Tricky game but should win
Armagh to win, Derry very poor today
Today's game will have very little bearing on this match. in terms of styles, i'm not sure armagh could've gotten a tougher draw.
No matter who Armagh may have been drawn against (with the exception of Leitrim), you would never get an Armagh supporter who would guarantee a win against anyone. That's the thing about Armagh, you just never know!
That said, if Bradley and Muldoon are curtailed, then Armagh will be hard to stop.
I agree Uladh, Derry are unlikely to play that badly again this year. I'd much preferred to have gotten Donegal. Armagh were lucky enough to beat Derry in 05 and I'd say it'll be tight again. Still its the sort of game that will put Armagh's season back on track if they can win it.
Quote from: balladmaker on June 24, 2007, 06:40:41 PM
No matter who Armagh may have been drawn against (with the exception of Leitrim), you would never get an Armagh supporter who would guarantee a win against anyone. That's the thing about Armagh, you just never know!
That said, if Bradley and Muldoon are curtailed, then Armagh will be hard to stop.
Why with expception of Leitrim ???
The last team I wanted to draw was Armagh. I havent had time to compose myself enough to post on the Monaghan Derry match thread. I have never seen a Derry team play with such a lack of direction or more worryingly passion, even in the deep dark 80's you where guaranteed a bit of pride in the jersey. Armagh will beat Derry convincingly, it wont be pretty on the eye, and it could set them on the road to a last hurrah. Any word on a venue? Nuetral ground or will it be Casement?
I think this is not the worst draw for Armagh. Armagh have beaten Derry, but have never had an easy win and Derry have beaten us recently in the league. Combined with Donegal's performance against Tyrone, nobody in Armagh should be complacent about this one. The championship starts now, and we should be up for it, if Armagh play well they will beat Derry.
Expect a hard one, its the only way Derry will live with Armagh,
The Ref will decide it.
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 24, 2007, 07:20:00 PM
Expect a hard one, its the only way Derry will live with Armagh,
The Ref will decide it.
Armagh could find it tough. Some savage things were said today about Derry on TV, radio and I'm sure in the crowd. Crozier has little motivation to find.
On the other hand, they might just be crap.....
this game will be clones! will it be on the saturday evening or sunday?
Could be a short summer for Derry !
Clones surely?
Would have preferred to have avoided another tough Ulster clash, but maybe it'll bring the younger Armagh fellas on another bit.
Derry will find it hard to get that listless performance out of their systems in only two weeks.
Be a tight one, but Armagh by a couple of points. ;)
I had an inkling this would happen, I was hoping for Down but thought we might end up with Derry. This will be a hard hitting affair and I think it will come down to two or three points, Armagh played well and lost about six weeks ago and Derry were brutal and lost so they will be charged up to redeem their reputation.
Prediction. Armagh by three points.
Can someone fill me in this. When I read the rule changes for the new qualifiers I thought it said that the venue for matches would still be decided on whether either team was a designated team. Thats is if a designated team was drawn against a non designated team then they had home advantage otherwise first team out had home advantage. RTE seem to suggest that first out had home advantage regardless. Does that mean the match could be in Crossmaglen?
This game needs to be in Clones!
Why not Healy Park?
That Derry team is one of the most over rated about, was it a huge surprise that Monaghan beat them. They had a bit of bother for a while against Antrim (the worst team in Ulster).
QuoteWhy not Healy Park?
Because neither Armagh nor Derry people want to spend time and money in Tyrone.
Fer fox ache, is there any truth in the rumour that you are blackwater fox from this board a couple of years ago, if so will you please send me the f**king money you owe me for buying you all that PGA clobber, I will tack on 5% interest so that would bring the total to one hundred and thirty seven quid. Thanks.
Quote from: ONeill on June 24, 2007, 07:26:33 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on June 24, 2007, 07:20:00 PM
Expect a hard one, its the only way Derry will live with Armagh,
The Ref will decide it.
Armagh could find it tough. Some savage things were said today about Derry on TV, radio and I'm sure in the crowd. Crozier has little motivation to find.
On the other hand, they might just be crap.....
Agree totally. There will (or at least should) be a lot of hurt amongst the Derry contingent, and the opportunity to redeem themselves will be there big time! It's a match I feel uncomfortable about!
From nowhere near the blackwater, the closest river would be the Roe so you're huntin the wrong fox
Pride will be at stake but if Armagh or Derry are to do anything this year they need to make a statement, Armagh will take time to settle down as they have not played in two months and will be rested but rusty and derry will be smarting and chomping at the bit to redeem themselves, this will be a fascinating encounter but I think we will prevail.
If not i hope Joe resigns and becomes the main man for Antrim football, surely he can get something out of the single most disappointing county in Irish sports.
Quote from: fer fox ache on June 24, 2007, 11:39:31 PM
From nowhere near the blackwater, the closest river would be the Roe so you're huntin the wrong fox
Fair enough fox, no disrespect intended, I was just asking like, I got screwed by one of your countymen and like a tube I sent him a bunch of PGA gear on good faith alone and got shafted, the worst part was shaney thought that was ok because he was from tyrone but to me the man should have cut me a check. I learned my lesson but now realize that you are not the man in question.Thanks.
Quote from: David McKeown on June 24, 2007, 10:52:15 PM
Can someone fill me in this. When I read the rule changes for the new qualifiers I thought it said that the venue for matches would still be decided on whether either team was a designated team. Thats is if a designated team was drawn against a non designated team then they had home advantage otherwise first team out had home advantage. RTE seem to suggest that first out had home advantage regardless. Does that mean the match could be in Crossmaglen?
While Crossmaglen would hold the Armagh fans and the two bus load of Derry supporters, I reckon we'd play better in Clones.
QuoteThats is if a designated team was drawn against a non designated team
There are no longer designated teams, most of those are in the Tommy Murphy cup. If Joe has a say, I imagine Clones will be the choice, after all Derry have done better against us in Cross than Clones in recent years!
Quote from: armaghniac on June 25, 2007, 12:11:52 AM
QuoteThats is if a designated team was drawn against a non designated team
There are no longer designated teams, most of those are in the Tommy Murphy cup. If Joe has a say, I imagine Clones will be the choice, after all Derry have done better against us in Cross than Clones in recent years!
Aye but that was in the league, not the championship.
Derry won't have a big following, esp. after yesteray's performance! - Cross may be adequate! - Can anyone confirm the capacity?
On the other hand, what's the chances of a double header in Clones with the Fermanagh game? - I'd like that!
David you're right. The first team out of the hat gets home advantage - provided you have a championship standard ground. The game can't be in Crossmaglen because it's not up to championship standard. I'd say the fixture will be reversed and it will be played at Celtic Park. On the other hand Armagh could use Newry as their home venue.
Have to agree with rufus on this one, theres something making me uncomfortable about the draw. Definetly think that this is a potential bananna skin match!
Thanks Lecale but can anyone confirm when the rule about designated teams was removed I dont remember reading it in the rules that changed the format of the qualifiers. Mind you my memory is not great.
On an almost related note what are the requirements to be considered a campionship standard ground are. Is there a list of such grounds anywhere. If Armagh have home advantage then surely they should be allowed to pick the ground (within reason) I think it should be in Clones too.
Unusually for me, as I'm an eternal pessimist, I'd be fairly confident on this one. The Derry display against Monaghan (and Antrim before that) suggests there's something amiss, and there's very little balls to be had in that team.
the big problem with this Derry team is lack of preparation and lack of gameplan/tactics.
Crozier does not have the managerial skill to run a team. Derry looke totally inept against an average monaghan team even though you would have said on paper that we should have won by 4-5 points.
I dont see this as a potential banana skin for Armagh, its more embarrasement for Derry (and that's hard to take considering the quality of "some" of our players).
One good thing that might come from it is that we might get rid of crozier and some of the dead wood he brought onto the panel for next year.
And the point of the history lesson drici was?
Quote from: drici on June 25, 2007, 12:39:40 PM
Ulster Senior Football Championship
First Round
Sunday May 28th 1995
The Athletic Grounds Armagh
Armagh 0-10
Cathal O'Rourke(0-7) Des Mackin(0-1) Diarmuid Marsden(0-1) Martin McQuillan(0-1)
Derry 1-17
Enda Gormley(0-4) Henry Downey(1-0) Anthony Tohill(0-2) Damien Barton(0-2) Declan Bateson(0-2) Seamus Downey(0-2)Johnny McGurk(0-1)Brian McGilligan(0-1) Dermot Heaney(0-1) Damien Cassidy(0-1) Gary McGilll(0-1)
Half Time:
Armagh 0-05
Derry 0-10
Remember that day well. You know things are bad when Henry Downey is scoring goals against you!
We lost the minors that day too! :-[
...luckily though we went on to invent a new sport in 2002! :P
QuoteDavid you're right. The first team out of the hat gets home advantage - provided you have a championship standard ground. The game can't be in Crossmaglen because it's not up to championship standard. I'd say the fixture will be reversed and it will be played at Celtic Park. On the other hand Armagh could use Newry as their home venue.
Lecale, why can Clones not be used? Everyone knows that Armagh use Clones as their Championship ground, pending the redevelopment of the Athletic Grounds. There is absolutely no question of this game being switched to Celtic Park.
Glad that Derry pulled Armagh out of the hat... This will be the end of the road for the current management. Armagh to win at a canter - wouldn't be surprised if it was a reversal of that excellent '95 scoreline!
Can anyone confirm that the game has been fixed for Celtic Pk?. It's posted along with the other venues on another thread. If it is it's a disgrace & our County Board shouldn't take it laying down! What was wrong with Clones? Or even Omagh? I'm not parinoid but I'm beginning to think that GAC or what ever they're called now have it in for us.
No seems game will be in Clones possibly as a double header with the Fermanagh game. At least thats what I heard on the radio there not too long ago
Quote from: drici on June 25, 2007, 12:39:40 PM
Ulster Senior Football Championship
First Round
Sunday May 28th 1995
The Athletic Grounds Armagh
Armagh 0-10
Cathal O'Rourke(0-7) Des Mackin(0-1) Diarmuid Marsden(0-1) Martin McQuillan(0-1)
Derry 1-17
Enda Gormley(0-4) Henry Downey(1-0) Anthony Tohill(0-2) Damien Barton(0-2) Declan Bateson(0-2) Seamus Downey(0-2)Johnny McGurk(0-1)Brian McGilligan(0-1) Dermot Heaney(0-1) Damien Cassidy(0-1) Gary McGilll(0-1)
Half Time:
Armagh 0-05
Derry 0-10
surely you meant to say that the venue was "The Pathetic Grounds"
Football qualifiers, Murphy Cup dates and venues revealed
25 June 2007
The times, dates and venues for the All-Ireland football qualifiers and Tommy Murphy Cup first round ties have been announced.
Five of the eight All-Ireland qualifiers will be have a 7pm throw-in on Saturday, July 7. The games between Fermanagh and the losers of next Sunday's Leinster SFC semi-final between Laois and Wexford, and Armagh and Derry, will take place at 2pm and 4pm respectively on Sunday, July 8, while Roscommon will host Kildare at Dr Hyde Park at 3pm the previous day.
Both of the Sunday games could yet be played as a double-header at Clones as Enniskillen, which was out of commission during the National League due to upgrading work, may not be ready to host the Fermanagh v Laois/Wexford clash. Armagh's meeting with Derry will definitely go ahead at Clones.
On the Saturday evening, Limerick will play Louth at the Gaelic Grounds, Castlebar will host the meeting of Mayo and Cavan, Newry is the venue for Down v Meath, Westmeath will have home advantage in Mullingar for their clash with Longford, while Leitrim will entertain Donegal in Carrick-on-Shannon.
In the Tommy Murphy Cup, Kilkenny face Antrim in a preliminary round tie next Saturday, June 30 at Nowlan Park, with the winners travelling to Ruislip to play London in the first round proper on July 7 at 3pm.
The remaining three first round fixtures will also be played on July 7 at 7pm. Carlow must travel to Dungarvan to face Waterford, Wicklow host Offaly in Aughrim and Tipperary take on Clare in Ardfinnan.
Saturday 30 June
Tommy Murphy Cup - Preliminary Round
Kilkenny v Antrim, Nowlan Park, 3.00
Saturday 7 July
Football Qualifier - Round 1
Limerick v Louth, Páirc na nGael, 7.00
Mayo v Cavan, Castlebar, 7.00
Down v Meath, Newry, 7.00
Roscommon v Kildare, Hyde Park, 3.00
Westmeath v Longford, Cusack Park, 7.00
Leitrim v Donegal, Carrick-on-Shannon, 7.00
Tommy Murphy Cup - Round 1
Waterford v Carlow, Dungarvan, 7.00
Wicklow v Offaly, Aughrim, 7.00
Tipperary v Clare, Ardfinnan, 7.00
London v Kilkenny or Antrim, Ruislip, 3.00
Sunday 8 July
Football Qualifier - Round 1
Fermanagh v Laois/Wexford, Enniskillen/Clones, 2.00
Armagh v Derry, Clones, 4.00
(hoganstand)
Other Championship results between Derry & Armagh over the past 20yrs!
2005 26 June Armagh 1-11 V Derry 0-10 Casement Park
2000 16 July Armagh 1-12 V Derry 1-11 Clones Final
1999 4 August Armagh 1-10 V Derry 0-12 Clones Semi-Final
1998 28 June Armagh 0-12 V Derry 2-13 Clones Semi Final
1996 02 June Armagh 1-06 V Derry 1-13 Celtic Park
1995 28 May Armagh 0-10 V Derry 1-17 Athletic Grounds
1987 19 July Armagh 0-09 V Derry 0-11 Clones Final
Derry were shit yesterday, no passion or game plan. Doesn't necessarily mean they will be as poor again the next day though. From an Armagh point of view i'd be more worried about the lack of our own forward power - of the 6 forwards we only have McDonnell, McConville and Marsden able to get scores and of those 3, neither McConville or Marsden are likely to get more than 1 or 2 scores from play. Kernan has to give a chance to one of Vernon, Toal or Forker to add a bit of spark to the forwards. In all likelihood he won't though (barring injuries) and we will be relying on the same faces as against Donegal. If McGuckian is back for Derry, anywhere near full fitness, it could be a very difficult game for Armagh - he would probably play on McDonnell, who he kept in his pocket in the league match.
Quote from: SouthArmaghBandit on June 25, 2007, 02:10:29 PM
Can anyone confirm that the game has been fixed for Celtic Pk?. It's posted along with the other venues on another thread. If it is it's a disgrace & our County Board shouldn't take it laying down! What was wrong with Clones? Or even Omagh? I'm not parinoid but I'm beginning to think that GAC or what ever they're called now have it in for us.
