was manager in 90 and 91

I'd like to thank Joe for helping deliver an All-Ireland for Armagh. It was one of the best times of my life and likewise for many others. It's 20 years also since Joe played his last game for Armagh against Derry in Clones. As a GAA man he has given a hell of a lot to football in Armagh and I like to wish him well and hope that his sons can emulate his achievements in the near future, hopefully winning an All-Ireland medal as players.

It's difficult to know whether 2002 would have been achieved without Kernan at the helm. He set the standard high for himself and the team and their achievements were unprecedented. He didn't just manage and motivate the team. He seen to it that the county raised the funds to support a competitive county team in Armagh.

The same people that ridicule him now would probably have been there in 2001 sniping about McAlinden and Canavan who also delivered success under a heavy burden of expectation.  

The bottom line is that all three men combined to carry Armagh football to an unprecedented level and for me their success will always overshadaow their failings and none of these men do not deserve the criticism that has been levelled at them.

Armagh could possibly have won more since 2002, but it wasn't for the want of trying and no matter what so many armchair experts will say, I do not believe that another manager could have got any more out of this team.

For Joe, his failings have been blamed on specific mistakes, but when you consider that his successor must not only avoid the same mistakes, but do every other aspect of the job as well as Joe, we'll have bother finding a manager as good. Nonetheless, whether he sees it or not, it certainly is the right time to go for himself and the team.

Joe Kernan is to be interviewed on Drive Time Sport on RTE Radio 1.
This programme has just commenced at 6.30pm and concludes at 7.00pm

He surly achieved alot with Armagh, he was nearly the best at the start with Armagh but in the last few years standard has dropped from Armagh, although bar this year very competitive they were not going to win Sam. Time they refreshed the panel.
Well Done Joe on a good career and all the best.

Well he certainly lost his way in the last few years, but thank you big Joe for the memorable day in 2002, you took us that extra step.

Quote from: Passing_Interest on July 19, 2007, 02:37:02 PM
I've had some great days in life.......
Getting married, having 3 great kids, passing exams, winning Club championships, hell I even won £20,000 in a draw about 25 years ago..........

But nothing compares to the feeling of standing on the pitch with my arms wrapped round my Da, remembering my dead Granda's and crying like 2 babies as Kieran McGeeney lifted Sam for us.........

Thanks Joe.....for the best day of my life.

Wel said PI - was gonna say something similar, but ye said it better.

In the end Joe was a victim of his own success - trophies means expectations are raised. Its not so long ago that Armagh were way off the pace
when it came to sitting at the top table. A barren spell mighn't be too far off again - but it'll be in spite of the massive amount of passion and effort that Joe and the lads put in.

And all this talk about not getting another all-ireland - nobody has a divine right to them. I'm just glad that I lived during a time when my county won
an All-Ireland - there's a lot of people won't get that chance.

Cheers Joe, and good luck with the golf handicap.

Eh passing interest, you put the All Ireland ahead of winning club championship there? You want to edit?

The eras of the two Brians and Joe have been by far the most successful in Armagh's history. We hadn't played in the championship in Croke Park since 1982 until the Brians brought us there in 1999. We've practically lived there since.

Armagh people should be forever grateful to Brian McAlinden, Brian Canavan and Joe Kernan for the outstanding service they have given to the County, both as players and management.

Its a sad day to see Joe depart. He brought us such joy in 2002 and it was such a great achievement to get us back to the final in 2003 despite so many injuries. It was also a tremendous achievement to keep this team at the top table for so long. How many supporters would have expected in 2002 that this team would still be challenging strongly for the All - Ireland in 2006? How many would have thought we'd be back in the final in 2003 and then win three Ulster titles in a row, including the first from the preliminary round in sixty years? From 2002 - 2006, Armagh only lost one Ulster championship match under Joe. This occurred at a time when Ulster was never more competitive.

Well done to the two Brians for starting it all off and for bringing such wonderful success and well done Joe for putting the icing on the cake and for keeping us at the top for so long. The three of you have given us so many great days out and have made Armagh a football county to be respected the length and breadth of Ireland.   

Good to learn from today's papers that the clubs in Armagh will be able to nominate a successor to Big Joe.

Quote from: armawman on July 20, 2007, 12:20:05 AM
How many supporters would have expected in 2002 that this team would still be challenging strongly for the All - Ireland in 2006?

Dont get carried away too much now.

Armagh 1-13 Kerry 3-15

Getting hammered by 8 points in a quarter final isnt exactly challenging strongly  ::)

Quote from: Bensars on July 20, 2007, 10:18:37 AM

Quote from: armawman on July 20, 2007, 12:20:05 AM
How many supporters would have expected in 2002 that this team would still be challenging strongly for the All - Ireland in 2006?

Dont get carried away too much now.

Armagh 1-13 Kerry 3-15

Getting hammered by 8 points in a quarter final isnt exactly challenging strongly  ::)

dont think the scoreline reflected the actual game
Kerry deserved to win, but there was not that much in it - clinical finishing and a bit of luck either way to both sides was the diff imo

Heard Joe on Newstalk and the thing that struck me was the margins,. from the semi in 99 ,the draw in 2000 (last minute Maurice Fitz point ) Galways late point in 2001 .Eoin Brosnans miss in 2002 . Conner Gormley tackle in 2003 and then losing 2 championship games in 2007 by a point .He was right to quote "Any Given Sunday " it is about the Inches . Best of luck to him in the  future I used to enjoy his articles in the Star circa 2000 he would make a good tv pundit

Ronán Mc Sherry's piece in today's Gaelic Life (and we're not innocent either, the opulence of success, and we'd accuse the Kingdom!):


Sure we're all spoilt!

What's got into us all? While Sligo folk celebrate with abandon, Tyrone folk are less than enamoured with winning Ulster

I was enjoying a coffee with a member of the Tyrone minor management team on Monday as he glowed in the warmth of Sunday's success. At the next table an elderly couple supped tea and the old man who obviously overheard our musings informed us he had been to Clones the previous day. "What did you think?" says I, referring to the endeavours of the Tyrone senior team. "Ah now," he replied, "they weren't tarra" before complaining about the ticket price and his bald head getting a touch of the sun. I was startled to hear such a lack of insight from one with so many years on the clock. He had lived in a time when winning the Anglo Celt Cup sparked mass celebrations across the county with players being carried shoulder high through towns and villages accompanied by the local accordion band. His attitude is not unique.

Contrast Grumpy Old Git with Reggie McNulty of Sligo featured on last week's 'Road To Croker' on RTE 2. The bould Reggie has the grand title of 'Kit Manager' for the newly crowned Connacht champions. His reaction when the All Blacks won the provincial title for the first time since 1975 was a joy to behold. He lay prostrate on the ground with his fists clenched before finally getting to his feet and whimpering through his tears, "I'm delighted-I'm delighted."