[/quote
It's a disgrace our county board can't get their heads out of their arses and give us a ground suitable!
RTE sports news say Sunday 8th in Clones, which is OK by me.
Quote from: Syd on June 24, 2007, 11:02:16 PM
That Derry team is one of the most over rated about, was it a huge surprise that Monaghan beat them. They had a bit of bother for a while against Antrim (the worst team in Ulster).
over rated ??? sure everone says there shite ;D
The possibility of a slug-fest between Tyrone's 2 poorer neighbouring rivals with one of them guaranteed to go out!
:D ;D Can't wait! ;D :D
Ah Jaysus, you're a bad hoor OTB :D
This match still worries me slightly because i dont think that Derry could play as bad again and in addition i dont feel Muldoon and Bradley could be as quiet again....
Id agree with arma mike in that we defo need someone else in forward that can relieve a little bit of the burden off mcdonnell.. my choice wud be toal!
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 25, 2007, 10:19:13 PM
The possibility of a slug-fest between Tyrone's 2 poorer neighbouring rivals with one of them guaranteed to go out!
:D ;D Can't wait! ;D :D
Good luck against Monaghan in the Armagh cup final
Quote from: Uladh on June 26, 2007, 10:41:40 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 25, 2007, 10:19:13 PM
The possibility of a slug-fest between Tyrone's 2 poorer neighbouring rivals with one of them guaranteed to go out!
:D ;D Can't wait! ;D :D
Good luck against Monaghan in the Armagh cup final
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You have got to laugh. Bitter bitter loser. So Uladh, whats the tactics going to be ???
Quote from: Uladh on June 26, 2007, 10:41:40 AM
Good luck against Monaghan in the Armagh cup final
Uladh surely if anything its the Cavan cup. After all they have won ulster 3 times more than Armagh:
1. Cavan 39
2. Armagh 13
2. Monaghan 13
4. Down 12
5. Antrim 10
5. Tyrone 10
7. Derry 7
8. Donegal 5
9. Fermanagh 0
Edit: P.S. The only reason Armagh are written second is because they come before Monaghan alphabetically
Quote from: Deal_Me_In on June 26, 2007, 10:52:45 AM
Quote from: Uladh on June 26, 2007, 10:41:40 AM
Good luck against Monaghan in the Armagh cup final
Uladh surely if anything its the Cavan cup. After all they have won ulster 3 times more than Armagh:
1. Cavan 39
2. Armagh 13
2. Monaghan 13
4. Down 12
5. Antrim 10
5. Tyrone 10
7. Derry 7
8. Donegal 5
9. Fermanagh 0
That bit is missing from Uladhs history books.
The armagh cup ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Im sore laughing , you santimonious bollocks !
Surely Tyrone couldn't be interested in beating Monaghan in the ulster final after the great pains you fellows went to over the last few years to tell us how little interest you have in winning the provincial title?
It used to be called the cavan cup, then for years noone could win it twice in a row and the talk was that if anyone did they could keep it. then armagh won three in a row and the only fitting reward is to rename it again. the armagh cup.
Uladh,
With the revamp of the qualifiers there ther are no easy-draws and having to play high intensity games on consecutive weeks, surely the sensible option is now to go the traditional route by winning the Anglo Celt Cup (not Cavan Cup or Armagh Cup) and the only way of doing this is to beat Monaghan as all other teams have already been eliminated.
Quote from: Uladh on June 26, 2007, 11:04:26 AM
Surely Tyrone couldn't be interested in beating Monaghan in the ulster final after the great pains you fellows went to over the last few years to tell us how little interest you have in winning the provincial title?
It used to be called the cavan cup, then for years noone could win it twice in a row and the talk was that if anyone did they could keep it. then armagh won three in a row and the only fitting reward is to rename it again. the armagh cup.
If it was to renamed ( on fantasy island maybe ) it will be the only time the word Armagh will be added to any Silverware this year anyway
Oh meowww, put them claws away Bensars!
Quote from: Bensars on June 26, 2007, 11:29:15 AM
Quote from: Uladh on June 26, 2007, 11:04:26 AM
Surely Tyrone couldn't be interested in beating Monaghan in the ulster final after the great pains you fellows went to over the last few years to tell us how little interest you have in winning the provincial title?
It used to be called the cavan cup, then for years noone could win it twice in a row and the talk was that if anyone did they could keep it. then armagh won three in a row and the only fitting reward is to rename it again. the armagh cup.
If it was to renamed ( on fantasy island maybe ) it will be the only time the word Armagh will be added to any Silverware this year anyway
What about All-Ireland Club Champions 2007 - Crossmaglen (Armagh). Tool!
Is there not some kind of Armagh Tyrone creche where you lot can be kept away from the internet
Its just too easy to get away with to ignore fox...
Quote from: fer fox ache on June 26, 2007, 12:22:12 PM
Is there not some kind of Armagh Tyrone creche where you lot can be kept away from the internet
Queens and Jordanstown used to serve this purpose but then they made extra computers available
QuoteIf it was to renamed ( on fantasy island maybe ) it will be the only time the word Armagh will be added to any Silverware this year anyway
You could mention the Ulster U-21 football championship here too.
Bring back Bitnet and Gopher, this web thing is too widely available.
There are some interesting matchups ahead in this game.
the respective full back and full forward lines will probably have a large bearing on the result and Armagh may struggle in one on one situations here. Bradley gave Andy Mallon a complete roasting in casement park two years ago, but McNulty put the clampers on him when he was switched across off duke. Francie also kept Muldoon quiet that day and Armagh will definately miss His aerial strength. i don't see any obvious candidate to pick muldoon up. assuming derry will play with 2 full forwards, donaghy will roam out again with wilkinson and mallon will have to close Bradley down this time, with McNulty tangling with Muldoon our best option. although it looks like an area derry could make hay at first glance, armagh won't allow that to happen by closing down muldoon and bradley's space in a similar manner to monaghan did.
At the other end, assuming McGuckin is still injured, I'd imagine Derry will now feel confident in putting McGolderick on McConville with McCloy taking Stevie from Killeavy. McCloy is the exact type of defender you need to handle McDonnell so Armagh may struggle for scores again. That would leave O'Kane tracking Marsden out into the half forward line and if this match up pans out it could be armagh's route to victory. Marsden's raw power will trouble O'Kane and he could cause derry a lot of trouble. assuming hinphy will come in for Bradley, he could hurt armagh against either McKeever or O'Rourke as they'll drag him forward where he could create problems.
Assuming Diver will make a three in midfield, derry could have a height advantage for what its worth from kickouts. they also had last week but monaghan still cleaned them out. Doherty dominted the midfield exchanges in casement 2 years ago until toal came on and i'd be hoping his injury keeps him out of this one! McKeever is likely to be the one to follow diver and if derry are cute with their kick outs, they could win some ball there. McGeeney might be a better option to go with diver, but then you'd be taking him out of the heart of the defence.
Armagh's nominal half forward line is unlikely to penetrate again. obviously we can write sk off already against lochart and with o'rourke basically playing in defence, McKeever will have a huge work load on his hands, which he wouldn't be keen on.
If derry avoid injuries this week, armagh could have a battle on their hands.
I agree with Uladh's concerns over our half forward line and our reliance on Stevie for scores. Surely this is the perfect opportunity to start Peadar Toal. He can give Stevie a hand with regard to getting a few scores, and with the Derry wing backs being so poor the last day out, his defensive frailities will not be exposed.
will this game be all ticket?
Probably all-ticket as it is a double header.
Doubt it will be all ticket. 35,000 capacity. Derry and Fermanagh to take 8,000 each, Armagh 10,000 and Wexford (presumably) 4,000. Maybe I am well off with my figures there?
With 4 county teams involved though and considering safety issues, surely all-ticket would be sensable, trust I'm hoping its not as I can't be arse with the hassle of all-ticket.
Don't worry we will be sending 2,000 back in protest of travelling to Clones!
Quote from: corn02 on June 27, 2007, 02:44:51 PM
Don't worry we will be sending 2,000 back in protest of travelling to Clones!
:D :D :D
QuoteDon't worry we will be sending 2,000 back in protest of travelling to Clones!
I'd heard the dippers were planning to be out that day so most Armagh fans will be staying indoors! ;)
Seriously though, I think Cross would be capable of holding the game. It would add to the occasion.
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 27, 2007, 03:49:06 PM
QuoteDon't worry we will be sending 2,000 back in protest of travelling to Clones!
I'd heard the dippers were planning to be out that day so most Armagh fans will be staying indoors! ;)
w**ker!
I dont think there's a hope in hell this game will be all ticket. Derry wouldnt bring 8,000 to an all ireland semi final and id say 800 would be closer to the mark! Id say if they get 20-25000 at the match they'd be happy with that. Cant see many from Wexford/Laois making the trip and Id say Fermanagh wouldnt bring any more than 4-5000.
Unless the Armagh support has really defected, there could be as many from Armagh as the other 3 put together, especially if Wexford is playing. Laois might bring a few and people from all over the country would come to support Fermanagh in that case.
arthurs stand is ticket only
QuoteI'd heard the dippers were planning to be out that day so most Armagh fans will be staying indoors!
w**ker!
Looks like Charlie was one of the one's caught drivin on Morgan's 20p a litre red on the way to Ballybofey! ;D :D
nothing wrong with a good red
Quote from: twotwocharlie on June 28, 2007, 02:56:00 PM
nothing wrong with a good red
Who changed the conversation to wine 22charles
Best 4 from the Armagh U21 Half Forward line from 2006 and 2007
S Forker, P Courtney, C Vernon, Peadar Toal
4 of the most recently used players in the Armagh Senior Half Forward Line
P McKeever, S Kernan, M O'Rourke, J Lavery
I know which 3 players I'd rather have in the Armagh half forward line against Derry on July 8th
Given there are 4 of them, you'd have to go for the u21s....
I'll take the 2 Ballyhegan men & O'Rourke!
Quote from: PatDaly on June 29, 2007, 03:24:20 AM
Armagh U21 Half Forward line from 2007 and 2006:
S Forker, P Courtney, C Vernon, Peadar Toal
Armagh Senior Half Forward Line from May 2007 v Donegal
P McKeever, S Kernan, M O'Rourke
I know which 3 players I'd rather have in the Armagh half forward line against Derry on July 8th
Pity you can only play 3 men in the half forward line now
Goats, stay off the drugs..........
Kernan and Courtney were B footballers very recently
Quote from: thebandit on June 29, 2007, 11:17:14 AM
Kernan and Courtney were B footballers very recently
what do you mean were....they still are! :D
You a senior footballer yourself?
They've a decent medal haul between them!
Quote from: Goats Do Shave on June 29, 2007, 02:05:51 PM
You a senior footballer yourself?
They've a decent medal haul between them!
And what does that mean?
Because they have a decent medal haul between the 3 of them you would start them against Derry ???
You could name players throughout the country who have a decent medal haul, but you wouldnt have them on your team.
Perhaps your selections have more to do with your club
I made a fair comment in retaliation to criticsm of them!
They are not B players...as their medal haul would suggest! ;)
I would start Paddy McK & MOR though against the Oak men!
Centre Forward on the other hand is a trick one. Kernan may be the best available option! - I'll leave it to the big fella...he seems to know best! ;)
Dont know wat you Armagh boys are crying about,esp in comparison to our half fprward line. Id take MOR, Paddy McK,Toal or Vernon anyday before our incompetent incumbents
armagh team for sunday. 1 kinney , 2 mc nulty 3 donaghy 4 mallon 5 a kernan 6 mc geeny 7 k mc keever 8 toner 9 mc grane
10 o rourke 11 s kernan 12 p kernan 13 mc donnel 14 marsden 15 mc conville
Quote from: Hedley Lamarr on June 29, 2007, 01:33:02 PM
Quote from: thebandit on June 29, 2007, 11:17:14 AM
Kernan and Courtney were B footballers very recently
what do you mean were....they still are! :D
Bet you're a leg end. ::)
think toal should definately get a run against derry!he may not have great work rate,but people like mor will be able to make up for this.imo we do not have enough of a scoring threat from play at the minute.bring him in for mckeever and stick with the rest from donegal game!
Quotethink toal should definately get a run against derry
I'm told that he is injured?????
Quote from: twotwocharlie on June 29, 2007, 05:33:40 PM
armagh team for sunday. 1 kinney , 2 mc nulty 3 donaghy 4 mallon 5 a kernan 6 mc geeny 7 k mc keever 8 toner 9 mc grane
10 o rourke 11 s kernan 12 p kernan 13 mc donnel 14 marsden 15 mc conville
Wont be far off the mark, except you need Paddy McKeever instead of P Kernan.
sorry orior but i'am sure patrica will do ok.
Armagh will struggle to put scores on the board - Derry can win this game - make no mistake about it -
Quote from: charlie stubbs on June 29, 2007, 07:56:51 PM
think toal should definately get a run against derry!
based on what exactly?
saw swift play for harps 2day played some great passes.could be option sat chf instead of kernan?ps i know he not in squad at min
Swift was excellent against Dromintee too, but I don't think he is off the panel for a lack of footballing ability.
was impressed with swift today myself. at last he has started to let the ball do the work, instead of running into corners
Nippy's starting to play the type of football again that got him on the panel in the first place. I wouldn't like to see him go back to warm his arse on the bench again, a good year or two of club football will do him no harm and he'll be the better for it.
Working 12-7 on Sunday, anyword if the game is on the box. Hope so1
Match is definitely not on live, Connacht football final and Munster hurling final is the double header on the TV on Sunday. BBC won't have any coverage, so it's the highlights on Sunday night you'll be relying on Spirit. And with them having to show highlights of all 8 qualifiers I can't see the highlights being extensive.
Maybe a stupid question at this stage but am just double checking this fixture is pay at the gate?
Eugene Murtagh from Longford will be the match referee for Sundays qualifier game against Derry. He refereed the replay of the recent All-Ireland club final between Crossmaglen and Dr Crokes. He should definitely help Armagh's cause. Paddy Russell (that gave the cheap free to Tyrone in 2005 and sent off Ger Reid against Meath in 1999) and John Bannon (depending on his mood, remember Fermanagh 2004) are the worst referee's from an Armagh perspective.
QuotePaddy Russell (that gave the cheap free to Tyrone in 2005 and sent off Ger Reid against Meath in 1999) and John Bannon (depending on his mood, remember Fermanagh 2004) are the worst referee's from an Armagh perspective.