Presenter Des Cahill remarked, "That brings the tears to your eyes." Now it is unlikely Tyrone or Armagh supporters would react in a similar fashion with their recent years of success, nor should they be expected to, but it does no harm to remember from whence we came and cultivate an attitude of gratitude. Absence sure makes the heart grow fonder and a win for Monaghan on Sunday would have unleashed celebrations more Reggie than senior citizen in the coffee shop. The Oriel county was festooned with flags and banners while their supporters were animated with unbridled passion when their heroes looked like overturning the Red Hand in the dying minutes.

Meanwhile barely a flag flew across the land of O'Neill. It is not so long ago Tyrone and Armagh were on the same plateau as the Monaghans and Sligos of this world, rarely winning a provincial title and light years away from All-Ireland glory. The Gaels of those counties would give up their pensions for a taste of what the Orchard and O'Neill clans have experienced since the turn of the century. It is hard to stomach begrudgery when it comes from within rather than from jealous rivals. The spoilt child's face lights up the first time Daddy brings home sweets and then expects it as of right all the time, huffing when he arrives back empty-handed. The only thing worse than a spoilt child is a spoilt adult. Some of the comments regarding the apparent conclusion of 'Armagh - the Glory Years' have been less than complimentary.

Among the begrudgers have been letters to provincial newspapers and messages on websites from their own supporters/critics, convinced the last nine years were somehow a time of under-achievement and failure. Since 1999 the Orange have won as many Ulster titles as they did in the previous 100 years, two years ago they secured their first ever National League and in September 2002 an Armagh captain lifted the Sam Maguire Cup for the first time. My abiding memory of the television images is a supporter with his arms outstretched to the Heavens in a pose captured by Tim Robbins as he stands knee high in water in the pouring rain after tunneling through four hundred yards of foul smelling shit to freedom from Shawshank prison. Redemption!

Armagh people should be erecting a statue to Joe Kernan and putting up plaques to those boys, including the two Brians, for what they have achieved. So too should Tyrone followers for their managers and players, whatever the future holds. They have taken us on a journey we hardly dared to dream. It won't last forever. These are our Glory Years. We should savour every moment of this era, get to as many games as possible and keep all the videos to show the next generation. Everything comes to an end, except of course a cat's tail which comes to a point.

Change is the beauty of sport. Joe Louis told how it was often said to him. "You're unbeatable Joe, you're unbeatable." The Brown Bomber would reply, "I know one man will beat me, Father Time." He beat the great Galway team of the sixties, Kerry and Dublin in the seventies and eighties, Down and Derry in the nineties and Tyrone's day will come too.

The story is told of Brendan Behan riding the high stool in a Dublin pub while ignoring the overtures from a half cut Jackeen. Says he to the playwright, "You bollox ye   Behan, I remember when you hadn't an arse in your trousers." Behan turned, looked him in the eye and said, "Not half as well as I do." It is not long ago Armagh and Tyrone hadn't an arse in their trousers and some of their supporters seem to have forgotten it already.

Great piece

Enda McNulty was interviewed by Brian Carthy on the radio this evening, he suggested that he was suprised that Joe left, as that wasn't the impression given in the dressing room immediately after the game.

I had to do stats for an article lately on Armagh since 1999 and what was remarkable was how many games Armagh in this period lost when ahead with 15 mins left and won when behind at around the same period.

v Kerry in 2000, they had the game in the bag. I know he's not Armagh's favourite journo but after that replay Sweeney wrote: And Armagh repeated a grave tactical error which has bedevilled them in the past. This fallacy was to believe that you can defend a lead in a game of gaelic football, that getting as many men as possible behind the ball will see you through. But, had they not clammed up after John McEntee's point at the start of the second half put them five clear, they would probably have won the game in normal-time and we would have been denied those brave extra-time comebacks which gave the young team such nobility in defeat. (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2000/09/04/current/spage_0.htm)

2001: They hit the lead for the first time v Tyrone 1-8 to 1-6 early in the second half (scoring 1-2 in the first 3 minutes) but couldn't hold out and were overturned by 5. Then v Galway, we witnessed the other side of the coin. Galway lead 12-5 and we then get to see what made this Armagh team tick.

2002: In the first game v Tyrone they lead 1-11 to 0-10 with 20 mins to go and almost throw the game away. In the replay they are level with 7 mins left and Armagh edge Tyrone. The matches v Sligo and Dublin again mirror this trend. Armagh lead Sligo by 6 with 20 minutes left and fold, hanging on for a draw. Against Dublin, Dublin lead by two with 9 minutes left, Armagh reel off 3 points. In the final, Kerry lead by 4 with 17 mins left....

2003: Probably the one year when Armagh didn't push on from a scenario made for them - 4 down to Tyrone at Half time, 3 with 10 mins left.

2004: Armagh spend most of the 2nd half a point ahead of Fermanagh, but lose out.

2005: Armagh spend most of the two Ulster Final games behind, but still win the title. In the semi final, they hit the front by 2 points  with 7 mins left, concede 3.

2006: Armagh lead Kerry by 4 after 33 mins. Lose out. Earlier they led Monaghan by 4 with 15 mins remaining - hold on for a draw. v Fermanagh and the Erne men spent the majority of the second half 2/3 points ahead - Armagh force a draw.

2007:  v Donegal and Armagh spend most of the 2nd half a goal ahead of Donegal - lose the game. v Derry and Armagh lead by 2 early in the 2nd half - lose the game.

What does the above tell you about Kernan's tenure? Absolutely nothing.

Quote from: ONeill on July 20, 2007, 10:48:50 PM
I had to do stats for an article lately on Armagh since 1999 and what was remarkable was how many games Armagh in this period lost when ahead with 15 mins left and won when behind at around the same period.

Good man, if there could be any criticism levelled against him, and in the overall scheme it's a minor one (though perhaps less so with ourselves  ;)), it's that the offensive option was abandoned too readily, sometimes much to readily, at times. It comes back to the piece about how Armagh just didn't score enough, which ties in with Joe's primarily defensive mindset. Having said that, someone with a less defensive mindset in the first instance, wouldn't have reached the Holy Grail, and Joe's problem, ultimately, was disengaging from that, even when the monumental psychological barrier of the first All-Ireland was breached.

Fair play Joe and best of luck in the future. I have the utmost respect for the man. Its all very well arguing about the possibility of a second or third All Ireland but there's a hell of a chance that without Joe, number one might never have arrived. He revitalised Armagh after the defeats of 00 and 01 and pushed the team on to fulfill its potential. Yes there were mistakes, but infalibility is beyond any manager. Nobody before had more success with Crossmaglen, nobody before had more success with armagh. We could be a long time waiting until anybody does in the future. Without question, Armagh football is much richer for having had Joe Kernan connected with it.

Cross got their start with Joe, but have come back some years later to win the AI again with a mixture of older guys and some new players who were U-14s when Joe managed Cross. Here's hoping Armagh can do likewise.

Read the Indo and the IN last night - he could tell some tales - what about a book Joe ?

One other stat which I heard during the week; under Joe's tenure Armagh won 29 championship matches from 36 played, ie >80%! Not sure what this indicates but I wouldn't mind more of the same.

The book is already well on the way... ghost written by Peter Makem

I think Joes own words it takes a great team to win 2 all irelands are still as relevant today as they were in 2003 when he said it.  With Joe an 80 % record of success in championship games was an incredible managerial achievement.  Joe already had all Irelands with Cross in the bag - probably the hardest type of ALL Ireland medal to win, but he wanted his Armagh team to achieve like him.  The reality is that this fine Armagh team never made Joe's so called "great" bracket does not detract from Joe Kernan.  If Mayo do not win an All Ireland under John O Mahony it says more about the Mayo team than it does Johnno - he already is a "great" Manager.  In the same way whilst the Armagh team won one - that was beyond their wildest dreams and unrealistic supporter expectations began to set in very quickly.  They won Ulster after Ulster championships in an era when Ulster championships became the second prize - it was a realistic goal for Armagh during this period.  Check out the pitch invasion by Tyrone fans last week to see where our priorities lie.  Compare that to the pitch invasion in 2005 when Armagh defeated Tyrone.  My final word on this is that in Tyrone we respect Greatness and we respect the achievements of Crossmaglen and Joe Kernan - phenomenal does not do it justice.  Greatness is bestowed on them all.  No one will ever forget what this Armagh team achieved in Ulster - the best Ulster championship run I ever witnessed.  By Joes standards the team feel short, and thery may feel they have underachieved.  Perhaps Mc Geeney knows more than Joe Kernan, he ceratinly should have learned a lot from him but to mention him as a potential replacement at this stage is hardly the way forward for Armagh football.  Mc Geeney as captain was part of the Kernan team but he was also a member of the team that fell short ie that couldnt do the job on the field - when he was replaced as captain if rumours are to be believed he didnt communicate with the manager.  Does this sound like management potential, I ask Armagh fans today?         

Quote from: rrhf on July 21, 2007, 11:10:09 AM
My final word on this is...      

Imagine my disappointment. we're hanging on every word too.

Quote from: rrhf on July 21, 2007, 11:10:09 AM
in Tyrone we respect Greatness

good of you to speak for the masses. did the survey take long?

I see with the postponement of tomorrow's Hurling Quarter Finals, RTE 2's Sunday Game will feature a review of the Joe Years,at 9.30pm. Should be well worth watching, surely Spillane will have to say something good?

Quote from: T Fearon on July 21, 2007, 11:34:59 AM
I see with the postponement of tomorrow's Hurling Quarter Finals, RTE 2's Sunday Game will feature a review of the Joe Years,at 9.30pm. Should be well worth watching, surely Spillane will have to say something good?

In any eulogies about large Joe surely Burger King should get a mention........

Quote from: SeanSouth on July 21, 2007, 11:37:35 AM

Quote from: T Fearon on July 21, 2007, 11:34:59 AM
I see with the postponement of tomorrow's Hurling Quarter Finals, RTE 2's Sunday Game will feature a review of the Joe Years,at 9.30pm. Should be well worth watching, surely Spillane will have to say something good?

In any eulogies about large Joe surely Burger King should get a mention........

That's a good one, haven't heard that in about five minutes.

rrhf

Quote
Check out the pitch invasion by Tyrone fans last week to see where our priorities lie.  Compare that to the pitch invasion in 2005 when Armagh defeated Tyrone.

Yeah because that's the same thing.   ::)

Quote from: T Fearon on July 21, 2007, 11:34:59 AM
I see with the postponement of tomorrow's Hurling Quarter Finals, RTE 2's Sunday Game will feature a review of the Joe Years,at 9.30pm. Should be well worth watching, surely Spillane will have to say something good?

Anything good Spudane will have to say about Joe will be behind gritted teeth, sure wasn't it Joes fault Ulster Football started to make the Kingdom look less than ordinary, at times.

Just like to add my thanks to Big Joe for all that he achieved and giving us days that will live with us forever!!  8)  Respect Joe! A long and healthy retirement is due!!

From listening to the jungle drums though, it does appear that this was the best time for Joe to drop down, and I am glad he himself has made that decision.

Joe has pointed out that he has left Armagh in a very healthy state, with a lot of young talent coming through. I hope in September 2008 I am in a position to tell Big Joe, just as I did Brian McAlinden in 2002, that a lot of the credit for our latest All Ireland win is down to him.

That said, if he starts muttering under his breath, I will be sure to listen intently!!** 

** An in joke between Brian McAlinden, Shane O'Neill and myself!   ;) 

There was an article in the Independent the other day in which it said that joe ranked on the top 5 best managers EVER ? I know he was good and admire him a lot but in the top 5 ?? Surely not ?

QuoteBig Joe is undoubtedly the greatest Armagh manager ever, but he is nowhere near the top 5. He would hardly make the top 5 in Ulster. Pete McGrath, Mickey Harte, Eamon Coleman, Brian McEniff, Uladh  Wink Well Uladh lives in a dram world where 1 success is better than 5

Joe has 4 All-Irelands of his own, as well as a shed-load of Ulster Titles at both Club and County level. 

It appears that there was actually football played in Armagh before 2002!

Quote from: orangeman on July 21, 2007, 09:12:06 PM
There was an article in the Independent the other day in which it said that joe ranked on the top 5 best managers EVER ? I know he was good and admire him a lot but in the top 5 ?? Surely not ?

For his achievements at county, provincial and National club as well as provincial and national county, he has very few equals. Lets just say there is very little he hasn't won. Joe Kernan and Mickey Harte are right up there with the best in terms of achievement.

Did Kernan ever manage Armagh underage?

I don't think he ever has but t fearon may be able to correct me

No he did manage armagh underage

Quote from: corn02 on July 19, 2007, 07:59:09 PM
Eh passing interest, you put the All Ireland ahead of winning club championship there? You want to edit?

Afraid not Corn.......not to diminish the joy at winning County Finals, but 2002 still tops the lot for me.

I think the debate which inevitably follows a retirement either as a manager or a player is clouded by recent achievements- to say someone was in the top 5 managers or the in the best 15 players ever is largely irrelevant - these things really can't be judged too well - suffice to say that Joe by virtue of the All Ireland win was the most successful manager ever !