How could you forget Mr B White from Wexford - f><ker!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: PatDaly on July 03, 2007, 04:29:49 AM
Eugene Murtagh from Longford will be the match referee for Sundays qualifier game against Derry. He refereed the replay of the recent All-Ireland club final between Crossmaglen and Dr Crokes. He should definitely help Armagh's cause. Paddy Russell (that gave the cheap free to Tyrone in 2005 and sent off Ger Reid against Meath in 1999) and John Bannon (depending on his mood, remember Fermanagh 2004) are the worst referee's from an Armagh perspective.
In all fairness could you really complain about Ger Reids sending off against Meath. It was waiting to happen.
Any word from the sperrin men on how they're shaping up after last week's championship ties?
hearing a lot of complaints about management emanaing from inside the derry camp and that shouldn't harm armagh's chances.
Did the derry county players allcome through the club championship games? did doherty play for bellaghy? whats the story with kevin mcguckin?
Any likely changes? i'd assume hinphy will start and wilkinson will surely get the bullet? lynch will be a lucky boy to keep his place too.
Does anyone know if there is radio station that broadcasts online covering the match live? Can't seem to get 5FM to work and not sure about any Derry stations ??? ???
Uladh,
All county men who featured against Monaghan played in the club championshop over the weekend past. It appeared to be a case of them being patched up to play for their clubs as some of the more established players were very poor. There has been rumours flying regarding the management set up long before the Monaghan game, going back to last year in fact, but we have to make do with the current incumbant for another week and then he will be off.
Hinphey will start at whb, Murphy will come in as a replacement for Wilkinson and play as whf or 3rd midfileder. He is vastly under rated and a player who can win hard ball and has great feet, even if he lacks a little pace and appears to be battling his weight at times. Kevin McGuckin has no hope of starting as he has only been running in straight lines till very recently, its funny but he would have been more useful for the Monaghan match than this weekends game as I think McCloy is well suited to SMcD.
I cant see a Derry win no matter what scenario I look at. Muldoon will be roughed up, he has never coped with a very physical marker and unless Paddy Bradley beats Armagh on his own I cant see us gettin much more than 10 points. I think this will be a very poor game to watch with a lot of niggle. Derry will probably be fired up to redeem some pride and if Hinphey is marking O'Rourke it could spark it off as neither seems able to concentrate on football for a full 70 mins. I cant see many more than a maximun of 1000 Derry "supporters" making the trip.
Quote from: oakleafgael on July 03, 2007, 03:16:21 PM
I cant see many more than a maximun of 1000 Derry "supporters" making the trip.
Why the big upswell in numbers?
Because they all got double dole in the Maiden city because of the "July" holidays.
Muldoon looks like the obvious problem for armagh. i'd say armag will match mcnulty with him and hope mallon can produce a better performance on bradley thanhe did the last time they met.
Derry simply have to make changes both positional and personnel if they are to have any chance but i wont hold my breath. The management will never make a change unless a man breaks his ankle or does a cruciate or bar that they will bring on a couple of subds for the last 5 when the game has already slipped away from them.
Id get Gerard O'Kane out of corner back and put Lockhart back there to pick up Stevie McDonnell. Hinphy will get the nod at wing back too.
Paul Murphy has to be included. Wilkinson has had a lot of chances but it may be time for him to make way.
I would have Coilin Devlin startin in corner forward.
However a fair few of the derry lads will be drunk out from what i hear after the club games at the weekend there!! :D
Any thoughts?
Well I thought Crozier was a waste of time.
Now I know he is.
id go with
Gillis
Lockhart
Mc Cloy
Mc Goldrick
O Kane
??
Hinphy
Diver
Doc
Murphy
Gilligan
Muldoon
Devlin
Bradley
???
Think Hearty should be replaced between the sticks after the donegal fiasco. Any possible replacements?
So how will Joe & the co. board make sure that those who returned tix for the game in Ballybofey don't get to go this time? ???
They are doing house searches of the Armagh fans and are matching them to photos of the Donegal match from the Cross Examiner.
QuoteThey are doing house searches of the Armagh fans and are matching them to photos of the Donegal match from the Cross Examiner.
:D ;D :D
you throwing your name into the ring nail..
Since the draw I have been worried about this match. Mind you as the draw happened I gasped and oohed and aahed at all the other possible match ups.
We all know that Armagh's failure over the last 4-5 years is scoring outside the full-forward line. The "Kernan" system, and if we are honest the players available, don't lend themselves to putting teams away in the way that Tyrone or Kerry might. What I can't quite work out for myself is, were we to play a different system, would we have won more AIs? I think not.
That means hanging on to the defensive excellence but somehow incorporating a new line of attack. I wonder if Stevie has quite the pace for corner forward any more but am not sure if he could be FF
McKinney
Mallon, Donaghy, McNulty
Vernon, McGeeney, McKeever
Mc Grane, Toner
M O'Rourke, A Kernan
Marsden , P Toal
McDonnell, McConville,
Stupid team?
No changes for Armagh lads despite your calls, same team named
i think derry well b lacken in kicking points and will fad away the last 10/12 min need 2 change there 2 w/backs
Quote from: MacCruiskeen on July 03, 2007, 10:30:11 PM
McKinney
Mallon, Donaghy, McNulty
Vernon, McGeeney, McKeever
Mc Grane, Toner
M O'Rourke, A Kernan
Marsden , P Toal
McDonnell, McConville,
Stupid team?
I'm glad the same team is named, they played very well against Donegal, better than I had hoped for, especially after the league performances.
This game will be a lot tighter than expected, Armagh never beat teams out of sight as said. I think the Clones factor may just help Armagh to a 2 point win!
same team announced and thats what was expected. armagh have more than enough quality to put away what is a mentally fragile derry team. a good start should be sufficient to win the game.
The pessimest in me forsees a problem arising if derry revert to their early form last year, dig in early on and get themselves a lead for half time. as has been said, armagh will struggle for scores. sk and oisin are passengers and paddy mc will very likely be also. with o'rourke playing in defence, thats a huge scoring burden on mcdonnell and marsden possibly against mccloy and lockhart. if derry drop players around those two lads, armagh will struggle massively to break them down. at the back, depending what team derry pick, they could give armagh a headache to match up directly. the problems will be someone to mark muldoon (mcnulty probably), donaghy will have to mark whoever is left over in the full forward line, and finding someone for ak to pick up. joe usually identifies the wealest half forward and starts aaron there, so he'll probably put him of gilligan. this should work wel as gilligan will bring ak forward and he won't have the running power to cause aaron damage. donaghy could be a problem if derry keep lynch inside as he'll have to pick him up and that would be a disaster.
Thatsthe doomsday scenario of course!
Charlie I'm just saying I was some keeper under age like!
Plus if that violent Paddy Bradley got up to anything I'd soon sort him out, game over.
joe kernans a joke picking the same team again, does anyone honestly think that if mckinney had made the same mistake that hearty did that he would start the next day out, and get me started on sk at chf
Ye've nothin te complain about on the mangement front, Christ I wish we could swap. Travesty though it would be, I wouldn't be at all surprised if our lot named the same team again.
Quote from: fer fox ache on July 04, 2007, 08:16:22 PM
Ye've nothin te complain about on the mangement front, Christ I wish we could swap. Travesty though it would be, I wouldn't be at all surprised if our lot named the same team again.
;D ;D
Quote from: Sandy Hill on July 03, 2007, 12:27:53 PM
QuotePaddy Russell (that gave the cheap free to Tyrone in 2005 and sent off Ger Reid against Meath in 1999) and John Bannon (depending on his mood, remember Fermanagh 2004) are the worst referee's from an Armagh perspective.
How could you forget Mr B White from Wexford - f><ker!!!!!!!!!!!
Is there a referee out there who hasn't unfairly penalized Armagh? ::)
You're right re the keeper maverick, sorry I mean TopGun!
What about Charlie Vernon hald forward?
if yez cant beat us
then armagh footbal is really fcuked
FFS, Youse are being a bit harsh on Hearty. Did McKinney not also get caught in no mans land in the league game against Galway earlier in the year. Not surprised that Joe didn't change the team. Thats his form and thats fair enough. I just hope that if he needs to, he makes changes earlier than against Donegal. Would be worried about who will mark Enda Muldonn as I think our Enda will pick up Pady Bradley again.
Other than that Marsden has been getting back to himself and that augurs well. Just to be really controversal I though Stephen Kernan didn't look out of place the last day.
Any word on Clarke or Mallon?
Quote from: Springfield on July 03, 2007, 04:15:13 PM
id go with
Gillis
Lockhart
Mc Cloy
Mc Goldrick
O Kane
??
Hinphy
Diver
Doc
Murphy
Gilligan
Muldoon
Devlin
Bradley
???
Springfield, thank god you are not manager. Armagh are hard enough to bate with 15 players, never mind 13. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think Seany is starting top of the right for Derry ;D ;D
listen.... derry hav'nt a hope against the orchard men..
Paul Hearty is a superb goalkeeper. Anyone criticising him for the goal against Donegal should remember that in The Ulster Final last year against Donegal, he made a great save from Stephen McDermott in the last few minutes. If that goal had gone in, Donegal would have been level.
Its interesting that very few pundits drew any similarities between Armagh v Donegal this year and last year's Ulster Final. A lot of people said after the Ballybofey game that if Ronan Clarke had been playing, Armagh would have scored a lot more. But they scored 1 - 8 in Ballybofey and 1 - 9 last year against Donegal and Clarke did play in last year's game.
Armagh's main problem in the last few years is that on occasion they don't score enough. Against Kerry last year they shouldhave scored more in the first half. Against Fermanagh in 2004 they only scored one point from the 46th minute onwards. Against Donegal in the last two years they've only scored 1 - 8 and 1 - 9. In the All - Ireland semi against Tyrone in 2005, they owned the ball in the first half but only scored five points.
They don't score enough on many's an occasion and yet they have good forwards and get lots of possession. Its not the forwards fault as these are good players. The fault appears to lie with the system of play. They keep so many men back to win possession that when they get the ball, there's hardly anyone in their opponents half.
I would like to see Philip Loughran at full forward to win possession and feed Oisin and Stevie. I'd put Diarmaid at centre half forward and Aaron Kernan at right half forward. I would also have played Paddy McKeever or Peadar Toal but, like Aaron, they are left - footed. So I would probably play Martin O'Rourke at left half forward with Paddy McKeever and Peadar Toal to come on when Diarmaid and Oisin tire. I'd play Charlie Vernon in Aaron's position at half back.
One big problem is that Armagh no longer have a reliable long range ( 50 yards ) free taker. Oisin is the best in the business but he isn't able to take them off the ground any more with his injury and he's not as accurate from the hand, particularly for long range kicks. Stephen Kernan appears to me to be the best option as he can hit fifties and was very accurate from placed balls for the Under 21s. So he may be worth playing at left half forward instead of Martin O'Rourke to kick the long range frees. I thought Stephen did pretty well in Ballybofey - it was his first real start in the senior jersey apart from against Fermanagh last year.
Quote from: gwan-ye-boy-ya on July 05, 2007, 12:00:08 AM
listen.... derry hav'nt a hope against the orchard men..
Aye your rite. Its hardly worth are while even turning up. I think the Sam Maguire should just be given to Armagh now and cut out all the crap in between. Get them an open top bus to parade it round Lurgan and when there at it they could remove some of the unionist flags that are causing all the bother.
i hear clarke and mallon are flying at training ,maybe just maybe if needed.
Are Clarke and Mallon listed in the subs?
F.A.O Paddy Crozier - Paddy if you are reading this please move Sean Marty back to corner back to pick up Stevie McDonnell and get Gerard O'Kane out of there. A straight swap perhaps.
id worry about derry's half forward line if they go with the same as last time, they wont get much change out of A Kernan, McGeeney & C McKeever. aaron will have to be stopped from attacking big time!
How about this,if derry are chasing it like they were against monaghan try sumthin as its last chance saloon, even throw big diver into the full forward line with muldoon and have an aerial bombardment! desperate times may call for desperate measures!
I'd agree with Loup Bandit and also I would put Paul Murphy in to give us a chance to won the 'dirty ball'. PC talks about this but does not have any 'broken ball' winners in the panel (except Murphy). Overall we are just papering over the cracks, Armagh will physically, mentally well prepared for the game but some 'desperate measures' may provide damage limitation
I'd have McKinney in goals, but thats not a recent opinion. Hearty has been getting away with some bog standard errors for a long time through blind luck and the inconsequential nature of the mistakes. Overall, McKinney is a far superior all round keeper imho. for whoever suggested Hearty souldn't be dropped becase of this one error, McKinney made one error against Derry (nfl 2007) in my memory of him playing for the county and shouldn't have been dropped after the league anyway. I don't see what has changed since last season when he was the number one for the championship only to have to withdraw for personal reasons midway through the ulster campaign.
Quote from: armawman on July 05, 2007, 12:56:30 AM
I would like to see Philip Loughran at full forward to win possession and feed Oisin and Stevie. I'd put Diarmaid at centre half forward and Aaron Kernan at right half forward. I would also have played Paddy McKeever or Peadar Toal but, like Aaron, they are left - footed. So I would probably play Martin O'Rourke at left half forward with Paddy McKeever and Peadar Toal to come on when Diarmaid and Oisin tire. I'd play Charlie Vernon in Aaron's position at half back.
Talking about players operating on particular wings or in particular positions in the forward line is well out of date. there are no wing forwards or corner forwards any more, certainly not in armagh's system of play. players play to a pattern and game plan which will bring them wherever the situation requires them. part of the problem of looking blindly at games and judging players' performances is that we can't know what they're being asked to do for the team. for example, o'rourke is obvously playing in the half back line as tony mc entee or john toal used to, yet people consistently talk about his attacking threat and which wing to pay him on! also, marden has obviously been playing as a second centre half forward with sk despite the number on his back and only he did in ballyboffey armagh wouln't have gotten a ball upfield. people still call for him to play centre half forward.
Quote from: armawman on July 05, 2007, 12:56:30 AM
I thought Stephen did pretty well in Ballybofey - it was his first real start in the senior jersey apart from against Fermanagh last year.
Thats both you and Jarleth burns in agreement then. It's unfair to keep hammering the lad for the father's failings but he's been on the panel 4 years now and got more chances through McKenna cup, national league and championship games than long ignored and more talented footballers such as swift, toal, vernon, loughran, donnelly or o'hare, to name but a few.
Regardless of what shape Derry are in at the moment, Armagh normally struggle for scores against any opposition, largely due to a lack of support play up front from the half forwards and, as in the case of the Donegal game, just some downright bad misses in front of goal from the full forwards. This means that if the defence has a bad day and make a couple of mistakes (ala Enda McNulty and Francie Bellew against Kerry last year) we are in deep trouble. I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that neither Vernon nor Toal (barring injuries) haven't been given a start in the half forward line for this game. Both of them have the agility to track back and get forward to give support up front. If any of the half forwards are having a quiet day on Sunday they need to be replaced pronto. Kernan has to be a lot more ruthless in his subsitutions.
McKinney simply doesn't have the height, build or presence of Hearty - things which are even more important now that every other team in the country are finding the biggest fecker they can for FF.
Unfortunately Hearty has always been suspect in the air and there is a fair amount of people in the county who'd consider McKinney more reliable under the high ball.
ogs men?
I've always said he was vulnerable under the high ball – he dropped an awful amount through his hands last few years. But he's a mountain of a man who can fend off all but the biggest and strongest forwards, a good shot stopper with a long accurate kickout. McKinney's was showing up well and was edging into number one before he had to take the time off, but he still hasn't proved it in the heat of summer championship football.
Quote from: Armamike on July 05, 2007, 12:52:00 PM
Kernan has to be a lot more ruthless in his subsitutions.
And what's the reason that Big Joe will see the light all of a sudden this weekend?
It appears that only Armagh posters are realising that we will get it very tough this weekend. The rest of the country presume it will be a stroll, but I fear they are wrong.
As has been mentioned already on this thread we got 9 scores against Donegal, realistically we aren't going to put many on that this weekend given the style of football we play.
Much as it pains me to say, I think that Derry are a cracking bet with a 3 point head start against us. Sure I'd like to think we will win but how many scores are we going to need to beat Derry by 3?
IMO JK has made the correct decision in sticking with Hearty. It is easy to highlight mistakes the keeper make & although ultimately costly if the men up front had taken their chances throughout the game it would have made no difference. Some of the misses were shocking to say the least.
Armagh are a great team defensively but it seems as though our lack of scoring forwards is going to prove costly. By going with the same starting fifteen I think it puts serious pressure on the front 2 to score enough to carry us over the line
You can see where Kernan's thinking is by putting out the same starting 15 but if Mal Mackin is first substitute ahead of Vernon or Toal there may well be a rush for the exit gates!!!
What about the youngest of the O'Rourke brothers from Dromintee. Seen him score a cracker when he captain your U-21 in Cross against our boys last year and he put on an exhibition in the Sigerson, outshining Vernon. He never get a crack?
He is relatively new to the panel Derrymad but next year I expect him to push for a place, he has the talent.
mackers I expect Mallon and Clarke to get a run out on sunday before mackin
Quote from: Uladh on July 05, 2007, 01:40:57 PM
Unfortunately Hearty has always been suspect in the air and there is a fair amount of people in the county who'd consider McKinney more reliable under the high ball.
ogs men?
Hearty has indeed made many's a f**k up over the past few years and I wouldn't have him there anymore, you're right that many have been inconsequential, but he's nearly guaranteed one a game this last while.
Luckily, if Derry play like they did against Monaghan, the ball won't be in the box too often, sure we'd rather hand pass it up the pitch, well, not always up the pitch, but certainly hand pass it - gotta keep possession don't you know.
I was very downhearted after the monaghan game, getting slightly optimistic now tho. maybe we will win, I hope we do. If so, soemone text johnny Borrell so he can announce the score to us rainsoaked revellers at Oxy.cheers
Quote from: naka on July 05, 2007, 02:27:35 PM
mackers I expect Mallon and Clarke to get a run out on sunday before mackin
No chance
For anyone interested in a punt; Paddy Power on the handicap go;
Armagh (-2) 5/6 Derry (+2) 6/5
Armagh (-4) 8/5 Derry (+4) 8/13
any thoughts? personally iw udnt mind gettin derry +3 at about even money....
heads or tails whos gonna win, neither will progress anyway
Quote from: qub la la la on July 05, 2007, 04:39:29 PM
heads or tails whos gonna win, neither will progress anyway
with all thepotential Derry have - I'd agree with that comment about them not progressing too far even if they miraculously hit form and beat Armagh (or more likely Armagh implode and Derry just happen to win with Paddy Bradley scoring everything in a 1 point victory)
However based on what we have seen so far from our lads, I think we would be looking for a turnaround of gigantic proportions. Very unlikely.
If Armagh win, given their stoic defence and tactical nous, plus with men coming back to fitness after inj - there is more in the tank to go close to SAM again should they win on sunday.
Quote from: derrymad on July 05, 2007, 02:13:41 PM
What about the youngest of the O'Rourke brothers from Dromintee. Seen him score a cracker when he captain your U-21 in Cross against our boys last year and he put on an exhibition in the Sigerson, outshining Vernon. He never get a crack?
A panel member was telling me that Miceal O'Rourke has been consistently excellent in trainings etc.. Same fella wasn't too optimistic of any new faces getting a run anytime soon.
I hope to f**k it's Joe's last year.
Quote from: bennydorano on July 05, 2007, 06:06:11 PMI hope to f**k it's Joe's last year.
You might be regretting that for a few years to come. Joe did a great job with Armagh imo, maybe he's holding on to players too long, but there's nothing wrong with loyalty either - up to a point.
Quote from: Bogball XV on July 05, 2007, 07:11:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 05, 2007, 06:06:11 PMI hope to f**k it's Joe's last year.
You might be regretting that for a few years to come. Joe did a great job with Armagh imo, maybe he's holding on to players too long, but there's nothing wrong with loyalty either - up to a point.
He's a bollocks!
I wouldn't just be as succinct as Pints on Joe, but some of his decisions since 2003 have been strange. In his first year in charge of the team he was quick to make changes. Not so in recent times - bringing on players in the 68th minute doesn't add much other than running down the clock. As for being too loyal to the older players - just ask Kieran McGeeney about that.
Quote from: Armamike on July 05, 2007, 10:20:40 PM
As for being too loyal to the older players - just ask Kieran McGeeney about that.
Didnt he take geezer off in the last 10mins or so against tyrone in 2005, allowing S.Cavanagh to run straight through the heart of the defence on a couple of occasions, and it cost us another possible AI
the quicker kernan goes the better.....Bring back BIG PAUL... ;)
Derry Team:
1.Shane O'Kane
2.Michael McGoldrick
3.Kevin McCloy
4.Gerard O'Kane
5.Liam Hinphey
6.Sean M.Lockhart
7.Francis McEldowney
8.Fergal Doherty
9.James Conway
10.Joe Diver
11.Conleith Gilligan
12.Mark Lynch
13.Colin Devlin
14.Paddy Bradley
15.Enda Muldoon
I still find it hard to believe that people would want rid of big Joe. Benny don't let club bias rule your head.
Quote from: Uladh on July 05, 2007, 01:40:57 PM
Unfortunately Hearty has always been suspect in the air and there is a fair amount of people in the county who'd consider McKinney more reliable under the high ball.
ogs men?
I would prefer Mckinney, hes a quick thinking keeper and can kick short and long balls accurately.
I can't believe that you're saying that Hearty has ALWAYS been suspect in the air - it must be a different Hearty that I've been watching ???
Its always been his achilles heel. right through underage football with the county and frequently for cross. Its the reason Joe dropped him when he got the county gig in 2002 and coaxed tierney out of retirement.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 05, 2007, 07:49:01 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on July 05, 2007, 07:11:36 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 05, 2007, 06:06:11 PMI hope to f**k it's Joe's last year.
You might be regretting that for a few years to come. Joe did a great job with Armagh imo, maybe he's holding on to players too long, but there's nothing wrong with loyalty either - up to a point.
He's a bollocks!
I suppose you are annoyed he never recalled Barry Campbell as sub keeper.
Quote from: Uladh on July 06, 2007, 10:16:54 AM
Its always been his achilles heel. right through underage football with the county and frequently for cross. Its the reason Joe dropped him when he got the county gig in 2002 and coaxed tierney out of retirement.
Don't like to have a go at the lad, but there is truth to what Uladh has said. He cost us a goal against Down in Casement Park, in the qualifiers in 2001, and if memory serves me well was then bailed out when he repeated the dose as Down threatened an unlikely victory.
Similar in 2003 against Dublin. High ball in and Hearty dropped it and was lucky that Francie was there to bail him out. Donegal this year was therefore not without precedent.
That said, he has other strengths that Armagh depend on - his kickouts for one. Ciaran McKinney is a very good keeper but may fall down on the length of his kicks compared to Hearty. I could see arguments for both being the number one.
The most glaring high ball mistake has to be the one in cross against errigal in the ulster club. simlar to the cassidy one, he took his eye off the ball coming across the goal and completely missed it, allowing the towering canavan to collect unopposed and sink them.
McKinney's kick out is longer than the average county kick out, its just that hearty's is extraordinary. the common complaint though is that noone has any idea where its gonna land and why armagh so frequently lose the break ball count against less physically equipped teams.
Looking at the derry team named, devlin could be something of a surprise for armagh. could that mean he'll play up front with bradley and muldoon would drift outfield? Devlin can be a very dangerous wee bugger on his ballinderry fom and armagh will do well to be wary of him.
will the introduction of McEldowney mean moving o'kane to the half back line? i assume so though one of him or McGolderick will have to follow Marsden outfield and neither will be fit for that job.
Uladh, your right about Coilin Devlin, Armagh will do well to offer him the respect he deserves.
One thing is for sure with Devlin, he will continue to make great runs and create space. If the right ball goes in EARLY he could do damage.
Not sure if McEldowney will play in the corner, if he was he should just have been named there but god knows what Crozier will do. ???
id like to see Lockhart go back onto McDonnell.
I expect Hinphey and O'Rourke to have a good physical tussle, and i can bet my bottom dolar that both will get booked! :D
is b gillis dropped or injured? other than that, at least croziers made some changes, recognised some of our failings the last day...
Gillis has surely been dropped!! His kickouts are terrible. He just thumps everyone of them up the middle. O'kane i don't know what his kickouts are like. Seen the screen keeper lately there and his kickouts were excellent, surely worth a look.
Paul Hearty is a great goalkeeper. He has saved Armagh and Crossmaglen on more occasions than I care to remember. Ciaran McKinney is also excellent. Armagh are very lucky to have two goalkeepers of such high standard.
Big Joe will go down in history as the first Armagh man to deliver AI & NFL titles, make no mistake- he's done very well. IMO he's fast approaching the Pete McGrath point. The thing is if he goes this year, it's quite likely that McGeeney, McGrane & McNulty may decide they've had enough and it's time for wholesale changes, if that happens Armagh's fortunes will dip for a while, which no doubt will give people reason to say that since Joe left we've went downhill.
Hearty's confidence couldn't be great, shortly after Ballybofey he had a total 'mare against the harps in the championship. I'd still prefer him to McKinney, he can throw one into the back of the net like the rest of them.
Have you Derry wans seen the video of a Loup man diving into the urinal at Casement? Yeuk!
Quote from: Orior on July 06, 2007, 01:30:56 PM
Have you Derry wans seen the video of a Loup man diving into the urinal at Casement? Yeuk!
Whats this all about? :D i aint seen it anyway but now you have mentioned it i'll be sure to get hold of it this weekend!
Slightly disappointed in the team selected. We don't have a lot of options in the forwards without Clarke and Mallon but I still think we could shuffle a decks a little better.
On the goalie arguement, I've always thought McKinney was shockin unlucky last year not to playa gainst Kerry. Effectively he was dropped because his da died. Although in fairness Hearty did well when he came in. I'd slightly prefer McKinney but don't think there's that much in the difference.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4LO-jh8XwNI (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4LO-jh8XwNI)
a bit like this loup bandit
McKinney is getting married on Wednesday and is going on honeymoon for a few weeks. Thats probably why JK is keeping Hearty is for Sunday.
cannot believe you armagh lads
you have a manager that has full exp of playing at top level
a manager who has done it at club level on a few occassions
a boss who has won the AI and was unlucky to win a couple more
but yet
you wish to get rid of the likes of francie and Kernan
are you lads f**king mental
most of the country would love to be in your position
:o :o
In fairness Lynchbhoy, Francie is injured and i dont there's too many armagh supporters on here who doubt that Francie's been a great servant and well worth his place since 2002 and a deserving All Star.
As for Kernan, it depends which one. aaron is an ecellent footballer, Stephen shouldn't be on the Armagh starting XV in my opinion. That said, who am I to argue with a man who has 4 All Ireland wins as a manager.
On Joe, personally I think he took Armagh to All Ireland sucess when very few could have lifted Armagh from the point they were in after the Glaway defeat in 01. Aidan O'Rourke was consoled by a Galway player after that match with words "Sure you'll be back next year." Aidan turned round to him and replied "Na, we're finished". To take a team that thinks its finished itself to All Ireland success in 12 months is some achievement.
Personally I continue to think Joe Kernan is the best man for the managers job but I accept that there have been some decisions made since 02 that people find hard to understand and have the right to criticise. Three that stand out are persisting with Clarke at right half forward during 03, taking McGeeney off in the 05 semi final and starting a player in the 06 and 07 Ulster Championships who can't nail down a place in his club.
People will criticise and no doubt Joe's fit to handle it but when you follow your county up and down the country your entitled your opinion. Thats not a free reign to fire personal abuse but there is a right to constructive criticism. It happens in every county and there's not a thing wrong with it.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 06, 2007, 11:20:00 PM
In fairness Lynchbhoy, Francie is injured and i dont there's too many armagh supporters on here who doubt that Francie's been a great servant and well worth his place since 2002 and a deserving All Star.
As for Kernan, it depends which one. aaron is an ecellent footballer, Stephen shouldn't be on the Armagh starting XV in my opinion. That said, who am I to argue with a man who has 4 All Ireland wins as a manager.
On Joe, personally I think he took Armagh to All Ireland sucess when very few could have lifted Armagh from the point they were in after the Glaway defeat in 01. Aidan O'Rourke was consoled by a Galway player after that match with words "Sure you'll be back next year." Aidan turned round to him and replied "Na, we're finished". To take a team that thinks its finished itself to All Ireland success in 12 months is some achievement.
Personally I continue to think Joe Kernan is the best man for the managers job but I accept that there have been some decisions made since 02 that people find hard to understand and have the right to criticise. Three that stand out are persisting with Clarke at right half forward during 03, taking McGeeney off in the 05 semi final and starting a player in the 06 and 07 Ulster Championships who can't nail down a place in his club.