Again, like the vast majority of the Armagh posters, I would like to thank Joe for all that he has done for Armagh football. No other Armagh manager ever got close to winning an All-Ireland, Joe won four, that says it all! 

As regards him managing another county I just can't see it.  He is obviously a big family man and I just can't see him leading another county out against Armagh with any of his sons playing in the orange jersey.

Very strong rumours that Art McCrory is being touted as the new Armagh manager:

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1475000/images/_1475625_artmcrory_300.jpg)

I definitely could not see Armagh signing up Art or indeed Art going to Armagh - won't happen !

QuoteVery strong rumours that Art McCrory is being touted as the new Armagh manager:

O'Neill, please never suggest that even in a joke!

The 2 raffertys (John and Peter) have benn already spoken to by the county board

Any truth to the rumour that Paidi is being lined up??

Absolutely none

QuoteThe 2 raffertys (John and Peter) have benn already spoken to by the county board

If this is true, then I am very disappointed as I was led to believe that nominations would be sought from clubs within the county.

AFAIK, Peter Rafferty had already indicated he wouldnt be putting himself forward for the job

Have heard lately that Peter isn't the slightest bit interested at the minute anyway.

Tell me this.....why is John Rafferty even being considered as the next Armagh manager?  What is his track record apart from St. Gall's glorious 'failure' in the Club Final a couple of years ago? 

and they say nobody listens to the radio! joes short rte radio phone in interview was the final nail in his managerial coffin. the feeling was that he was going to gracefully having already said he was quitting last year the county board were just waiting on his cheerio. when he talked on national airwaves about staying on and young players coming through etc.. enough was enough he was told in no uncertain terms he was going.
  following a series of fallouts that have nothing to do with football joes position was completely unworkable and frankly the county board are glad to see the back of him. you can bet your bottom dollar that a new fianicial structure for funding the county team will be in place following the appointment of the new management.
  as for joes legacy i will remember him as being the manager without a plan B.
btw i retract my statement that nobody on the county board had the balls to put an end to this farce.

Quotefollowing a series of fallouts that have nothing to do with football joes position was completely unworkable and frankly the county board are glad to see the back of him

Lawnseed - have you paved the way for Paul Grimley to return as Joe's successor?

i see where you think im coming from, but you have to wonder how a certain player and winner of a couple of mom awards was left on the bench as we crashed out of the championship. that aside it is well known that as result of a number of side deals that went wrong there is more than a little mistrust in the armagh camp atm. to many men trying to trying to milk the golden cow that a bit of sucess brings. personally i dont have any preferance who manages the armagh team as long as they are competitant and my club doesnt have to pay for it. e.g try rostrevor instead of la manga, use gerry moley instead of two chambers coaches wee things like that.   

Quotepersonally i dont have any preferance who manages the armagh team as long as they are competitant 

and my club doesnt have to pay for it. e.g try rostrevor instead of la manga, use gerry moley instead of two chambers coaches wee things like that.

Most intercounty managers will be competent to some degree, I'd prefer to use the term successful - Paul Grimley will satisfy both.

With regard to La Manga etc - Armagh set a new benchmark it doing it right off the pitch in order to help get it right on the pitch. I would be disappointed if this were allowed to slip. I would acknowledge that some clubs are better placed financially than others to support this but I think most clubs are happy to contribute if it is seen to bring about success at the highest level. It would be more appreciated though if clubs could decide themselves what constitutes a reasonable contribution.

Armagh's next manager. This would be a great choice if we could somehow manage to get him.

(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa156/patdaly_2007/colmorourke.jpg)(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa156/patdaly_2007/ColmORourke-1.jpg)

I think Big Colm is happy enough where he is - I'd say Meath would be the only job that would have any appeal for him.

The King is gone, long live the King! It is all very good to say that Joe had no plan B, this comment will not look so smart when subsequent managers are trying plan C and D without success. Armagh were always a good match for their opposition in the last 5 years and while you can point to particular issues, these only became important because we were only a point behind, there is no mention of the good decision that ensured that we could match the opposition year in year out.

I would like to thank Joe for all that he has done for Armagh football so far. I hope and believe that his contribution isn't ended.I agree with Brokencrossbar that the time is right for Joe to go and believe that Joe knows this too. I agree with Tony Fearon that Paul Grimley would be the wrong choice as a replacement.
Pintsofguinness, I see that you were waiting on a reply from me to an earlier question on another thread. I haven't been available since. If you think that I was going to sit through six months of your posts!!!!!!! I also note that you chose to ignore Brokencrossbar's post on this thread. A lot of posters on this site have defended  comments they have made by stating that they are on a discussion board and are only discussing a topic, but I find that once a serious attempt is made to debate the issues, some of the most outspoken posters on this site melt away!
In conclusion, I can remember Fr Hegarty springing retirement on 'Big Joe'.At the time most Armagh supporters weren't too concerned. We all found just how much Joe was missed within a couple of years. I don't think that this is the case now, but I hope history does not rear up and kick us in the teeth! 

QuotePintsofguinness, I see that you were waiting on a reply from me to an earlier question on another thread. I haven't been available since. If you think that I was going to sit through six months of your posts!!!!!!! I also note that you chose to ignore Brokencrossbar's post on this thread. A lot of posters on this site have defended  comments they have made by stating that they are on a discussion board and are only discussing a topic, but I find that once a serious attempt is made to debate the issues, some of the most outspoken posters on this site melt away!

I think you'll find I answered BC on another thread (Uladh had expressed a view to keep debates off this thread and allow it for tributes to Joe - I agreed). Melt away?  I have never once deliberately walked away from a debate/discussion/row I'm in!  You accused me of that on another thread and when I pointed out to you that it was you that actually walked away you said you'd be back with evidence of your claims against me and now you're saying you won't because you won't look through my posts.  It's very easy to make claims against someone and when asked to back it up you say you're not going to waste your time. 
You and a few others have accused me of having some sort of vendetta against "the kernan family" and never once have any of you showed me anything I said that a large proportion of armagh wouldn't agree with! Back up your allegations or withdraw them!

Will Mc Ivor be offered the job ? Has he already been offered the job ?

I will not be withdrawing anything! I'm not alone in getting the impression that you have an axe to grind and have been totally unfair to the Kernan familly.

I think Pints views on Stephen have been justified BigPaul, you are not Paul Kernan by any chance.?  :P

Mc Ivor doesn't want the Armagh job or any other job for that matter.

Quote from: bigpaul on July 30, 2007, 10:37:54 PM
I will not be withdrawing anything! I'm not alone in getting the impression that you have an axe to grind and have been totally unfair to the Kernan familly.

How am I being unfair Paul?
I made a statement that Joe should go - most of armagh agree with me
I made a statement that Stephen should not be on the county team - most of armagh agree with me
You have not been able to show me any other comment I've made to back up your allegations!
I think you're the one with the axe to grind!