People will criticise and no doubt Joe's fit to handle it but when you follow your county up and down the country your entitled your opinion. Thats not a free reign to fire personal abuse but there is a right to constructive criticism. It happens in every county and there's not a thing wrong with it.
to a certain extent I agree with you
but
as a manager, you will have some ideas and notions that some folk will not see or believe
thats football and thats part of being a manager
its thes little variations from the accepted and expected norm that make the diff between a successful team and the Derry;s of this world
I think you lads dont know how lucky you are
I actually think Derry could cause an upset here. Derry have plenty of weaknesses but are capable of raising their game for Armagh. After the Donegal game Armagh got a lot of good press but at the end of the day they were defeated by a Donegal team who subsequently went on to flop against Tyrone. The jury is still out on Armagh and they will need to be on their game to win this one.
Quote from: loughshore lad on July 07, 2007, 09:40:34 AM
I actually think Derry could cause an upset here. Derry have plenty of weaknesses but are capable of raising their game for Armagh. After the Donegal game Armagh got a lot of good press but at the end of the day they were defeated by a Donegal team who subsequently went on to flop against Tyrone. The jury is still out on Armagh and they will need to be on their game to win this one.
Am I the only one that wouldnt see a Derry win as an "upset"?
QuoteAm I the only one that wouldnt see a Derry win as an "upset"?
Well I think we deserve to be slight favourites but no more than that. Just like during the National League, the odds on Armagh are ridiculous. 4/9 is very short. I'd have us closer to 4/6.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 07, 2007, 10:04:07 AM
Am I the only one that wouldnt see a Derry win as an "upset"?
No, i'm half expecting it
Armagh 2-13 Derry 1-10.
QuoteArmagh 2-13 Derry 1-10.
Stew, it is hard to see Armagh scoring 2-13, if Derry get 1-10 Armagh fans will be concerned. I think we can win here, the McGeeneys and McGranes didn't stay on the team to get knocked out of the championship after 2 straight defeats. If Derry put it up to us and we win by a point that will a reasonable result for all concerned, Derry will have their pride back and there won't be big talk about Armagh. Ideally someone like Donegal, Mayo or Meath will have a big win and keep the heat off us.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 06, 2007, 11:53:29 PM
[
I think you lads dont know how lucky you are
Well put
The way I look at it lads, that is a team that should have more than one All- Ireland.
QuoteI think you lads dont know how lucky you are
When Armagh played Derry in 1999, not many thought we'd be destined to be in the top 4 teams in the country for the next 8 years (at least). Kernan has played his part in that, you can say he should have done this or that, with the benefit of hindsight, but even a good manager cannot work miracles. I'd say if some of youz had been at the miracle of the loaves and fishes, youz would have complained that you didn't get steak and chips.
QuoteThe way I look at it lads, that is a team that should have more than one All- Ireland
I don't disagree with that in the slightest but, if Kernan hadn't taken over in 02 there's a good chance they wouldn't have won any.
Quote from: corn02 on July 07, 2007, 05:46:48 PM
The way I look at it lads, that is a team that should have more than one All- Ireland.
I disagree, I think you got as good a return from that team as could be expected - I think the likes of Tyrone have a lot more in terms of raw ability than Armagh, but Armagh's work ethic (indivuals and team) meant that they were able to match the best teams in the country.
I know you can talk about McGeeney being took off against Tyrone, but I don't think yous would have beaten Kerry in the final - if any title got away it was probably 2004.
All in all lads, you got what, 6 Ulsters, 1 All Ireland, 1 All Ireland Final and an NFL - not bad going. Derry's best ever era yielded just 2 Ulsters, 1 All Ireland and several hundred NFL's!!
Absoultely TAC, I agree that if he did not take over in 02 we probably would not been able to take the step but we were knocking on the door and I think it might have came in that year no matter who was in charge.
03? Tactics in the final a bit suspect.
04? Was John McEntee dropped for shouting at Aaron at the Ogs game?
05? Cavanagh said seeing McGeeney going off gave him and the team the lift to go on and finish the game, enough said.
06? Outclassed, simple as that.
Joe will forever have an esteemed place in armagh football for landing the first sam, but that achievement has increasingly changed his outlook and more particularly his treatment of players. to post his irregularities and tactical faux pas since 2002 would take an age. don't forget, the team's core traits of work ethic and physicality combined with direct football were there before he came in and can be attributed to players.
The arrival of his sons on the panel has cost the team in many ways. many will claim that there is no longer the same steely team ethos that the all ireland was won on. players resent perceived bias in selection, treatment & substitutions, stories are carried from team meetings, and the style and gameplan of the team is seen to have been changed entirely to suit firstly one, and now two players. whether some, all or none of these things are true is largely irrelevent as its now obvious that players believe that they are and team spirit cannot survive that unscathed.
Unfortunately, the infallibility that came with winning armagh's first sam has allowed joe to increasingly believe he can chase armagh's goals whilst carefully placing his personal goals first. unfortunately, all irelands cannot be won unless the good of the team is first and foremost, and to hell with who gets to be on the field when the ball is thrown in.
Quote06? Outclassed, simple as that
I actually thought in '02 you were more outclassed than in 06 but came thru by showing more dogged determination. Kerry were unable to hit a cow's arse with a banjo in the last 25 mins of the '02 AIF.
Lets hope they don't clash in colour like the Casement game 2 years ago - my auld eyes aren't up to it anymore.
Heading now, They will do the same Bogball and it will be a joke.
Are there any internet radio feeds of the commentary ?
Highland might be broadcasting it. I'll let you know.
They are yes.
Yep, Tom Comack/Martin McHugh commentary.
cheers lads. thought i wasnt even going to here the match.
Go raibh maith agat
any undate?
Derry 0-5 Armagh 0-3, two minutes left in first half
0-5 to 0-4
Apparently Derry keeper has gifted two scores to Armagh
Armagh 0-4 derry 0-6
thanks for the update,
once again rte aertel is awol. quiet funny if you have the time to try to look up the score. where do they get these people
0-6 0-4 derry are up half time.
Quote from: joemamas on July 08, 2007, 04:38:51 PM
thanks for the update,
once again rte aertel is awol. quiet funny if you have the time to try to look up the score. where do they get these people
Its live on Highland radio
live on www.fivefm.co.uk as well
thanks for updates.
I can't even find the score on aertel despite the headline "hurling/football latest scores"!!!! >:(
Highland radio keeps breaking up on me.
There are score updates on BBC Northern Ireland too PoG, bit slow but better than aertel it seems.
We'll keep you updated on this thread.
armagh seem to be living off scraps and havent got going at all. do ya think vernon is coming on for Toner at half time then?
i havent heard much mention of S Kernan. surely a CHF should be in the game more!
thanks lads
Kevin Dyas (sp?) on for Ciaran McKeever
James Lavery on for Toner
Stephen McDonnell scores a 45
subs for armagh
Dyas is on for C McKeever (picked up an injury)
Lavery is on for Toner
stevie scored a 45
QuoteKevin Dyas (sp?) on for Ciaran McKeever
jesus!
aaron kernan misses a free
his brother scores the point
McDonnell puts Armagh in front
McConville from play
8 to 6
Armagh dominant, but hitting some poor wides
Paddy Bradley free
8 to 7
15 minutes gone
There's some eejit from another radio station screaming his commentary in the background! :D
Stephen Kernan makes it 9 to 7
Jaysus could somebody get Tom Comack a f**king programme,
has he got a name right yet?
Joe Diver coming into midfield for James Conway
Bradley scores a free
Quote from: Tyrones own on July 08, 2007, 05:14:52 PM
Jaysus could somebody get Tom Comack a f**king programme,
has he got a name right yet?
He's as bad with Donegal teams!
cheers j70, keep it coming
Armagh are keeping Derry in it with misses
Some big lad who's name I missed comes on for Paddy McKeever.
Joe Keenan on for Liam Hinphey.
What's wrong with your hook up to Highland Pints?
I have no problems here at all.
was it paul keenan? or did i mix up the keenans?
it keeps breaking up to buffer, probably my internet connection which is shite!
Barry McGolderick misses a free from way out on the sideline
Still 9 to 8
Think it was Paul Keenan
Apparently its brutal stuff all around!
Paddy Bradley 35m free levels it.
Mark Lynch wide for Derry.
Oisin tries to steal a few yards - ref hops the ball ;D
Oisin McConville 40m free for the lead... wide
2 minutes
Keenan wide
Colin Devlin point for Derry!!!
Derry win!
Its over!
Derry win 10-9 :o
christ
end of an era?
*shakes head*
cheers J70 appreciated that.
jaysus armagh missed chance after chance there.
Last championship game there for a few big names there...
Derry's only point from play in the second half was the winner!
Armagh threw it away.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 08, 2007, 05:34:24 PM
end of an era?
Theyve lost both championship games this summer from a winning position, the Armagh side of recent years would have put Donegal and Derry away.
The inability to put Donegal away was not a one-off.
Cant believe that result, were Armagh that bad?
this result doesnt surprise me. the derry players took that much stick over the monaghan game that there was only way that they were going to respond. afraid now derry are going to go on a run like 01 and 04.
unbelievable! thats 2 games thrown away this year
Martin McHugh reckons the ref missed a blatant foul on Keenan in a scoreable position just before the winning point.
If there are prominent retirements after this on the armagh side, what a dissapointing way to go out. Armagh may have failed to deliver on the promise of 2002. half a decade of trying and failing on the big stage (with the exception of the ulster championship dominance). Football will be the loser when alot of those guys take their final bow. Was this it?
Absolutely delighted!! Wat a result for Derry ( one i predicted all week )... yes Armagh kicked themselves outta it, but who cares!
The lads have done themselves proud, and have showed that with a bit of apllication they are capable. Just a pity we always have to produce an inept display to get this out of them.
Armagh obviously should have had a blatent free near the end, but going by the commentary from Jimmy Smyth and Adrian McGuckian he was terrible throughout.
Just shows what Derry can do if they play as a team and work hard for each other. remember this is a team that has been given no game plan to play to. Raw ability, guts, hard work and endeavour won through today. Not getting over excited about the result as its only a qualifier, but this Derry team is a lot more capable than most people think.
Whats the odds on us drawing Fermanagh????!!!!!!!
Just in response to previous posts from Armagh people. For so called supporters to be giving off stink about Joe Kernan and how they should have won more than one all-ireland, is beyond ridiculous. Somes up the arrogant attitude of Armagh people when they honestly believe they have the devine right to won everything every year. You have achieved a massive amount of success over the last 8 years or so, be grateful!!!
Here we go, feckin marty morrisey and the qualifier draw!
Derry draw Mayo!!
Quote from: Oak Leafer on July 08, 2007, 05:54:10 PM
Just in response to previous posts from Armagh people. For so called supporters to be giving off stink about Joe Kernan and how they should have won more than one all-ireland, is beyond ridiculous. Somes up the arrogant attitude of Armagh people when they honestly believe they have the devine right to won everything every year. You have achieved a massive amount of success over the last 8 years or so, be grateful!!!
Oak leafer, just incase you think im suggesting armagh should have won more than one all ireland, all im saying is that the players would have firmly believed they should have. Not necessarily the fans. In either case, im a tyrone man, and im happy with our two... ;)
derry will take mayo if it is played in that hellhole fortress celtic park. was only it once back in 92 and will never set foot in it again. hope they decide the venue is not up to scratch and play it somewhere like breffni - that is mayos only chance.
Quote from: clarshack on July 08, 2007, 06:07:39 PM
derry will take mayo if it is played in that hellhole fortress celtic park. was only it once back in 92 and will never set foot in it again. hope they decide the venue is not up to scratch and play it somewhere like breffni - that is mayos only chance.
Or Dr.Hyde ;D
I wouldn't say thats Mayos only chance, we no gaw-daws either.
Wan't there but heard on Radio Ulster that McGuckian ( Derryman) said that the ref missed a glaring free for Armagh that would have won the match. He said it summed up the refs performance that he was absolutely woeful to both teams. Still if Armagh are not able to beat this Derry side they have no business going any further. Without taking knives out maybe its time to draw a line and start afresh. Thank God I stayed home to watch the hurling
I'm sure Marsden feels good after finally relenting to 4 years of constant pressure to pull the boots back on. :-\
Not that big of a shock. Derry usually have one good performance in them (a good Derry performance means scoring 10-12 points and stifling the opposition) every year. Armagh have really struggled all year and the loss of Clarke and Mallon was insurmountable on top of the internal difficulties. Had Clarke been there, they'd still be in the draw and maybe an Ulster Final. That's how tight the margins are now. However even with Clarke Armagh are still rank outsiders with the likes of McGeeney and McConville, despite the experience they bring, liabilities in certain aspects of the game.
As for Derry, that's the toughest draw - v Mayo. Simply cannot see them scoring enough.
What was going on with McNulty and Bradley? "Is this how you did it?"
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42478000/jpg/_42478558_armagh3.jpg)
I have to laugh at the computer nerds giving their expert opinions without actually attending games. Reading many of the posts You would think Armagh were so much better than Derry and Derry stole the game because the ref did not give Armagh one deserved free. i was at the game and I thought the ref was very generous to Armagh - He gave them many soft frees and was inconsistent. The game was close and hard fought with Derry managhing to score a couple of vital scores near the end for a deserved victory
I hate to say I told you so, but what the hell ::)
Quote from: Smokin Joe on July 05, 2007, 01:55:24 PM
It appears that only Armagh posters are realising that we will get it very tough this weekend. The rest of the country presume it will be a stroll, but I fear they are wrong.
As has been mentioned already on this thread we got 9 scores against Donegal, realistically we aren't going to put many on that this weekend given the style of football we play.
Much as it pains me to say, I think that Derry are a cracking bet with a 3 point head start against us. Sure I'd like to think we will win but how many scores are we going to need to beat Derry by 3?
And how many scores did we get today?
I really have nothing more to add.
I thought Derry probably deserved it - Armagh were shockingly bad. I didn't think the ref was great either way, and there's no way that he favoured Derry - although to listen to the Armagh woman behind me - no actually, I wouldn't wish that on anyone - she was funny for about 30 secs, but when she was reduced to 'hop on home ref' after he awarded yet another hop ball, oh the guffaws, I can hear them now.
It should also be pointed out that Uladh was spot on when it comes to Hearty and the high ball - he managed one clean catch out of three today.
gutted at the result and more so at the way we played. good luck to derry you took your chances and that is that. as i said before what is c vernon doing sitting on the bench in such notable company as mal (oops) mackin. we were bad on the field but brutal on the line .show over.
shite result / Shite referee
Don't understand how Pat McAneaney can be on the line and thon Ball***s is given the whistle!!!
Derry's 4 second half scores came from "soft" frees and a blatant throw ball for the winner. Just before that, one of the Derry backs had a saddle on Keenan's back as he was clean through - no free!!!
Any chance there were good odds for a Derry win? -we know which team the ref had his money on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-[ :-[ :-[
Anyway, good luck to Derry - hope you dispose of Mayo but some improvement may still be needed. In truth, I really feel the ref robbed us blind today but the present Armagh team, especially without Clarke and Mallon, were going to struggle against any of the top teams. There was a clear lack of pace up front and too little scoring threat to greatly trouble the better teams who we would've met later on. There is also an absence, in my opinion, of runners coming out of the middle of the park with the ball and taking on the opposition defenders.
I see the knives are (still) out for Joe and son Stephen - I felt Stephen Kernan had a fair game today. He grafted well and tirelessly but should have come off for the last 15 - 20 minutes as he was punctured. Oisin should have been rested then as well, although despite his lack of pace he does pose our greatest goal threat at present.
Some rebuilding may be needed, but not the major surgery some will no doubt be calling for!
On a happier note - Chinese has just arrived :D :D :D
For some reason, as an Armagh fan, I find myself breathing sigh of relief this evening. I think today has been at least two years coming, and it definitely signals the end of an era. Joe Kernan and this team deserve nothing but credit for what they have achieved since 1999, it was a long stretch, bringing our first All Ireland, first National League and Ulster after Ulser after Ulster. As a result, I cannot see Armagh retreating to the dark days of the 80's and early 90's.
But today had to happen sometime, and it might as well have been today than in the next game or the one after that......were they ever really All Ireland contenders this year, definitely didn't look like it today.
QuoteGood ridance to Joe, and he can take Stephen with him.
Pints,
You are a sick and bittler little man and Armagh is as well without your support if this is all you can say.
This statement says more about you than it does about Joe Kernan.
Quote from: Armagh Exile on July 08, 2007, 08:47:59 PM
QuoteGood ridance to Joe, and he can take Stephen with him.
Pints,
You are a sick and bittler little man and Armagh is as well without your support if this is all you can say.
This statement says more about you than it does about Joe Kernan.
What do you want me to say exile? Cry that Joe's leaving? You must be joking, I can't wait to see the back of him and I think you'll find I'm not on my own!
Pints,
Joe Kernan has won 1 All-Ireland, 1 National League & 5 Ulster titles for Armagh.
What have you done for Armagh?
Quote from: Armagh Exile on July 08, 2007, 09:00:53 PM
Pints,
Joe Kernan has won 1 All-Ireland, 1 National League & 5 Ulster titles for Armagh.
What have you done for Armagh?
Joe Kernan or Paul Grimley?
Joe will always be remembered for winning sam etc but he'll also be remembered as a man who put personal grudges, family and club loyalties before the county team!
Every manager reaches their sell-by date eventually.
Brian McEniff is far and away the best and most influential manager Donegal ever had, but I was happy to see him step down in 2005, given the ill-discipline and inconsistency that was plaguing the Donegal senior squad over that previous year.
(Some might say little has changed, but at least a new man and new players have been given a shot).
I'm with Pints on this one.
I hate this crap about the referee, he was not that bad and he certainly did not favour Derry. Jesus Christ for the first fifteen minutes any time an Armagh man was touched we got a free although Keenan defientely should have got that one in front of goals.
Where to start? Same old story, Joe plays with the two withdrawn half forwards. It always comes back to haunt the team, O Rourke is perfect for the job, let him stay back and keep McKeever up the field or hopefully someone else in his place.
Derry could have been 4 or 5 up at half time, Armagh some how kept it to two at half time, although I felt Derrys point just before the interval was crucial. In the first half best for Armagh were McNulty, O Rourke and McKeever (Ciaran). McCloy sweeped up every high ball that went in.
The second half saw a better performance for the most part. Players like S Kernan and McGeeney came into it more and young Dyas did very well when he replaced McKeever. But in the end that final push for the win caused them as Derry broke on the counter and struck the winner.
Notes from today:
Aaron Kernan is a terrible, terrible defender. Sure three points a day from half back looks great in the papers, but when your man skins you to the point where you blatantly foul everytime speaks volumes. A superb player on the ball, a brutal defender. Please move him to the half forwards.
McConville is now officially a passenger. It was hard to believe he was playing today. No runs, no speed, poor shooting. How did he finish the match. Do not give me the useless answer that he will get you a goal, his general play was shocking.
Our defence as usual was solid. Keeping the opposition to 10 points is a good return as usual our forwards looked dodgy.
Toner and Donaghy looked very poor today, especially Toner. Lavery looked like a good player when he came on as did Dyas.
The end of an era, and thankfully Joe has to go today. Stephen had a good second half but it is clear as day he is not good at this level.
The future? A llok at the bench today showed O Rourke, Vernon, Toal, Dyas and Lavery. The end of an era surely but some excellent players to fill the boots.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 08, 2007, 08:58:15 PM
What do you want me to say exile? Cry that Joe's leaving? You must be joking, I can't wait to see the back of him and I think you'll find I'm not on my own!
Joe's not leaving.
Quote from: Armagh Exile on July 08, 2007, 09:00:53 PM
Pints,
Joe Kernan has won 1 All-Ireland, 1 National League & 5 Ulster titles for Armagh.
What have you done for Armagh?
4 ulster titles....
and he
helped win them
It's the end of a truly remarkable and sensational Armagh era - Joe should be congratulated - not pilloried !
I would thank the players.
QuoteIt's the end of a truly remarkable and sensational Armagh era - Joe should be congratulated - not pilloried !
Well spoken, Orangeman, agree with your sentiments entirely.
Quote from: corn02 on July 08, 2007, 09:31:49 PM
I would thank the players.
Agreed
QuoteJoe's not leaving.
Dont say that uladh!
Poor display again by Armagh going forward. But not really all that surprising in light of the league performances and the absence of Clarke etc. Always disappointing to lose in injury time, but Armagh just weren't good enough to pull away in the last 15 mins. That's 2 games, 2 defeats - not good reading. The really disappointing thing for me was that the lack of switches and subs used again. Dyas only got a run out due to McKeever's injury. He did really well. The only other sub was Lavery for Toner, who got hauled off after a misplaced pass. Seemed a bit harsh. The half forward line YET AGAIN was crying out for a change - McKeever and S Kernan were poor again. But Joe stood and did nothing until 10 mins from the end with Keenan coming on for McKeever. Too little, too late. From the first minute of the game the Derry half back line were attacking at will. Charlie Vernon must be wondering what he has to do to get 5 mins championship football under Joe Kernan. Maybe a new management set up would give him his chance.
It's time to look to the future and give more of the younger lads a go. Any of the new faces that have been tried have done well - pity Kernan didn't put his faith in another one or two of them, who will now have to wait until next year to taste championship action (Vernon, Toal, Forker, O'Rourke etc). This will probably be the end of the road for 4-5 household names - players who've given unbelievable service to the county over many years. It's not a nice way to end a county career, but a football career is like politics, usually ends in failure!
We have been to Croker in the championship every year since 1999. A thank you to the players and ALL the managers involved over this period.
Believe me lads, Armagh football will be back as strong next year.
Quote from: corn02 on July 08, 2007, 09:50:28 PM
Believe me lads, Armagh football will be back as strong next year.
Hope not 2 losses is 2 games isn't exactly strong! I think you guys are being ultra optimistic about the Armagh Senior team, even with good players and decent management it will take 2-3 years for the players to gel together and get the necessary inter-county experience.
On a more positive note, hopefully club football in Armagh will improve with having county men available again (another issue with JKs management).
02 look at the two losses, we outplayed Donegal and should of taken Derry but did not score for the last twenty minutes. If we had of came through either one of these one point defeats would people still be talking of the death of Armagh football?
I agree with you corn02 these were very small margins, and a lot of Armaghs' success came on the back of small margins but we were consistently on the right side of them. But if we are looking at rebuilding, realistically it will take a few years to get up to where we have been.
The only people talking about Armagh football being dead are the Down supporters and I guess it's a welcome change after 12 years of mourning their own countys' demise.
if you regard success as ulster titles then fair enough. They no longer hold the same reverence as they used to.
To present aramagh have failed to fill their own ambition, players and management would confess to rhis. The fact of not winning a second all ireland will forever haunt this group of players and management.
What did joe say about the difference in good teams and great teams? ::)
I was at both Armagh's games this year and each was almost a carbon copy of the other.
The big push in both games, the old 'turning of the screw' phase we've come to expect from Armagh, simply didn't yield enough scores to secure the game in either Ballybofey or Clones today. A two point lead was a poor reflection on the degree to which Derry were suffocated out of the game and on the ropes in the third quarter.
Once the lead was secured, Armagh appeared to sit back and allowed a spirited but still extremely limited Derry side to keep in touch with frees, some of them very soft - Aaron Kernan's free to the wee red haired lad, and the one Fergal Doherty absolutely bought prior to that were as cheap a pair of frees as you'll see. Armagh won a few handy ones too but none of them coughed up easy scores like these frees that were instrumental in keeping a pulse in a Derry team that barely got out of their half at times in second half.
Armagh only woke up in the last minutes when they generally have a divine right to win games but panicky option-taking, poor execution and admittedly fantastic defending from Derry (as it had been all day) kept them at bay. The sucker punch duly arrived when Derry won the game with the first score from play in the second half, deep in injury time on the counter attack - with Geezer notably on his knees without the puff to get up and chase back. I struggle to even recall other Derry attempts on goal from play in the second half save for the punched effort that went wide shortly after the break.
Still, it's up to Armagh as a genuine Sam Maguire contender to punish these shortcomings in their opponents and they failed to do so either against Donegal or now Derry, so tough shit I suppose.
Finally, could some people cutting up big Joe wind their necks in. Talk about an ungrateful shower. Fine, maybe it's time for him to move on but not with rancour ringing in his ears.
That was as poor a Derry team as I have seen in years, and they beat Armagh - enough said! When we look back on the two matches this year, the one thing that will stand out will be the lack of a scoring threat. In this regard, the loss of Clarke and Mallon were catastrophic. Essentially we were reduced to Stevie as the one forward with a real cutting edge. The pressure then begins to tell. There is also a general lack of incision throughout our forwards. What one of our attackers can beat a man for speed and take a point? With Clarke in there, the high ball would have worked as before - but Stevie and Oisin are not going to benefit from that against that Derry defence.
Good luck to Derry, and to their supporters who bothered to turn up today - hope they go well.
For Armagh, the inquests will obviously begin - it is clear though that something needs to change to freshen things up, e.g. some combination of management, personnel, tactics.
A depressing day, although one that has been on the cards for a long time now. There will be interesting days ahead!
A very fine summation Cavanmaniac! I thought the referee suited Armagh in the first half but really helped Derry across the line in the last quarter. To have to read criticism of the legend that is Joe Kernan from somebody who obviously spent the match reading updates from a Donegal man who was listening to Highland Radio is just plain ridiculous!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Bensars on July 09, 2007, 12:02:22 AM
To present aramagh have failed to fill their own ambition, players and management would confess to rhis. The fact of not winning a second all ireland will forever haunt this group of players and management.
I very much doubt that the Armagh lads who retire now will spend the rest of their days being "haunted" by not winning a second All-Ireland. They made history by taking Sam to their county for the first time, thats what these boys will rightly dwell on in the future. I also find some of the stick that Joe Kernan is getting on here to be well out of order, he did a superb job to keep Armagh at the top end of the game over several years and brought great success. My own personal opinion, and Ive no doubt most of the Armagh folk will disagree, was that he got more out of that group of players than perhaps he had a right to. His only real mistake, and that of a few of his stalwarts, was maybe staying on a year too long.
I can see Armagh taking a bit of time to regroup now but writing them off would be crazy, still plenty of class in there.
Bigpaul
QuoteTo have to read criticism of the legend that is Joe Kernan from somebody who obviously spent the match reading updates from a Donegal man who was listening to Highland Radio is just plain ridiculous!!!!!!!!
Have you something to say?
I have already said it!
::) Great argument then.
Someone who wasn't at the match can't comment on Joe Kernan's reign as manager ::)
From memory I don't think you were at Ballybofey either! Can you not see the irony, even from your position?
No wasn't in ballybofey either, for numerous reasons (and for the first time in my life) I decided to stay away from both games.
I don't see any irony nor do I see how it affects my position to comment on Joe Kernan.
Not going to Ballybofey 'for numerous reasons' and 'I decided to stay away' don't really stack up! If you can't see the irony, well, you wouldn't be big into comedy then!
Your constant criticism of all things Kernan and use of invective against the familly actually undermines your argument!
Quote from: bigpaul on July 09, 2007, 01:26:36 AM
Not going to Ballybofey 'for numerous reasons' and 'I decided to stay away' don't really stack up! If you can't see the irony, well, you wouldn't be big into comedy then!
Your constant criticism of all things Kernan and use of invective against the familly actually undermines your argument!
You haven't explained to me how me not going to two games means I can't comment on Joe Kernan. He has been manager since 2002. If I wasn't at the games because I live outside the country would I be allowed to comment?
QuoteYour constant criticism of all things Kernan and use of invective against the familly actually undermines your argument!
That's just wrong. I think you'll find I have never criticised aaron, have often defended him and I actually think he's a fine role model, particularly around Cross.
I have no issues with Stephen, the lad jsut isn't county standard and that's it, it's not his fault.
Apart from Joe, and my criticism of him has never been personal, I have never said anything about the rest of the family.
You're always allowed to comment,but you can't deny me the right to compare your dedication to Armagh with Joe Kernans'!
'Good riddance to Big Joe and he can take Stephen with him', quite a difference in tone to your last post Pints! In addition your constant use of the phrase 'flapping about' has been degrading!
Quote'Good riddance to Big Joe and he can take Stephen with him',
I don't see anything wrong with that.
Can you not see the difference in the tone between that quote and your last post?
Nope.
goodnight
The depth of your reasoning underwhelms me!
Realisation has sunk in today. Feeling fairly sick.
I hope no rash decisions are made this week by management or players. The winner yesterday was Armagh club football. The players will get a long long break from county football. & hopefully we won't see the mass retirements that most expect.
- Lads take your time & wait untill the end of the year before any decisions are made!!
Some of the criticism is harsh here; the guys are out doing their best. Unfortunately they weren't good enough on the day, again!