No offence Pints but with that sort of backing and support you could be the man to land this job!!!! In fact you may well have the ability to unite North and South Armagh.  Well done.

QuoteNo offence Pints but with that sort of backing and support you could be the man to land this job!!!! In fact you may well have the ability to unite North and South Armagh.  Well done.

::)

Pints - you seem to be against Joe ok but you probably have your reasons alright - I thought Stephen Kernan wasn't too bad of a forward - he wasn't the worst against Derry - and Joe's record is a good one - the best manager EVER in Armagh ? Do you think he was Armagh's best ever ?

QuoteDo you think he was Armagh's best ever ?

Yes

Ok - so it's just a case that you think that all managers have a life span and there is a time to go ?
What about my point about Kernan and his decent performance against Derry ?

The whole Kernan thing seems to be a big issue in Armagh - is this because of the whole family thing ?

QuoteOk - so it's just a case that you think that all managers have a life span and there is a time to go ?

Yes

QuoteThe whole Kernan thing seems to be a big issue in Armagh - is this because of the whole family thing ?

As far as I'm concerned a lot of my problems with Joe was that he showed a lot of bias either towards or against certain clubs and players, he allowed some personal stuff get in the way of managing the team and putting out the best 15. 
He took a lot of players on to the panel and have never given them a real chance yet his sons have got chance after chance.  Aaron made good use of his chances but Stephen didn't and yet became a championship starter when he can't nail down a starting place with his own club.  It's a pity that Joe did not show the belief and patience with some of the more talented players in the county as he did with his own sons. 

Re stephen kernan - I said it at the time, one decent half of football after all the games he's played in does not justify his selection. 

Who do you think he showed bias against  - which clubs and what footballers in particular ?

Did anyone see the unbelivably stupid letter in the Examiner this week? It said Joe should be allowed to stay on as long as he wanted. 2002 was 5 years ago, it is amazing that some people think that if you win something you are infalliable for life.

Quote from: corn02 on July 31, 2007, 07:52:02 PM
Did anyone see the unbelivably stupid letter in the Examiner this week? It said Joe should be allowed to stay on as long as he wanted. 2002 was 5 years ago, it is amazing that some people think that if you win something you are infalliable for life.

It was probably bigpaul.

QuoteWho do you think he showed bias against  - which clubs and what footballers in particular ?

Bias against any of crossmaglen's neighbouring clubs.  Liam O'Hare in cullyhanna, twice the player his club mate Mal Mackin is but never given a real chance while Mackin is constantly messing up, why is that?  Dromintee boys will tell you he doesn't like them or the O'Rourkes, was it last year Martin O'Rourke was constantly taken off despite being one of the better players on the field?  Just a few weeks ago we were talking in the armagh club thread about a player who showed great potential, called up to the panel, broke his leg and was dropped, never to be given another chance.  That's one example, is that the way to build a team?
This years McKenna cup panel was a joke.  I know for a fact there are better players in my own club (I'm not saying they're county players) better than some of those on the panel and they were ignored, why?  We're Joe's neighbouring club?  And if there are better players in my club, I'd be confident there's better in other clubs who are ignored. 

I have to say that I have been a fan of Joe's until this year and unlike Pints I think Stephen Kernan deserved to be in the team for the Derry game, but I have never agreed with Joe's man management.  When you look at how he treated the likes of Nippy Swift, Andrew McCann, Aidan O Rourke and even Shane Smyth it can appear that Joe did indeed have a bias.

But lads - every manager whether they'resuccessful or not stand accused of bring biased - they can only play 15 - there are a lot of people who would say the same thing on other counties - i.e that the manager is biased. Brian Cody Kilkenny manager is constantly being slated for not picking palyers, dropping them etc etc. Big Joe as the same - he could only play 15. Somebody was bound to be unhappy.

Aidan O'Rourke flattened sk during a bout of handbags in the 2005 armagh club final between cross and dromintee. For weeks after the kernan boys were mouthing to everyone that it was the end of o'rourke with armagh. There was a major kick up with players when joe was for leaving him off the county panel and he had to relent. O'Rourke went from a championship starter in 2005 to not playing a single game in 2006, culminating in Grimley and joe rowing along the line against kerry when joe refused to bring o'rourke on despite paul galvin and sean o'sullivan roasting ak and paul duffy.

TYP, Cross were playing the Ogs in Keady and were in big trouble with a few minutes to go. SK went down injured (cramp I think) and John Mc shouted across to the trainer to "take him off, he's useless anyway".  John Mc was allowed to cool on the bench for a long time after that.

That's the reason John Mac wasn't playing against Fermanagh in the All-Ireland Quarter-Final in 2004 (think it was that game), because he said Stephen was useless. I know Joe and in fairness he shouldn't have let personal feelings interfere with professional duties & in truth that's why Armagh lost that game.

Joe would in no way let family influences stand in the way of either Cross or Armagh - that story about John Mc being sent to the bench is a lie.

Quote from: orangeman on November 22, 2007, 05:58:28 PM
Joe would in no way let family influences stand in the way of either Cross or Armagh - that story about John Mc being sent to the bench is a lie.

It is not, it's spot on.

I didn't start it all again.

Definitely that story about John Mc is a lie - Joe never did this and wouldn't do it either.

what makes you so sure?

Absolute truth. you should also ask aidan o'rourke where big joe would let family influences stand in the way of armagh

Come on lads - one all Ireland and a load of Ulsters and all you can say is that Joe put his family first ????????? That's ridiculous.
And now you're bringing Aidan O'Rourke into it - what's it got to do with him ?

Quote from: Aghdavoyle on November 23, 2007, 10:40:01 AM

Absolute truth. you should also ask aidan o'rourke where big joe would let family influences stand in the way of armagh

In fairness Aidan O Rourke has been off county standard since 2003. Overweight, too slow for the level required. Dooher cleaned him everytime they met.

That's what I would have thought as well - Aidan is a good player but didn't have the necessary fitness levels.

Read my post on the previous page orangeman. it is a well known fact in armagh, as is joe's refusal to bring him on in 2006 when galvin and sean o'sullivan were roasting the half back line despite continual pleading from grimley. MIB O'Rourke marked dooher in the 05 trilogy and he had next to no impact on the three games.

QuoteMIB O'Rourke marked dooher in the 05 trilogy and he had next to no impact on the three games.

I know, O'Rourke was anonymous. Where was the trademark attacking forays and accurate passing to the FF that Armagh enjoyed in 2002? Answer is, he hadn't the legs for it.

Quotesean o'sullivan were roasting the half back line despite continual pleading from grimley

Are you seriously suggesting O'Rourke could have lived with Sean O Sullivans pace or matched Galvins physicality ?