Unfortunately Armagh's lack of pace & guile in the forward line has cost us again. However the calls for Charlie Vernon will not improve this part of our team, no matter how good a footballer he is; his game is more about strength!!
Looking at the future, it would have been nice if young Forker or Peader was introduced, simply to get a taste of hard hitting Championship football... I don't believe this would have won the game for us yesterday, but it would stand to them when they come into the team next year!!
Unlucky lads - good effort!!
Quote from: cavanmaniac on July 09, 2007, 12:27:44 AM
I was at both Armagh's games this year and each was almost a carbon copy of the other.
I didn't see the correlation, Armagh were totally outplayed in the first half, and only the two points gifted by the Derry keeper kept them in it in the first half.
QuoteThe big push in both games, the old 'turning of the screw' phase we've come to expect from Armagh, simply didn't yield enough scores to secure the game in either Ballybofey or Clones today. A two point lead was a poor reflection on the degree to which Derry were suffocated out of the game and on the ropes in the third quarter.
Yeah, I expected them to go on from there, not due to their own brilliance, but because Derry supporters are born pessimists - but in truth, they didn't create anything and have very few options up front.
QuoteOnce the lead was secured, Armagh appeared to sit back and allowed a spirited but still extremely limited Derry side to keep in touch with frees, some of them very soft - Aaron Kernan's free to the wee red haired lad, and the one Fergal Doherty absolutely bought prior to that were as cheap a pair of frees as you'll see. Armagh won a few handy ones too but none of them coughed up easy scores like these frees that were instrumental in keeping a pulse in a Derry team that barely got out of their half at times in second half.
Don't remember the Doherty free, but Devlin's was a definite foul from where I was (about 20yds away).
QuoteI struggle to even recall other Derry attempts on goal from play in the second half save for the punched effort that went wide shortly after the break.
Yeah, we didn't have much, but Wilkinson should have goaled there, that was imo the only genuine goal chance in the game.
QuoteStill, it's up to Armagh as a genuine Sam Maguire contender to punish these shortcomings in their opponents and they failed to do so either against Donegal or now Derry, so tough shit I suppose.
I don't think they were genuine contenders this year - maybe a year too far, especially without Clarke.
QuoteFinally, could some people cutting up big Joe wind their necks in. Talk about an ungrateful shower. Fine, maybe it's time for him to move on but not with rancour ringing in his ears.
Totally agree.
Quote from: clawaddy on July 08, 2007, 08:08:48 PM
I have to laugh at the computer nerds giving their expert opinions without actually attending games. Reading many of the posts You would think Armagh were so much better than Derry and Derry stole the game because the ref did not give Armagh one deserved free. i was at the game and I thought the ref was very generous to Armagh - He gave them many soft frees and was inconsistent. The game was close and hard fought with Derry managhing to score a couple of vital scores near the end for a deserved victory
Totally agree with this comment. The ref gave in time and time again to armagh players and management harrassing him and even in some of todays papers i read the he gave a lot of inexpicable frees to armagh...so stop the whinging about one free at the end yous thought yous should have got. Aaron kernan fouled mcgoldrick all day and armagh got a couple of scores as a direct result when the ref didnt blow him up, so no point complaining.
This was a tremendous performance from this derry team (I for one thought it would be the end of the year for us b4 the game). Remember we are also missing two players who are as important to us as clarke and bellew are to armagh in Muldoon and Kevin Mcguckain. So injuries cant be blamed for a defeat either. On the day, Derry deserved the win and most of the Armagh supporters around us said the same thing when the match was over.
Can we beat Mayo? If we can beat Armagh there's no reason why not, but this Derry team can never be relied on to put 2 performances together, so who knows. Here's hoping though.
Hard luck lads, there were mistakes made on the pitch and on the line, but the fact remains that this unbelieveably dedicated group of players owe us absolutely nothing.
Thanks for all the good days. Still legends, one and all.
QuoteThe ref gave in time and time again to armagh players and management harrassing him and even in some of todays papers i read the he gave a lot of inexpicable frees to armagh...
The only example of this is when, in the 2nd half, the ref changed his mind & give Derry a free in (which they scored from!). He initially gave the free to Armagh...only for a roar from the 40 Derry Supporters to change his mind!!
In 3 of the last 4 years the teams that have knocked Armagh out of the championship have went on to win Sam?
What price Derry to do it?
Blasmere, you are more correct than you think you are. The statistic is that since 1999 (with the exception of 2004) any team that put Armagh out of the championship goes on to win the All-Ireland! Put the house on Derry!!
Bar the Keenan incident the referee can not be questioned, for me he was more genourous to us than Derry.
At the stage we are now I think it will actually be better for the suspected players to retire. For 2008 which would you rather? One final effort from the old guard which will probablt come up short or the adaption of the younger players in place of the legends that are leaving? For me a year or two in the backseat is fine by me as long as we start knocking on the door soon, which we will.
our inability to win breaking ball cost us dear.
Its easy for Armagh people to analyse the game without giving credit to a good Derry performance. They have excellent players in McCloy, McGuckian, Lockhart, Doherty, Muldoon, Bradley, Devlin and have a bit of wickedness about them in the shape of men like McEldowney. If they had a decent manager they'd do well.
When it came to breaking ball we were a bit hopeless. But it really depends on our ability to get the first hand to the kickouts and in that respect Derry were on top. Lavery seemed to give us some impetus when he came on and drove us on in that department to score 4pts without reply.
Derry seemed that bit fitter and hungrier for the dirty ball in the middle third for most of the match and that was the platform for their win.
Quote from: Goats Do Shave on July 09, 2007, 11:12:09 AM
QuoteThe ref gave in time and time again to armagh players and management harrassing him and even in some of todays papers i read the he gave a lot of inexpicable frees to armagh...
The only example of this is when, in the 2nd half, the ref changed his mind & give Derry a free in (which they scored from!). He initially gave the free to Armagh...only for a roar from the 40 Derry Supporters to change his mind!!
I remember the incident you mention alright, but it was an obvious Derry free, the ineptitude of the ref was show up again though as he pointed the wrong way then caught himself on.
On 2 occassions I sam him give Derry a line ball correctly only for "big" joe and and stevie mcd come running and jumping and shouting at the ref. On taking the line ball the ref promplty blew his whistle and gave a free to armagh for nothing that I could see. Armagh scored a point directly from one of these and indirectly from the second just at the start of the second half.
Also the number of times Aaron kernan got away with fouling and indded was given the free was scandalous. I even read one of the other Armagh poster commenting on this earlier. It seems the referee was too weak to stand up to Armagh crowd and management.
One of the other Armagh poster posed the question why was pat macaneany on the line when he should have reffed the game. I agree completely. It was probably the biggest qualifier match and should have ahad the best referee. Not some week nobody who wanted to make a name for himself.
I think both sides would agree that the ref was awful, from a Derry perspective we felt he favoured Armagh more, but then I'm sure Armagh fans probably feel they were hard done by. Nature of the game.
Armagh will be there or thereabouts next year regardless of whether Kernan and his old guard leave, but as for the enigma that is this Derry side who know what lies ahead. On our day can beat anyone, but we could also get beat by anyone. Here's hoping we get a few more days in the sun anyway.
QuoteUnfortunately Armagh's lack of pace & guile in the forward line has cost us again. However the calls for Charlie Vernon will not improve this part of our team, no matter how good a footballer he is; his game is more about strength!!
Goats it's all about opinions, as we won't get to see him in action this year now, but I'd disagree with you about Vernon. Vernon's strength is a big attribute for a lad his age trying to make the breakthrough at senior level. I watched him in all the U21 games this year and his direct running, breaking from around the middle was great to see. In the championship game against Cross a few weeks back i thought he was very impressive. IMO he would have been well worth a try in the Donegal and Derry games - i think he would have offered us a lot more going forward.
Quote from: Armamike on July 09, 2007, 01:59:10 PM
QuoteUnfortunately Armagh's lack of pace & guile in the forward line has cost us again. However the calls for Charlie Vernon will not improve this part of our team, no matter how good a footballer he is; his game is more about strength!!
Goats it's all about opinions, as we won't get to see him in action this year now, but I'd disagree with you about Vernon. Vernon's strength is a big attribute for a lad his age trying to make the breakthrough at senior level. I watched him in all the U21 games this year and his direct running, breaking from around the middle was great to see. In the championship game against Cross a few weeks back i thought he was very impressive. IMO he would have been well worth a try in the Donegal and Derry games - i think he would have offered us a lot more going forward.
...But then again in the league against Galway for example, he was out classed...& out strengthed around the middle! - Possible because he's more of a defender!?
EDIT: I must make it clear, I am a fan of Charlie...I just don't see him as the answer to all Armagh's forward problems. I actually look at him more as Geezer's replacement, as his distribution would be better than Ciaran McKeever's!
The problem isn't going forward Goats. Its what to do when we get there.
The full forward line was winning ball mainly from 30 yard passes into the corners. Stevie and co. were not able to take on and beat their Derry opponents yesterday and in truth Armagh's full forward line were unable to do just that in the National League against weaker defences. In fairness this has not been a huge part of the gameplan since Joe took over.
What's more, the full forwards were not inclined to turn and shoot over their shoulders on receiving the ball. Something I know Stevie can do well, but for some reason they hadn't the confidence to try. Often when the lads should have been shooting for points they passed the ball across the forty with noone taking responsibility unless there was much more time and space available.
Confidence has been low in this quarter for a while now. A new gameplan, the return on Brian Mallon and Ronan Clarke and the introduction of a few talented U21s should change that.
I thought he did really well against Galway in the league! He was poor in the Derry game as he was played in the unfamilar role of CHF - looked as if he was totally lost there. All i know is, in the U21 games he seemed to have a bit of freedom to roam from right half forward, get on the ball and run at defences.
It is difficult to understand the criticism of Stephen Kernan. He scored two excellent points yesterday. For the first point, he created loads of space for himself by sidestepping the Derry defender. The problem for Armagh was that they couldn't get enough space to shoot, so any player like Stephen who can create space like this is certainly worth his place on the team. The second point was also a great effort from distance.
Armagh only scored nine points in total and Stephen scored two of the best of them, so what's the problem? He is only a new member of the championship team, so what do people expect from him ? Do they expect him to score five or six points? This year Armagh have needed scoring forwards, but when a fellah like Stephen comes along and scores a few great points, some supporters slag him off. He plays in the half forward line so two points in a game is a very good return from a half forward.
Supporters are meant to get behind the team and management. If everyone roared Stephen on and encouraged him and built up his confidence, I'm certain that he would score even more. Remember he comes from very good stock, his father was a superb forward and Aaron is also excellent. Stephen was brilliant during the Under 21 All Ireland and Peter Rafferty had great faith in him.
And anyway, he's obviously made of stern stuff because he's stood up against any of the abuse which he has received and proved his doubters wrong with two great scores yesterday. Fair play to you Stephen.
I think the criticism of Stephen Kernan comes more from the sheer frustration felt when Joe has taken numerous players on to the panel, has never given a chance or given them 10 minutes in a league game, either kept them sitting on the bench for 12 months before dropping them or dropping them immediately. Compare this with the treatment Stephen got.
Stephen is struggling to make the Cross team, do you think a Stephen Smith, a player struggling to make the Dromintee team (for example) would be given the same treatment that Stephen Kernan got? You could bet your house he wouldn't and rightly so!
He has had one good half of football in how many games playing senior for Armagh and suddenly Joe was right? Nonsense.
Agreed Pint, one good half does not prove the doubters wrong and from what I hear Peter Rafferty had no choice but to put his faith in him.
Encouraging to see his second half performace, alot more needed to convince me though.
Just from some one outside of Armagh, i think the criticism about stephen kernan is unjutified. he didnt do so bad against Donegal and done well yesterday. maybe you should be looking elsewhere, its a right while since paddy mc keever had a big game. He was excellent in the all-ireland semi against tyrone in croker in 2005 but since that his form has dipped something shocking. A player i always rated very highly.
as for s.kernan not making the cross team, its no bad team! murtagh maybe seen others guys would be for effective just in that particular team, doesnt necessarily mean they would have it at county level but kernan might and could do a job.
Like mark harte, he will always come in for criticism cos of his dad.
I think any County manager who includes a player who's not making his club team will come in for criticism!
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 09, 2007, 04:08:03 PM
I think any County manager who includes a player who's not making his club team will come in for criticism!
So who should have been on in his place then? Surely if there were men going well in training and pushing for their place they would get their chance? as i said paddy mc keever has been in poor form for some time now, i would have thought he could have got the chop.
Thought Philly Loughran would have got a run out.
Pints,
Joe Lennon didn't play an awful lot of football for his club Aghaderg but he won three All-Ireland SFC medals with Down in the '60's including being captain of the winning 1968 team.
Going by your criteria he would not have won one.
Just admit it, you have something against the Kernan family and are taking it out on them on this Board which I think is a disgrace.
was surprised philly didnt come on considering he warmed up for about 30 mins.
Quote from: Armagh Exile on July 09, 2007, 04:38:49 PM
Pints,
Joe Lennon didn't play an awful lot of football for his club Aghaderg but he won three All-Ireland SFC medals with Down in the '60's including being captain of the winning 1968 team.
Going by your criteria he would not have won one.
Just admit it, you have something against the Kernan family and are taking it out on them on this Board which I think is a disgrace.
I'm getting a bit fed up of this allegation that I have something against the Kernan Family, in response to a similar allegation last night I said:
QuoteThat's just wrong. I think you'll find I have never criticised aaron, have often defended him and I actually think he's a fine role model, particularly around Cross.
I have no issues with Stephen, the lad jsut isn't county standard and that's it, it's not his fault.
Apart from Joe, and my criticism of him has never been personal, I have never said anything about the rest of the family.
I am not the only one saying Stephen shouldn't be near the team and I'll be glad to see Joe going so I don't know why I'm in the firing line!
I wasn't born in the 60s and have no idea of the circumstances surrounding Joe Lennon being on the Down team when he wasn't playing with his club. I would imagine that a player being on a county team while not making their own club team is an exception, not the norm!! It does not take a genius to see there is something wrong when this is happening.
Also we'd a player from my own club on the county team when he wasn't making our club team a few years ago, that was also wrong, but like Stephen it was not his fault, the blame lies with the manager.
Kernan unrepentant after ref rage
Kernan says he will take time out before deciding on his future
Joe Kernan remained unrepentant on Monday after his outspoken criticism of a late refereeing decision in Armagh's qualifier defeat by Derry on Sunday.
Kernan described Meath referee Eugene Murtagh as a "clown" after the game which Derry won by 0-10 to 0-9.