I don't know if Aghdavoyle knows about this but apparently the way Kernan phoned Aidan O Rourke to tell him his services were no longer required was a disgrace. Words like "Has been" were said down the phone, surley thats no way to talk to a man who has give so much to the county.

Kernan was good in his own way but his man management skills are very poor and i believe he cost us at least one more all-ireland. I agree with Pints on his son Stephen, the fella is an above average club player and thats it Aaron on the other hand is a quality player no doubt about that but Joe has better players in the county who he will not give a chance too.

QuoteWords like "Has been" were said down the phone

An insensitive approach no doubt, but the truth all the same.

Quote from: illdecide on November 23, 2007, 11:02:38 AM
I don't know if Aghdavoyle knows about this but apparently the way Kernan phoned Aidan O Rourke to tell him his services were no longer required was a disgrace. Words like "Has been" were said down the phone, surley thats no way to talk to a man who has give so much to the county.

Kernan was good in his own way but his man management skills are very poor and i believe he cost us at least one more all-ireland. I agree with Pints on his son Stephen, the fella is an above average club player and thats it Aaron on the other hand is a quality player no doubt about that but Joe has better players in the county who he will not give a chance too.

Is he still manager?

No sense revisiting old arguments lads. dooher was marked out of those three armagh tyrone games in 05 though!

Quote from: spiritof91and94 on November 23, 2007, 11:07:04 AM

Quote from: illdecide on November 23, 2007, 11:02:38 AM
I don't know if Aghdavoyle knows about this but apparently the way Kernan phoned Aidan O Rourke to tell him his services were no longer required was a disgrace. Words like "Has been" were said down the phone, surley thats no way to talk to a man who has give so much to the county.

Kernan was good in his own way but his man management skills are very poor and i believe he cost us at least one more all-ireland. I agree with Pints on his son Stephen, the fella is an above average club player and thats it Aaron on the other hand is a quality player no doubt about that but Joe has better players in the county who he will not give a chance too.

Is he still manager?

Sorry about my spelling ;) i meant it in past tense you know the score :D

Dooher was outstanding in 2005 - what ganes were you's at ?
Joe gave everything ot Armagh, got little back in return except criticism as usual. Managers can't win !

If Stephen Kernan is an above average club player, surely by implication ,that means he' s county standard ?

Man in Black is obviosly a WUM.

Orangeman the McEntee incident is a well known fact.

Corn 02 - is that why the Mc Entees retired ? I have been watching them all year and they have been outstanding for Cross - still well fit to play for Armagh in my opinion. Might they go back to Armagh now that Mc Donnell has come in ?

Quote from: orangeman on November 23, 2007, 12:18:52 PM
If Stephen Kernan is an above average club player, surely by implication ,that means he' s county standard ?

He is not an above average club player. he is an average club player.

No idea Orangeman, I would hope not.

Quote from: orangeman on November 25, 2007, 10:43:18 AM
Corn 02 - is that why the Mc Entees retired ? I have been watching them all year and they have been outstanding for Cross - still well fit to play for Armagh in my opinion. Might they go back to Armagh now that Mc Donnell has come in ?

surely any manager would welcome them back?

Well let us not forget that there is a big difference between club and county level and they were not regular starters in the end. I am also sure they are happy playing club football and who can blame them?

Club football is especially appealing when you are playing for Cross. However if the McEntee's came to me as an Armagh manager and said they really wanted to make a go of the county team, I'd be glad to have them. 

the mc entees will never come back, they are havin a great year with cross cus they are injury free for a change, maybe thats because of less demand on the body now they only playin club football. two great players, they make a lot of other players look like wee boys, would love to hear they will return to county but it will not happen.
john mac also wants to be the first captain to lift two club all irelands

I'd be playing the Mc Entees as well !

Sugar coated, but a good read from yesterdays Tribune.


NO ORDINARY JOE
Kieran Shannon

I LOVED it. I loved it. There'd be times on big match days on the bus where you'd be saying 'Why the hell do I put myself through this?' but once you got into that dressing room and were on the line, there's nowhere else you'd want to be. When I was a young fella I could have gone to Australia. Dad died when I was 11 and every year Mum would go out to my sisters who were doing awful well out there. Right up 'til I was 21 they'd beg me to go out there. There was nothing here. I had no work after school, I wasn't going steady with anybody; there was no Patricia at the time. I'd say it was a toss of a coin.

Then I said 'If I go I might like it and if I like it I mightn't come back. To hell with it, football means more to me.'

It was the best decision I ever made."

Joe Kernan ushers you into his 'office' which, he laughs, must be "the most luxurious office in the country". On the wall is a huge new TV screen which he zaps on around mid-morning to watch home improvement shows. He likes DIY shows . . . this 'office', otherwise known as the Kernan living room, was once a pub he used run years and years ago . . . and he likes the idea of watching them, here at midday, at his leisure, while next door in the real office Joe Kernan & Sons ticks over without him.

"Up to three years ago myself and Patricia ran that wee show in there on our own, " he says from the comfort of his sofa. "I look back and I don't know how we got through it. People say 'Your business didn't suffer' [with all the football]. Feckin' sure it suffered, because I couldn't do the job properly." But now he has the bodies and sons to delegate. Aaron and Olivia Haughey look after the estate agency, with Stephen, along with Brian Mallon, managing the mortgage and broker end of it.

He's keeping busy though. The other week he wrote to every county board secretary in Ireland, telling them of his new property business venture in the Spanish resort of Costa Blanca.

Kernan bought a villa there nearly 10 years ago where he befriended a Westmeath man called Bernie Comaskey, and in recent months the pair decided to team up together. "I'm going to be spending a bit of time out there next year, showing Irish people some property. You hear people buying overseas not knowing what they're dealing with, and they end up losing a lot of money. I'm dealing with a reputable company who know the scene, and if you buy a house, £1,500 to £3,000 of the commission goes as a fundraiser to a club or county team.

I'm looking forward to it. It's something new to regenerate the energy into."

For there's been a vacuum there. A couple of weeks after announcing his resignation as Armagh manager, Kernan experienced the most disoriented sensation, one that felt "funny" and one that felt "really bad". For the previous few days he had been on some kind of high from all the goodwill extended to him, but then reality crashed.

"For 12 years between Cross and Armagh, I'm up here, my mind flying, phone hopping, thinking only football. Like, I never went anywhere unless I had a notepad with me. All of a sudden the adrenalin stops and it's the strangest thing."

In truth, nothing will replace it. Nothing can. But if life without football is going to be a bit strange for Joe, then life without Joe is going to be a bit surreal for football too.

THE GAME HE DREAMT UP

He's the godfather of the modern game. Maybe you didn't look at it or him that way, but it's true.

The blanket defence. The target man (for before Kieran Donaghy there was Ronan Clarke, and before Ronan Clarke there was Gavin Cummiskey with Cross). Terms like 'inches', 'breaking ball', 'work-rate', 'training camps' had been barely coined before the advent of Cross or Armagh. And he won with Cross and Armagh. When he took over the Cross job, they hadn't won a county title in over 10 years. They had never won Ulster. Now they've won four All Irelands, six Ulsters and 13 straight county championships. That's excellence and that's legacy.

Before he took over the Armagh job, the county had never won an All Ireland or a league. The team were washed up, one he had got to a couple of years too late. In his first year they won the All Ireland. In his fourth, they won the league and the greatest provincial title ever won. They became probably the greatest Ulster team ever, even if only one non-Ulster team . . . Kerry, in a classic . . . ever beat them in championship.

And yeah, we know, they only ever won the one All Ireland, but in Kernan's time, it was Armagh that defined the All Ireland. They changed and set the standards, the parameters, the landscape. Maybe the odd manager this past decade, like Mickey Harte, has been as good and as successful. But there was none better, none as important or influential.

"The minute I took over Cross, I always liked two men up front. That meant you had space. The one thing defenders don't like is space and the one thing forwards do like is space, so the thing was to get it into that space as quick as possible. I looked at the Kerry team that won All Irelands. Charlie Nelligan got it, hit it out to the wing to Jack O'Shea or Paidi, Jacko or Paidi 50 yards out from goal out on the wing, and bang, straight into Bomber. So a team is attacking, the ball drops in your square, keeper gets it, fists it out to the corner back, he hits the right-hand side of midfield; then, bumph, full-forward line, Bomber gets it, lays it off, back of the net.

"Now, to get the ball back and to leave space, you have to track back. So with Cross, we had three men across the middle of the field. Big Colm O'Neill played number 15 and he came out and played in the middle along with Andy Cunningham and John McEntee. So there you had three magnificent, big, strong men who could catch a ball, and then you had Francie at centre-half and Tony McEntee at centre-half forward. So there you had the diamond. We were going to dominate around the middle and we would have space to get the ball in.

"Now, when you don't have the ball, you have to keep your shape. You need to keep two men in the full-forward line and two men in the half forward-line. That still leaves you with 10 people inside your '50. That's enough. Then you win the ball, and you break. Bang! Hit a wingforward, he hits the full-forward line . . . score.

"But for that to work, you must have men who'll work. One name . . . John Toal. You can talk about Geezer [Kieran McGeeney], Oisin, Stevie, McGrane, but they'll all tell you, John Toal was what we were all about. If John Toal had been fit in 2005, we'd have won that All Ireland.

He'd have got a tackle in on Sean Cavanagh.

Every successful team has a John Toal. Who knows where to be, who listens to the call from somebody behind him. 'Take my man, get the tackle in.' Then he pressurises the ball, and somebody else sweeps up and fills the hole. We used that all the time, that sweeper system. So when the pressure is put on the ball out there, they [the opposition] have to kick it, they kick it short, and we have someone to palm it down to and come out with it. The end of the 2002 All Ireland. Justin McNulty fists it down, who's there but Tony McEntee. Tony to Geezer. Final whistle.

"In fairness we would have looked at the Meath and Down teams that won All Irelands in the 90s. That game in Celtic Park against Derry; I often watch that video. The speed at which Down moved the ball that day. And the tackling and work rate. In fairness, there was no problem selling our boys on work rate. Like Diarmuid Marsden was probably the best tackling forward in the game. When Oisin missed the penalty, 65,000 put their heads in their hands. Diarmuid Marsden put the ball and man over the sideline and from that ball, he scored us a point. The first year I took over, the tackles himself and Geezer would make in training used scare me. You'd hear the thumping, you'd feel it, and you'd be saying, 'Holy shit. These boys are going to hurt each other.'

I had to get to understand the mentality of the two men. Backing off just wasn't their way."

Listening to Kernan talk, you're struck by his affection for his players. Over the course of our two-hour chat, he doesn't just mention every one of the 15 players who started in that landmark 2002 All Ireland win, he eulogises them.

Aidan O'Rourke and his right-to-left pass for McDonnell's winning point ("The best pass in that year's championship . . . or any other championship"). His hurt that neither McEntee ever won an All Star ("In 2002 John scored 112 from play; there wasn't a centre forward to touch him that year"). And the fortitude of Oisin McConville.

"I was surprised when Oisin said in the book that we had drifted. It wasn't that we drifted; there'd just be times when Oisin keeps himself to himself. I'd respect that. When he came back to us after the treatment, I didn't make a big fuss. I thought it was just better to get him back into the family atmosphere and move on, because ultimately the people who were looking after him could advise him better than we would. I'd like to think I'd always be there for Oisin. He's always been there for us. A lesser man with his problem would have packed the whole thing in. Lesser players play for their county and do damn all with their clubs. Oisin has played every minute of every championship match for Cross this past 13 years. Thirteen years! Without ever being taken off! Even after the gambling! Even after all those back operations! Our physio told me that the toughest man that he ever dealt with was Oisin McConville. He wasn't wrong."

It took all kinds to achieve what Armagh achieved. For every brooder like Oisin and Geezer, there had to be a joker like Benny Tierney. Tierney had announced his retirement before Kernan was announced as team manager but Kernan begged for him to give it one more year. The team and the dressing room needed him.

"I remember going on the bus one day with Jimmy Smyth to an Ulster final when we were playing with Armagh, " recalls Kernan. "The pair of us were at the back of the bus, having a laugh, and a county board officer came down and ate us out of it, saying we obviously didn't want to win. Another player agreed with him.

When we got to Clones he ran straight into the toilet and spent half an hour in there when Jimmy just got togged off and went out and played. And I remember thinking, every camp needs a Jimmy Smyth. Someone who can have that bit of fun to settle you down before a match yet someone you know who'll be ready for battle."

It wasn't all fun and wins though. Looking back, winning Ulster after Ulster was what made them and it's what broke them. "I wouldn't swap the four Ulsters for anything but it definitely caught up on us. It was unfair. Like, at the start of every year, the goal was to get to an All Ireland quarter-final. From there anything could happen. But getting there was the hard part. I mean, compare Munster to Ulster.

Right now Kerry are in an All Ireland quarterfinal every year. That's their first peak of the year. In Ulster we're beating the shite out of each other just to get to a quarter-final."

Even when they got over that obstacle, there were more. Two thousand and three was a killer. "If we were playing anyone but Tyrone we'd have won that All Ireland, " says Joe, "but Peter [Canavan] had to get up them steps one way or the other." Losing to the old enemy in 2005 wasn't any easier either. But you live with it. You even take pride in it. "That [2005] game, " he says, "was the Thrilla in Manilla. Every blow, the crowd felt it."