"I'm always available to speak. If the powers-that-be want to do that, that's okay," Kernan told BBC Sport.
Kernan repeated that he will take time out before deciding about his future in the Orchard County job.
There has been widespread speculation that this year would be the Crossmaglen man's final season in charge but Kernan said that he would "sit down with the county board in a month or so".
Prior to that, Kernan plans to go on holiday which will offer him the opportunity to mull over his future.
A night's sleep had done nothing to dissipate Kernan's frustration on Monday morning.
"It's very, very frustrating that the future of teams can be decided by a mistake," added the Armagh boss.
I thought we played very well at times and especially in the second half
Joe Kernan
"A referee's job is to do what is best for both teams.
"There was one incident near the end of the game where it was a blatant free which would have put us a point up."
The incident in question was when Paul Keenan appeared to be fouled by a Derry defender on the Oak Leafers' 13-metre line.
Moments later, Derry won a free on their own deep in the Armagh half and Colin Devlin pointed to clinch victory.
Kernan felt his team had deserved to win Sunday's game.
"I thought we played very well at times and especially in the second half when we controlled most of the play.
"Twice we went two points up and that was probably the stage when we let it slip. We made a few chances and I felt that if we had gone three or four points up, we probably would have won the game.
"It's just disappointing and we know how much our players have put into this."
I feel the future is still good for Armagh because we have quality players coming through
Joe Kernan
Despite Sunday's disappointment, Kernan insists that the future remains bright for Armagh football.
"We've been trying to rebuild a team since 2002. We've introduced an awful lot of new faces. Six or seven of the 2002 team played yesterday.
"I feel the future is still good for Armagh because we have quality players coming through."
Kernan has confirmed that he will not take another intercounty job when he does stand down from the Armagh role.
"You could never go out to send another team out against your own team. That will be the case when I do step down."
Kernan added that he was "proud" of his players.
"Just look at what these boys have done for Armagh over the past 10, 15 years. We're all disappointed but give everybody a chance. Don't nail them to the cross because of today.
"Nobody gave more than these boys here."
In addition to the manager, there will also be speculation about whether Armagh veterans such as Kieran McGeeney, Paul McGrane, Oisin McConville and Diarmaid Marsden will opt to play on at intercounty level.
Did big joe say anything similar after the 2005 Ulster final fiasco?
Joe put the spotlight on the stayaway supporters after the Donegal game, now it's the ref's turn. There's no point in Joe blaming the ref. It shouldn't deflect away from the main issue, which was the team's inability to turn possession into scores, again. Armagh should not have let themselves get into a position where one bad refereeing decision could swing it. The question i would like Joe to answer is why he waited until the 60th minute to make a change to the forward line and why 2 or 3 individuals who were contributing very little were allowed to stay on the pitch.
armawman
QuoteRemember he comes from very good stock, his father was a superb forward and Aaron is also excellent. Stephen was brilliant during the Under 21 All Ireland and Peter Rafferty had great faith in him.
Just reading over your post again I felt the need to comment on this...
That sort of shite sickens my hole, a county team should be picked by gathering the 30 or so best players in the county, their father (or club) should have nothing to do with it, to many teams are picked like that and if Armagh want to rebuild the last thing we need is a manager with your attitude. Heaven forbid they have patdaly's either!
Quote from: 5iveTimes on July 09, 2007, 05:23:37 PM
Quote from: Armagh Exile on July 09, 2007, 04:38:49 PM
Pints,
Joe Lennon didn't play an awful lot of football for his club Aghaderg but he won three All-Ireland SFC medals with Down in the '60's including being captain of the winning 1968 team.
Joe Lennon is one of the greatest players ever. The same could not be said of any of the Kernans. If I was to be critical of Big Joe, he does seem to favour his own, maybe you cant blame him for that, but he should stop and think what it looks like from the outside.
Any manager who would 'stop and think what it looks like from the outside ' should not even attempt to do the job!!!!!!
[/quote]
I'm getting a bit fed up of this allegation that I have something against the Kernan Family, in response to a similar allegation last night
Quote
Why are people getting that impression pints, they can't be picking it off the ground!!!!
that a county senior team would want to pick an excellent u21 player?- really your logic is losing me here. from what i've been told he's good enough to be in the top 30 players. From what i've seen in both championship games he's been one of your better players- he certainly played well yesterday. If he was called Stephen Smith there wouldn't be a problem . I suppose with a new manager we'll find out now.
It's going to take a while - i don't see armagh having tyrone's conveyor belt and replacing the likes of mc geeney and mc grane - mc conville will be difficult. Either Crossmaglen take in every promising underage player in the county or the other clubs have simply given up- but their domination isn't doing Armagh any good anymore. Some of the other clubs need to step up to the plate.
Quote from: bigpaul on July 09, 2007, 07:18:53 PM
I'm getting a bit fed up of this allegation that I have something against the Kernan Family, in response to a similar allegation last night
Quote
Why are people getting that impression pints, they can't be picking it off the ground!!!!
I dunno bigpaul, maybe because they're knobs.
They're all out of step except yourself pints!
Well it's only you and armaghexile making allegations seemingly based on three of my comments..
one saying good riddance to joe and he can take stephen with him, one calling Joe a bollocks and my use of the term "flapping about" when describing stephen on the field.
Suddenly I have some sort of vendetta against "the family". ::)
I can't speak for anyone else, but I formed my opinion over the previous six months!
QuoteIt's going to take a while - i don't see armagh having tyrone's conveyor belt and replacing the likes of mc geeney and mc grane - mc conville will be difficult.
I would think any county would stuggle to replace players of that standard. Tyrone's 'conveyor belt' is overstated. There is a consistently good level of talent coming through but do you think the likes of Canavan, O'Neill, McGuigan, Dooher, Jordan and Cavanagh will be easy replaced? The younger lads coming through will have a lot to live up to.
QuoteI can't speak for anyone else, but I formed my opinion over the previous six months!
And what comments did I make that made you form that opinion?
I don't have access to all your posts pints, but that is the impression I got.
You've access to all my posts through my profile.
But you and exile can go ahead making stupid unfounded allegations if you want.
There's posters saying bad things about Joe in the Local section of the board maybe you want to go and make the same allegations against them!
I have absolutely no problem defending any Kernan! It's an easy assignment really, their record speaks for itself!
Quote from: INDIANA on July 09, 2007, 07:19:58 PM
If he was called Stephen Smith there wouldn't be a problem .
There'd be no problem... he wouldn't be on the county panel
I would think any county would stuggle to replace players of that standard. Tyrone's 'conveyor belt' is overstated. There is a consistently good level of talent coming through but do you think the likes of Canavan, O'Neill, McGuigan, Dooher, Jordan and Cavanagh will be easy replaced? The younger lads coming through will have a lot to live
but you can see the next generation- tommy mcguigan-niall gormley-colm cavanagh-raymond mulgrew etc etc- i'm not saying armagh don't have a next generation but nobody has seen them and i'm not sure they're in tyrone's league.
QuotePerhaps the Hogan success of Abbey may help Armagh and Down.
Was there not only two or three of that team from armagh?
McGarvey and Dyas were two, who else?
Young James Shannon and Cailaim Quinn from Mullaghbawn were on the squad but I am near sure Dyas and McGarvey were the only Armagh 'starters'. Interesting to see the two main men from the respective teams Dyas and O Rourke getting thrown into the spotlight on the same weekend.
Don't forget Cavanagh and Jordan etc were Armagh college men!
Quote from: ONeill on July 09, 2007, 11:40:48 PM
Don't forget Cavanagh and Jordan etc were Armagh college men!
Both Cavanaghs, Jordan, Mellon, Cormac....
& 2 Harte's & Devine now teach in the college! (& Big Mattie!)
Quite a few Armagh lads played with St Patrick's Academy Dungannon. Lads from clubs like Maghery, Clonmore, Annaghmore, Collegeland would go to school in Dungannon.
AFAIK Lavery, Donaghy and Forker were all pupils at St Pats Academy Dungannon.
Having just watched this on Setanta and just now returned to GAABoard, being unable to face it, her is my 2c worth. This might have been a close game with a narrow Armagh victory, which I hoped for on Saturday. When we got going in the second half we didn't press home our advantage and dissipated it with silly mistakes, balls over the sideline and so on as the second half went on. There were silly mistakes in the first half too and a an extra point at this stage might have been enough. The 5 week layoff might not have been to our advantage.
I don't think the ref robbed us, this was more true in Ballybofey. Keenan was certainly fouled near the end, but the ball spilled and he got it again, before then losing it. This could have been an attempt at advantage. Keenan should have hung on the second time, having already done the hard work, but the Derry backs were effective. He also ballooned a shot a few minutes later. Ronan Clarke would have done better in this situation.
QuoteIt's just a thought from an Armagh person looking outwards from Tyrone with a level of dispair for the future and a memory stretching back to my first league match in the Athletics Ground in 1967 which was delayed while Armagh looked for enough players to field a viable team!
TYP I came on board the Armagh supporters bus as a 1977 bandwagoner. After that period Armagh at their worst never fell back to the problems of the decade before. That period brought us the likes of McAlinden and Big Joe who have lead us into a period of much greater success. Hopefully the higher standards of recent years have left attitudes in Armagh which can ensure success.
Watched it on Setanta myself and a few observations. Poor standard of football from both sides. On Sunday i thought young Toner was harshly treated being subbed, but watching it again on tv, he was badly caught in possession a few times, which led to a score or 2 for Derry. He will probably learn a lot from this though. McConville wasn't up to the pace at all, just wasn't able to get out in front of his marker. If Clarke had been playing we would have won the game with a few points to spare. Derry should never have been in with a shout of winning the game with a few minutes to go. Dyas will be a great player in years to come.
The only things I can be sure about are
1. Its definitely time Paddy mcKeever, Oisin and Marsden retired (all great players but they are past it now)
2. Paul McGrane and Enda McNulty have maybe 2 more years
3. Kieran McGeeney might have one last year and could be used for the 2nd half only in matches
4. Aaron Kernan should be moved into the half forward line
5. Kevin Dyas should take Aaron's place in the half back line
6. McKenna from Crossmaglen should get his chance in midfield
7. Pints of Guinness and Stew should be the new joint Armagh managers - 2 wankers full of shite talk
Paddy is 27 like! :o
Oisin's form may not have been helped by Cross success. As he has always put it in for club and county he has had very long seasons since Cross won the AI in 97 and something has to give somewhere. He could still be a dangerous impact sub, but probably can't continue to play the central role he has for the last decade.
Between Crossmaglen and Armagh's continued success McConville has hardly had a proper rest in years so it's little wonder if he's slowing up. Maybe a good rest now would do him the world of good.
Paddy McKeever could be a good case of burnout. Was he not nearly playing for Armagh while still at school? I mind reading reports of McRory matches where other teams had to put 2 or 3 boys on him.
Quote from: PatDaly on July 11, 2007, 02:12:57 AM
The only things I can be sure about are
1. Its definitely time Paddy mcKeever, Oisin and Marsden retired (all great players but they are past it now)
2. Paul McGrane and Enda McNulty have maybe 2 more years
3. Kieran McGeeney might have one last year and could be used for the 2nd half only in matches
4. Aaron Kernan should be moved into the half forward line
5. Kevin Dyas should take Aaron's place in the half back line
6. McKenna from Crossmaglen should get his chance in midfield
7. Pints of Guinness and Stew should be the new joint Armagh managers - 2 wankers full of shite talk
1. Paddy needs an awful kick up the hole, but he's too young to dispense with. The other 2 boys - impact subs maybe?
2. One year at the very least. McNulty is as good now as he ever was.
3. Dont think so - A fresh approach is needed, too much is centred around McGeeney, an the legs may have gone.
4. Agreed
5. I'd rather Vernon, McKeever & Duffy - but Dyas will hpefully be pushing hard next year for a starting place.
6. He turned down a place on the panel this year, but that could be all the better in the long run, as he got regular football with Cross - might be the man next year.
7. :o
patdaly
Quote7. Pints of Guinness and Stew should be the new joint Armagh managers - 2 wankers full of shite talk
oooooooohhhh
An easy enough job according to you, gather up the players with the most medals and we've an all Ireland winning team.
McConville should take a wee lay off from football, from a footballing viewpoint he should probably sit out Crossmaglens next championship match just to regroup the batteries.
Quote from: corn02 on July 11, 2007, 11:24:34 AM
McConville should take a wee lay off from football, from a footballing viewpoint he should probably sit out Crossmaglens next championship match just to regroup the batteries.
It doesn't matter corn, yous will still choke :P
Patdaly 1-6 are probably on the nail, I think Oisin will quit, would love to see Paul and Enda stay with Geezer as an assistant manager. Mckeever has only really played in fits and starts and no longer contributes scores like the old days, rem the drawn game against tyrone in 2002
Quote from: corn02 on July 09, 2007, 02:40:53 PM
from what I hear Peter Rafferty had no choice but to put his faith in him.
/quote]
I can assure that assertion is totally wrong!
On this occasion I would appreciate it if you or pints would stay about to debate the issue rather than just ignoring my post and moving on to another thread!
What issue ami ignoring paul?
Sorry pints, just got a phonecall. This time last week you left a debate with me about the Kernans and chose to inore it since!
i understood it was finished. i'm not sure what else you want to debate. point it out and i'll be happy to.
You just posted 'nope and goodnight' and never revisited the subject, does that mean that I was right?
we left it with me telling you that you could access my posts through my profile and i asked you what comments i made in the last 6 months to make you think i'd some vendetta against the kernans. now i've to be up for work in 6 hours so i'll look forward to reading your evidence tomorrow evening.
OK, I'll have to go and trawl through six months of posts. I will be back,I hope there's nothing to hide in there!
No evidence?
And I was looking forward to it all day!
Pintsofguinness, whats your problem with the kernans? jealousy perhaps?
no offence
FFS pint has no problem with the Kernans, he questions Joes playing of his kids whilst better men have sat on the bench and he feels that there is a south Armagh bias in his selection, both points have some validity to them. Jealousy has nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Loup Bandit on July 22, 2007, 10:43:54 AM
Pintsofguinness, whats your problem with the kernans? jealousy perhaps?
no offence
I have no problem with the Kernans.
I have a problem with the way Joe kernan managed the team and with the way he played his son, who's not making his club team!
Quote from: hardstation on July 22, 2007, 05:14:31 PM
He posted madness on about 27 threads this morning so I wouldn't take his post seriously.
He will do well to avoid the WUM police. Probably still wrote off.
i seen him ther at the screen v loup match.....i think he's sober now