Themselves and Tyrone went beyond football. The death of Cormac McAnallen proved that. For those of us who write about this game and had to write about those sad, dark days, an abiding image of that time and of that team is how they carried themselves.

The morning of that funeral in Eglish, the panel gathered in the Armagh City Hotel, all impeccably dressed, all dressed the same. At four minutes to 10, they left the hotel lobby en masse to embark on the bus, and at 10 o'clock on the button that bus pulled out of the car park.

Not at two minutes past, not at three minutes past 10, but on the hour, on the button.

Then, in the little church in Eglish, they were guests of honour as thousands stood outside, before the team then filed out to become guards of honour as the crowd followed Cormac, to his grave. It was the salute and hallmark of champions.

"Well, we felt right away that we needed to do something, to show what the GAA family is all about, " explains Kernan, "so the first thing we did was ring the county board, asking could we be there? We went through the proper channels because to me, there's always a right way and wrong way to do these things.

And fair play to Tyrone and the McAnallen family, they said thank you and invited us into the church.

"I think it was important we were there.

Because for months before and after that [2003] game, people were saying, 'Armagh and Tyrone hate each other. There's no respect, just hatred.' But that's not true. We particularly respected Cormac McAnallen. He was a lovely young lad who was taken away from all of us."

It was the right time to go. The veterans needed a new voice. The youngsters needed more time. And his sons deserved a clean break too. Last month the four of them all started in the Ulster club final . . . Aaron, Stephen, Tony and Paul. If the four of them all started some day with Armagh with Joe still at the helm, there was a danger it would be seen not as another remarkable landmark but as an act of nepotism. In 2004, Stephen Kernan had been one of the mainstays of the county's All Ireland under-21 success; in any county, he'd have been earmarked as a player for the senior team for years to come. In Armagh though, with his father as manager, his promotion was seen . . . even within elements of the camp . . . in suspicious terms. It affected the player's confidence and game, and in the end, his father's wellbeing too.

"I was disappointed with the way some people reacted in the last couple of years. Things were said that were totally untrue. We gave every player a chance. Even some of our great players took three to five years to make it, but with Stephen, it was like he had to be either perfect or not be there at all."

But that's to look back in anger, and that's not Joe's way. Stephen's future is bright, while the past and memories they all shared glow too.

Watching Paul Grimley and John McCloskey on the training ground, masters of all they purveyed; the hairs on the back of everyone's neck when Geezer and John McEntee spoke at a team meeting in La Manga about how they were brothers and if a brother fell, McGeeney would be there to cover his back; you couldn't buy moments like that.

Joe Kernan still hasn't been to Australia. But his eyes have seen the Promised Land. And thanks to him, so have the people of Armagh.

Read this yesterday, another brilliant article by a well-informed and articulate journalist. Compare and contrast this with that tube Liam Hayes's article.

Quote"But for that to work, you must have men who'll work. One name . . . John Toal. You can talk about Geezer [Kieran McGeeney], Oisin, Stevie, McGrane, but they'll all tell you, John Toal was what we were all about. If John Toal had been fit in 2005, we'd have won that All Ireland.

Where does that sit with the fact that in 2003 Philip Loughran was preferred to John Toal at midfield? Was there an injury to Toal I'm forgetting about?

Good article though.

Why?

Quote from: mackers on January 07, 2008, 02:45:54 PM
Read this yesterday, another brilliant article by a well-informed and articulate journalist. Compare and contrast this with that tube Liam Hayes's article.

Who is this Andy Cunningham chappy he mentions then?

QuoteThe target man (for before Kieran Donaghy there was Ronan Clarke, and before Ronan Clarke there was Gavin Cummiskey with Cross)

The original and still the best...

;)

Saffron sam, you're really reaching there! We'll forgive him for one typo in an article as he is quoting Kernan at the time. :-\

Quote from: mackers on January 08, 2008, 10:39:25 AM
Saffron sam, you're really reaching there! We'll forgive him for one typo in an article as he is quoting Kernan at the time. :-\

Maybe you will, but then you read this.

QuoteTHE GAME HE DREAMT UP

He's the godfather of the modern game. Maybe you didn't look at it or him that way, but it's true.

The blanket defence. The target man (for before Kieran Donaghy there was Ronan Clarke, and before Ronan Clarke there was Gavin Cummiskey with Cross).)

Kernan invented the target man. I have my doubts. I'm trying to think of a target man before Cummiskey - a big beardy fella, from Kerry I think he was. Liston or something like that.

Sugar-coated Donagh called the article, I would go a stage further.

By all means sugar-coat but a journalist should have no problem getting names correct, nor should he make outlandish claims like the one above.

Shannon is one of the best journalists around, but this isn't one of his better pieces.

Not sure he's conveyed that right. The target man no- the diagonal ball to target men yes.

Two men full forward lines too. Were they utilised as much before Kernan?

Now we're getting somewhere!!! I knew your anti-Armagh bias would've been a factor!! Look, since Donaghy has come on the scene every journalist in the country has talked about him transforming football, which is balix also, I presume this is his angle on that. The target man has been used the annals of time and Kernan refers to the use of the Bomber in the article.
I am not a fan of Kieran Shannon because of one pro-Armagh article, I said what I thought of him months ago on a separate thread.

Quote

He's the godfather of the modern game. Maybe you didn't look at it or him that way, but it's true.

The blanket defence. The target man (for before Kieran Donaghy there was Ronan Clarke, and before Ronan Clarke there was Gavin Cummiskey with Cross).

It'd be fascinating to get the horse's mouth insight on this. BC1?

Kernan certainly copied elements of the game that he saw as successful in previous eras, and fair play for his homework. nothing is new in our game, it has all been done before and forgotten. in my conscoiusness, some of the elements obviously adopted were: targetman (the bomber), 2 man full forward line (meath), defensive midfielder covering the 6 slot (jack o'se), diagonal passing inside (meath).

Joe is a huge fan of the Meath way of doing things and certainly we took much of our style of play from them.  Uladh is correct in that he took elements of successful teams and tried to blend them together to get a winning formula.  He changed the Cross style to suit the change in the way football was being played but he never waivered from the basic requirements in that you needed strong ball winners down through the core of your team.

The one thig about football on general is that it is constantly evolving and Joe changed our style to suit both the change in the game and the bunch of players.  What he did was not new as such, it just had not been done in such a successful way for a number of years and consequently lazy journalists see it as the new dawn.

I always liked Cross's style of play and it took me a while to figure out why I recognised something I liked in it! So when Joe took on Armagh, it was no surprise to find myself admiring them as well.